Dense-Discussion3951 | MIN

89 | 4 hours ago

But you know the refs aren’t gonna call the aggressive defense like that

fetuswut | MIL

83 | 4 hours ago

They call it based on reputation lmao. AJ Green tried the aggressive on ball defender gimmick and they just would give him fouls like crazy. You need a baseline reputation before you get to foul the shit out of people

tehachapitotonopah

10 | 3 hours ago

How do you build a reputation as a physical defender without starting to play physical defense?

When Caruso was drafted did he automatically get put on the NBA’s list of physical defenders that deserve a good whistle on D?

I agree some of this is reputation-based. Just not sure when and how that reputation is built by each player.

In other words, in order to make refs swallow their whistle because of one’s defensive reputation, seems like you need to play physical defense long enough before refs give up trying to call everything on you because if they did you’d foul out every game.

I’m honestly curious why JJ, instead of complaining about it, doesn’t adopt it and get the Lakers playing more physical defense. Because I’ve yet to see coaches complaining about refs result in them actually changing the way they call the game. Typically complaining about refs just ends up getting you a fine.

DeathsIntent96 | ORL

16 | 3 hours ago

You need a reputation as a good defender, not a physical one. Play good legitimate defense for a while and then you’re allowed to get handsy.

Works for teams as well as individual players. Jalen Suggs, back when he was still a good defender, got away with a lot more than most perimeter players would. But the Magic as a whole also got away with playing physical because they had a reputation as one of the best defensive teams in the league.

fetuswut | MIL

10 | 3 hours ago

IMO because some players come into the league as bad defenders, and once you get that rep it’s pretty hard to change it in either direction.

Carusos main shtick coming into the league was physical defense on ball handlers. He came in day one doing that exact thing and has played for 10 years doing that one thing.

It’s usually vets/seasoned players who get to hack, team also plays a pretty important role in it as well. Over the last 10 years it’s mostly been eastern conference teams kinda leaning into the physical foul but not a foul kinda defense, like the Heat Celtics Raptors and Bucks.

Now it’s teams like the Rockets/Spurs/OKC. I think general team narrative has a role to play in it as well

RapsareChamps_Suckit | TOR

15 | 4 hours ago

I miss Tim Donaghy

whiterice_343 | MIN

22 | 4 hours ago

Outjerked again

butt_fun | LAC

8 | 4 hours ago

Foster has a comeback year in him. I just know he can turn back the clock if he locks in

whiterice_343 | MIN

7 | 4 hours ago

Joey Crawford died for this shit

Asleep_Ground1710 | CHI

173 | 4 hours ago

Yeah, perimeter defenders are taking from the OKC/Spurs model of mugging you on and off ball

Given the rampant amount of travels, carries by lead guards and the insane amount of illegal screens I do get it though

Terrible_Shelter_345

39 | 4 hours ago

And I feel insane because I was early on this Thunder hater wagon but only like 1% of the reason was SGA free throws and 99% of it was the weird slack the refs gave their defenders every other fucking night

Megaman_320 | SEA

9 | an hour ago

Thats exactly it for me lmao. Its fine if you cant touch shai, and its annoying that he flops blatantly so goddamn much, but the problem is that they give the thunder defense so much leeway, that its so disproportional to watch. You saw Wallace, (formerly a part pf the thunder) Dort and Caruso mug, hack, and push you mid air on one end, then you see shai get almost phantom calls on the other, and the same Wallace and Dort go down at the slightest contact on offense.

Either call soft fouls both ways, or swallow your whistle both ways.

mannheimcrescendo

9 | 4 hours ago

The 2nd part

CummingInTheNile

6 | 3 hours ago

Its more the NBA allowing offensive players to use their off arm to build space, not even counting the blatant push offs, ballhandlers will often stab their off arm in to the defenders midsection/quad to help them turn the corner or use it too hook guys to get around them

Green-Discussion74

3 | an hour ago

just turn basketball into football, you can carry the ball while the defender tries to tackle you

yeungryan | GSW

14 | 4 hours ago

My guy, defenders are taking from the Steph rules but apply to all.

Federal_Aardvark2387

14 | 4 hours ago

It’s sad that they don’t just officiate the game by the rules. It feelslike the wrong escalation keeps getting made by the league

rang15 | LAL

3 | 2 hours ago

Yeah, perimeter defenders are taking from the OKC/Spurs model of mugging you on and off ball

Don’t forget Detroit. But yes, seeing the success of those teams it makes sense for all teams to apply this kind of pressure, especially if they have the personnel to pull it off. Also the refs are not rewarding the foul baiting from offensive players as much and are calling more of the push-offs (though not all of them). So it’s kind of a perfect storm for this to become the new NBA style defense.

tehachapitotonopah

17 | 3 hours ago

I’m torn.

I don’t want to watch free throws all game.

But I also don’t want mugging to become the norm for NBA defenses.

DoorBreaker101 | CHA

2 | 2 hours ago

If refs consistently called it, players would adapt and stop playing this way.

Same with traveling or whatever other missed calls you may notice.

You would be watching free throws all game for a very small number of games if this happened.

Gontofinddad

26 | 4 hours ago

Refs can’t call every foul, because there’s a time slot they have to manage. They also don’t want to seem partial, so when there’s a bad call or excessive fouls in one team, they pay it forward on a different possession and equalize the influence they have by evening out the calls.

This leads to a situation where teams that foul relentlessly, just get to do that. The fix is for every team to adopt that mentality, and handcuff the refs from their whistle, because there’s a time slot that must be met.

Or you can try to fix the refs, but that’s not going to work. It has to avalanche until the commissioner demands that they approach the problem differently. But this has been status quo since the 90s.

ItsNotForYouJen01101

11 | 4 hours ago

Refs can call every foul. If it is as bad as Reddick says, then they call it twice in a row at the start of the game and these players should be smart enough to adapt. I struggle to get mad at the defense on these plays when you have so many flops and bullshit head rip backs that looks like they’re auditioning for the three stooges, that if someone fouls on defense it is impossible to get a call right. Stop the flop and you stop the defensive fouls. Reddick knows this and his player is in the running for the SGA 2026 flopper of the year award sponsored by IHOPs flop jocks

a_guy121

8 | 3 hours ago

Yes, one could even argue ‘calling every foul’ is their whole job.

I think JJ may be priming the refs to give calls to the warriors or trying to cancel out a particular tactic. Its unwise to take such things at face value

spiattalo | NBA

4 | 2 hours ago

Refs can call every foul.

And when they do everyone complains about the “refs wanting the spotlight” and other nonsense.

ItsNotForYouJen01101

1 | 8 minutes ago

I can’t fix morons, but I would really appreciate it. Obviously how it impacts the play should matter but not as much as it does

NotTheMamba | LAL

3 | 3 hours ago

If they made the calls then the other team would have no choice but to adapt and play ball. They wouldn’t just keep fouling and lose the game lol.

CartoonsAndAppleJack | LAL

36 | 4 hours ago

Well yeah. Thunder set the paradigm now everyone is copying. That’s how it works

No use in complaining. Gotta adjust

Asleep_Ground1710 | CHI

17 | 4 hours ago

Honestly the refs already favor offense a lot with travels/carrying/illegal screens not being called and the various types of foul baiting they allow. So like defenses need some leeway tbh

lawschoolthrowaway36 | LAL

20 | 4 hours ago

Idk why they can’t just call travels, illegal screens, and offensive fouls when players jump into defenders, but also call defensive fouls when they just hold the player’s off arm while they’re dribbling

Asleep_Ground1710 | CHI

6 | 4 hours ago

Ideally they would do that but alas this is the nba

Coolguynumber01 | GSW

2 | 4 hours ago

why does the nba have to bend rules for defenders to compensate them bending the rules for offense. Why cant they just call the rules as is

CartoonsAndAppleJack | LAL

-1 | 4 hours ago

I’m not complaining. I like physical defense

bhris_cratt321 | NYK

1 | 3 hours ago

It started with the 24 Wolves. Thunder and Spurs took it to a whole new level

Western-Election-997 | LAL

3 | 3 hours ago

Luka had to face 3 teams playing that style to reach finals, Clippers, Thunder and Wolves. No wonder he was limping by the time he faced Celtics

bhris_cratt321 | NYK

0 | 3 hours ago

Eh idk abt the Clippers. They were pretty soft defensively. And the Thunder in 24 weren’t the fully-formed prison ball demons yet (still physical but not quite 2025 and 26).

IMO these teams have nearly perfected prison-ball.

Timberwolves, Thunder, Spurs, Pistons, Magic, Raptors. And on certain nights, Rockets, Heat, Knicks.

I’m down with it, as long as it makes it tougher for these guys to score.

KingJTt

1 | 2 hours ago

The new look Sixers are making full court defense their identity as well.

BombshellExpose | LAL

19 | 4 hours ago

Defensive reputations lead to an insane amount of latitude with how much you can foul someone as a defender too.

When we still had Max Christie, who is a good perimeter defender, he would get fouls called on him for any contact with the ball handler. Compare that to when we had Caruso, and it was night and day. Caruso was allowed to breathe down his assignment’s jersey purely based on his reputation (which he did earn by being an elite defender).

MasterP_istons | DET

15 | 3 hours ago

It’s been wild to watch this progression for Ausar Thompson.

He was foul prone his first two seasons. I’m sure he’s defending with more discipline now, but he’s also allowed wayyy more latitude to bump and reach that were auto fouls just a couple seasons ago.

It’s also funny because Ron Holland will get subbed in, do the exact same physical ball pressure and immediately gets whistled. And he’s always so mad. I can only imagine he knows that hes doing literally the same things as Ausar since they probably go at it in practice, and he is always getting whistled.

Objective_Cod1410 | MIL

2 | 3 hours ago

I remember Andre Jackson Jr would get called for a foul if he blinked and his eyelashes disturbed the air within 4 feet of the ballhandler.

SkyCrossSteel

-2 | 4 hours ago

Did he have that level of respect even in his Lakers years? He was on the team for a couple years maybe but stated his career as an end of bench guy.

AllOutRaptors | TOR

20 | 4 hours ago

I hate how much of the game is based around flopping, whining and asking for more calls. We had 57 free throws this game. We dont need more

Quiet_Childhood4066 | DAL

26 | 4 hours ago

It sounds like a large part of the problem is that teams actually encourage their players to foul constantly on every possession with the assumption that the refs can’t call them all.

ryrythe3rd

3 | 4 hours ago

I don’t want more FT, I just want defenses and offenses to stop fouling on the perimeter, in the paint, off ball, on ball, fighting for rebounds, 5 times every possession. It’s ugly basketball and causes injuries. So if more FTs are needed, so be it

bhris_cratt321 | NYK

5 | 3 hours ago

IMO the refs know defenders are fouling like crazy. It’s to counteract the level of off-arm pushes offensive players are allowed to do.

Rather than call the off-arm, refs just let the game become an all-out free-for-all. I will say this has made playoff basketball incredibly dramatic and physical, and truly what high level competition looks like.

That being said, it makes for a very dangerous game in the regular season for 82 games. We’re already seeing the effects of “letting them play” with all the injuries.

lawschoolthrowaway36 | LAL

18 | 4 hours ago

Yeah this style of play is also IMO why there are more injuries. Defenses pick up full court and it’s an insane amount of running for both offense and defense. The on ball defense is night and day compared to prior eras despite everyone claiming it was more physical back in the day. Go watch a game from the 80s or 90s and nobody is pressuring the ball even close to the halfcourt line.

Nex_Kelsier

22 | 4 hours ago

No need to go that far. Was watching game from 2007 yesterday. My god, players just don’t move on offense. Was easy job for defenders.

LatinX_BIPOC_Ally

3 | 3 hours ago

yeah because you actually had to set the screen before the ball handler was allowed to move lol

and then you got the lax enforcement of carrying and traveling that allows the game to move much quicker

RyanA1105

5 | 4 hours ago

This. If these dudes were wearing fitbits in the 2000s and today, I’d be willing to bet that the average player takes somewhere between 2 and 3x the amount of steps in an average game now compared to then. The wear and tear is literally double to triple in terms of the soft tissue stuff.

Gagabubu777

1 | 4 hours ago

They weren’t moving as lateral as they are now. Remember all this dribbling wasnt allowed so both offensive and defensive players didnt have to shift as much. No zone also meant no running side to side to cover the open man.

RyanA1105

2 | 4 hours ago

100% agreed. The amount of stress on the ligaments and soft tissue muscles is night and day different.

FatJuggernaut-916

3 | 4 hours ago

94 feet is not a new concept

lawschoolthrowaway36 | LAL

8 | 4 hours ago

You can go watch old games. It’s not the same ball pressure and defensive activity on all parts of the court.

FeeNegative9488

3 | 3 hours ago

Sonics, Bulls and Knicks defended full court. Heck the 93-94 Knicks full court defense is what triggered the first rollback in handchecking rules

RyanA1105

2 | 4 hours ago

I’m a big proponent of watching classic eras, because I’m a basketball junkie. I used to trade DVDs of 90s games on some of those NBA classic game trading sites back in the early 2010s. I used to target trading for 80s games.

I will say that there was an increase in full court pickup in the early 90s when the league started to slow down. League pace was 100.6 in 1989 but dropped to 95.1 by the 1994 season. The league actually instituted a point of emphasis for the 1995 season where hand checking was disallowed in the backcourt and in some cases up to the free throw line. I could definitely notice this change back when I used to do a bunch of those classic watches.

With all that said, I rarely noticed full court pickup in the NBA in the several dozen of 80s games I’ve watched, with most being playoff games. Then when the “rule change” happened in ‘95, I really don’t think we saw any major full court pressure for literal decades until we started seeing it in the 2020s. I’m even old enough to remember Rick Pitino taking over the Celtics and pressing for entire quarters at a time and being clowned on, because this “wasn’t college and you can’t press in the modern NBA.”

Gagabubu777

1 | 4 hours ago

He’s absolutely correct tho. Even there full court press they aren’t body to body. Illegal defense also meant it was 1 defender per offense unless hard double. Which means less lateral movement. The main killer is the side to side movements athletes dont usually practice those muscles

FatJuggernaut-916

12 | 4 hours ago

Mfers clear out with that arm so fuck em

londonisblue22 | TOR

-22 | 4 hours ago

Exactly, fuck lakers fans in the thread tryna say everyone’s just copying okc

deleted-user | TOR

6 | 4 hours ago

What he’s “forgot” to mention is that offensive players are shoving that same off arm into the defender’s chest to create space.

LifeBanana3347 | Japan

4 | 4 hours ago

I really have talked to some folks in real life that think they can score on an NBA player. They have no clue

ActualyHandsomeJack | LAL

3 | 4 hours ago

If I keep chucking ones bound to get lucky and fall in

wxnfx

1 | 3 hours ago

I’ve done it. They key is that they won’t try that hard against dudes like me.

NEUTRONonmyPINKY

1 | 3 hours ago

Anything to help defenders I’m all for

Good-Development5988

1 | an hour ago

I remember teaching that move to my friends 15 years ago haha, the refs have a really hard time noticing it

Unable_Apartment_613

1 | an hour ago

Argentinian soccer team style: call the game in my favor or make it unwatchable. It’s a bad faith approach to competition.

KingAndQueenClinton | DEN

1 | 34 minutes ago

Cason Wallace should foul out after 5 minutes every game. Same with Alex Caruso

WoodpeckerWorldly822

1 | 8 minutes ago

the caitlin clark defensive strategy has made it to the NBA

ScionAurelius | OKC

1 | 4 hours ago

But it’s okay when Laravia and Marcus Smart were doing it clearly.

tkc321 | TOR

1 | 2 hours ago

Lets just give JJ and Luka what they want, a full 48 minute game of nothing but free throws for Luka

[deleted]

0 | 4 hours ago

purplebuffalo55 | SAC

2 | 4 hours ago

I know a Thunder fan isn’t complaining about another team’s whistle or another team’s star player getting a shit ton of free throws

JJ Redick: “I told the refs this; all the on ball defenders do this now…they pick you up and they grab the arm you’re not dribbling with and they try to steal the ball from you. We saw this famously with Cason Wallace and TJ McConnell”