I remember when the warriors weren’t going to win because they shoot 3s.

I think the better talking point is something like “Is it easier to game plan against a guy that makes the majority of his team’s offensive decisions as opposed to a more egalitarian type of team?” and I do think the answer is a solid yes

But for a one-man team, for lack of a better phrase, to even get to a finals game, or take the eventual champs to 7 games, is a very underrated accomplishment in itself

Yep

I’m supposed to believe if these guys were on truly stacked championship-level teams somehow they couldn’t fit in and win considering we’ve seen Luka and Harden both adjust their games to their teams? Sometimes you just don’t win and thats ok because tons of factors go into it, people would have said Dirk’s archetype couldn’t win as the #1 in his era until he won in 2011, same with Brunson, etc

Harden was also being told to go solo teams like the Spurs and Warriors with patrick beverly as his next best ballhandler. They had 40 year old Pablo prigoni suiting up in the WCF against the warriors in 2015.

Its crazy how fast people wanna forget its a team sport. If Harden had Klay, Dray, and KD beside him he’s winning easy ass rings too lol

Those two teams had Chris Paul and Kyrie Irving respectively as elite secondary table setters and ball handlers. Their playoff run will be on how much Austin Reaves steps up as the number 2 guy.

They said the same thing about Jalen Brunson being a small guard. Just a bunch of opinions that makes up debates

Yeah seriously. Harden went against one of the best teams ever for half a decade, and many years was the only serious contender besides the warriors. Any other timeline he has at least a chip.

A lot of people have zero vision for something that they haven’t personally seen happen before. Dirk was considered a guy who couldn’t get it done in the clutch, and then he had an amazingly clutch run in 2011 and got a ring. Their ability to win a championship is questioned until they win one. Same type of thing leads to teams that were just in the championship series being overwhelmingly predicted to be a championship team the following year, because people just saw them do it so their recency bias is going off.

I’m not a Harden fan by any means but that game 7 was one of the most horrific ref performances I’ve seen. With a neutral whistle Houston would have won that game.

Harden was in a finals as well, but it was KDs team at the time

This conversation completely changes if the ‘18 rockets don’t have the most untimely game 7 shooting slump in NBA history

But they didnt win

If you see Channing Frye, Richard Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins or iman Shumpert speaking down on some superstars name on a podcast that has clearly not seen a headline in a year and a half, you can feel free to ignore it.

Better yet, maybe think a bit on what the connecting thread and group motivation here could be. HINT - it’s what Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett get accused of doing every time they speak.

I don’t get how it’s revisionist history when they didn’t win. He didn’t say their style of basketball isn’t going to get you to the Finals, so your point doesn’t really equate to anything

also if he means heliocentric offence teams it has won? kyrie and lebron literally beat the warriors in a your turn my turn style. luka just needs a real second option and surround him with shooters + a big man. hell he did it with kyrie in dallas it’s just he was injured and kyrie shat the bed

They didn’t close enough to win. At no point were they ever in a position to actually win a finals

Luka got iso’d and cooked in that finals

But they didn’t win, and Harden was terrible in game 7, even without CP3 if he played like he did in the regular season, they win that game. But even if they do, no guarantee they win the Finals anyways.

Also Luka made the Finals yes, but the Finals weren’t competitive at all and Luka got exposed on defense, the only reason why that series wasn’t a sweep is because the Celtics wanted to win at home.

Yea this is just hot take stuff. Some great players just don’t win. Luka is hitting his prime so I’m not sure why these these talks are even happening. ESPECIALLY with his playoff resume

But they didn’t so your point automatically sits at the bottom of the ocean.

U mean nothing

Yeah they’ve shown they are good enough to make a conference finals. So what would happen if they (or the same archetype of player) both made the finals the same year. Do they both lose somehow? There isn’t always gonna be a world beater on the other side

There’s a huge gap between losing in 5 where ³⁄₄ of the losses were extremely uncompetitive and actually winning the finals

In a finals yet still arguing with refs instead of getting back on defense

I think people look at clips and just saw how luka was crossed by steph and think that he is not a good player. It’s different playing against a freak than watching clips online and thinking, “oh he doesnt look like Kobe or MJ, its not winning championships, No nasty”

yeah i’m so very far from a Harden stan but this is some faulty-ass reasoning. running up against the GS juggernaut should never be held against Harden (though it will always be)

agreed. run those years back a few more times and I guarantee they take the crown a meaningful amount of the time

He’s been a top 3 since like his 3rd year, he shouldve won the 24 mvp. I like Frye but this is a bad take after he’s been to the finals with a dual ball handler

in a Finals game

I believe you mean “In the championship games.”

There are some guys you just can’t build around.

Channing Frye played 33 minutes across 4 games. He scored 2 points and grabbed three rebounds. He did not play in games 5, 6, or 7.

Any player can win a chip with the right team and right luck. I think his point is speaking more to the idea that the style of basketball they play and their weaknesses on the court become more harmful to winning as you get deeper into the playoffs. Lack of defense especially can be harmful and we’ve seen this be a problem for Luka (although I’ve seen Lakers fans saying he’s improved at least somewhat in this regard this season) and getting to the finals depended on surrounding him with good defenders who could cover that weakness while maximizing his strengths and who wouldn’t mind his lack of contribution there. To my earlier point about anyone doing it, Jokic has a ring, but we’ve also seen his comparative lack of defense be a big contributing problem to a lot of earlier playoff exits for the Nuggets. It definitely has made their path there harder.

In general, having a player who takes up a max contract slot who isn’t actively contributing at least something in multiple parts of the game, e.g., a fantastic scorer who doesn’t play defense or do a lot off-ball offensively, is going to make building a roster that can be successful at the highest levels and not be exploited harder to do.

People pretend like the issue with Harden is his play style and not the fact that he is one of the worst close out game performers in NBA history.

Who played like that and showed they can win a championship?”

Michael Jordan.

Also a high scoring guard. Also faced these allegations of ‘can’t win a championship this way’. Until he finally did.

MJ’s usage rate in year 2, 3 exceeded anything Luka has before this year. His championship years had trended a bit lower. Better team and triangle offense

They said Kobe couldn’t win a title without Shaq for years.

So like Charles Barkley or Karl Malone type of careers. All-time greats MVP-caliber players who reached the Finals and just can’t get it done. There is a high chance Luka’s career ends up this way - so the analysis by Channing (and most people TBH) is a reasonable take.

Close doesn’t cut it

it does smell of jump shots cant win championships

I mean he’s not technically wrong, neither won

So getting to the Finals equates to winning it now? I see.

But they didn’t. Harden went his whole career without a chip despite some of the highest scoring regular seasons of all time. You’d think a guy with that kind of scoring ability would be able to find a team to win a chip with. Almost like there’s some other factor at play 🤔

Also because it’s INCREDIBLY HARD to win a championship, the easiest analysis someone could bring is “I don’t think [player who hasn’t won a championship yet] will win a championship.”

Has Luka ever been on the best team in the league? I don’t think he has. Has he ever once been a championship favorite? His full team has never been that close in expectation. So why would you expect him to win a championship without a major upgrade in help?

We’re giving participation trophies now for ALMOST winning 😭. Jesus Christ

That’s still not a championship though, it’s not revisionist. SGA and peak MJ were close in terms of usage, but few players are ever that good.

I’m not sure you could name a bigger playoff choker than James Harden.And CP, Luka and Harden have had stacked rosters before. So tired of this argument.

Harden.Nets: Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Joe Harris, Blake Griffin.Rockets: Chris Paul, Clint Capela, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, P.J. Tucker. 65 wins.Thunder: Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka.

CP3.Clippers: Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, J.J. Redick, Jamal Crawford. 57 wins.Rockets: MVP Harden, Capela, Gordon, Ariza, Tucker.Suns: Devin Booker, Mikal Bridges, Deandre Ayton, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder. 64 wins.

Luka.Mavs: Kyrie Irving, P.J. Washington, Derrick Jones Jr., Daniel Gafford, Dereck Lively II.Lakers: LeBron James and Austin Reaves.

All 3 have had tremendous rosters at one point or multiple. Which then furthers Fryes point of needing a perfect roster around you to win.

If he could win. Why hasn’t he? If he did it one year, why has he not done it again? That was a decade ago.

How come he hasn’t gotten close to winning?

If harden could have won. So could every other player that got close. Booker. Cp3. Wemby. What are we even talking about?

The only two examples that people bring up are Harden and Luka who played within a decade of each other, one who’s only like halfway through his career up to this point, and both ran into historically dominant teams. Seems like such a small sample size for people to be so sure of. Remember like five seconds ago when people were saying Brunson would never win a chip because a small guard as the number one option hadn’t done it since XYZ. Remember when Dirk was a playoff choker until he wasn’t. Shai also just won with a pretty high usage rate although Luka is more drastic

Well his argument is they can’t win it so your first point is irrelevant.

Yes and no.

You can get far but chances are you’ll eventually run into a great team where it won’t be enough.

i mean Harden also had another superstar in his late prime on his team, along with the absolutely perfect supporting cast around them

Just like he said, amazing indeed. Very close, but did not equate to championship, just as he said. Up to Luka to prove him wrong.

And Luka had zero chance of winning that series

But neither of them won, which was his point. Do you guys ignore the facts when it’s a player you like?

Lots of players have been “in a finals game” they were woefully incapable of ultimately winning. That Mavs team would’ve been among the absolute worst champs of all time if they’d won. I do think the idea Luka won’t ever win because of how he plays is unfounded.

Harden’s Rockets absolutely could’ve won a title but it’s also undeniably true that one of the reasons they never did is Harden often was not great in the playoffs.

“Could”, but didn’t. That’s the point. It hasn’t happened.

He took the champs to 7 with one of the best and deepest teams in NBA history him and still lost yes.

That’s sort of the point isn’t it

You didn’t answer his question tho

They lost and their poor efficiency and defense were a major reason why in both cases. Almost winning doesn’t mean shit.

NBA fans forget how much most Championship runs come down to dumb luck. Giannis probably doesn’t get a ring if Kyrie doesn’t get injured. Jokic would probably have a harder time if the Celtics made the finals instead of the Heat. Harden probably gets one if CP doesn’t get injured. And that’s just a few examples off the top of my head.

And that’s without getting into trades, drafts, and other stuff players have no control over. Luka has proven he can win with a solid roster around him.

Unless he wins a championship he can’t lead a team to a championship

because they had the right personnel and matchups. the Knicks’ success was due to every player having an offensive and defensive contribution and Brunson’s true role (he brilliantly fulfilled) was being consistent in the clutch, the Thunder and Pacers had the league’s deepest bench, but Pacers from a 50-win team is a 19-win team without their best player, the Celtics was still chucking threes, but their defense was far superior (holding mavs under 100 points in four games), exploiting fat Luka and shutting down (Id argue out of prime) Kyrie, the Nuggets had an excellent bench with Reggie Jackson, clutch shot maker KCP, and Bruce Brown who could keep up with any opposing starting cast in 2023, and Giannis was dominating Suns frontcourt who did not have the size and length to deal with him inside alongside his team having enough offensive firepower that could have 3 guys score 20+ in one game and a 2nd option who can drop 40.

for Luka to win, his supportive cast need to consist of defensive monsters, and AR15 to play like a superstar and get everyone in rhythm (because Luka’s playstyle doesnt). that is not the case right now. I also dont believe Rockets was winning against a defensively superior Cavaliers team even if they beat GSW, the matchup favor the Cavaliers, fans are just shallow who only know hype.

Chris Paul getting hurt against the Warriors was the really bad one. They had us on the ropes and probably would have won if he played the whole series.

Multiple people in this thread doing the same thing lol. Like, are you actually trying to argue that there is a specific type of playstyle, that is capable of getting a team to the WCF and getting you a 3-2 lead vs arguably the best team in the history of basketball, but it caps there? Like that’s just the limit of that playstyle? The playstyle is what prevents you from closing the serious out?

I mean “you cant shoot your way into an nba championship, suns 2006. “You cant shoot your way into an nba championship” Orlando 2009. “You cant shoot your your way into an nba championship “ golden state 2014

“Charles Barkley does not play winning basketball”–channing Frye if he was out of the league in 1995

I think we’re missing the forest for the trees here.

Harden has had 14 seasons in the league since he left OKC and the best we’re able to bring up his “half of an almost” one time? Goes a way to proves Channing’s point.

The irony is it’s the same people that would say Jordan is head and shoulders above LBJ

Not debating the point of Harden overall. But somethint  worth considering for that Harden Rockets team up 3-2 on the Warriors: I don’t think everyone is convinced that the Rockets would have beat the Cavs in the finals.

The slow, methodical halfcourt isolation offense Houston used to grind down the Warriors and limit possessions might not have worked against a LeBron James and Kyrie led team. When you slow the game down, limit total possessions, and turn it into a halfcourt execution battle, history shows you’re usually not going to beat LeBron James playing that style over a 7 game series. Kyrie is also an absolute bucket getter in the half court.

The Warriors, on the other hand, blew past Cleveland because of their high pace and elite movement/shooting.

Styles make fights. Houston very well could have won, but it was far from a guarantee.

But did he win tho?

Yeah and are we going to pretend like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron were not high usage players who won championships? Sure, MJ and Kobe played in the triangle, but they had the command of the offense and took over whenever they needed to in order to close out a game, and Lebron’s dominated the hell out of the ball for most of his career. Luka’s had multiple deep runs with rosters that weren’t exactly that great, never had a good enough team to even be a top seed.

But that year was the least the Rockets were dependent on him to win compared to 2019 and 15 and I think that’s why they were up. I don’t think the “heliocentric” system can’t win but if you have 70-80% of shot creation resting on one guy, in this exhausting af era of basketball, and don’t have a back-up plan yeah you are screwed.

And you see it if you look at their history: Harden gets more and more gassed rounds after rounds until he is shooting tour dates and Luka body straight up breakdown and never finish the playoffs healthy. It might be a winning style but it’s not a sustainable one.

It’s a valid take because Harden fell through in game 7 and the Celtics won because they successfully targeted Luka and shut him down (at least playmakingwise)

Both instances show that maybe over relying on one player falls through when the player is shut down or having a bad game.

It doesn’t have to be a knock on the players to be a valid criticism of that type of playstyle

James Harden played against the Jordan Bulls?

How much of a loser must you be to play 17 seasons in the NBA as a star player and your shining moment as a winner is being up in a series against an elite team. You people are genuinely insane.

And if you think the biggest modern day choke artist is leading his team in the Finals to victory, you might be one too.

all NBA discourse is like this it’s one of the worst of all the sports

Welcome to reddit mate

Maybe Luka shouldn’t be so insufferable? He’s an amazing talent but completely insufferable.

Lol, welcome to what SGA fans dealt with in the media and on this sub for the past 3 years.

And he still went out and won 2 MVPs and a ring.

Sounds like he’s saying the usage rate going to those players, not the usage rate in general.

I don’t agree with Frye but usage rate is shots plus turnovers. It has nothing to do with ball dominance, it’s the % of your teams possessions that you end.

Yeah but SGA is a different tier of player compared to Luka, though.

While being a better playmaker hence why he gets to have the ball so much

You managed to cherry pick the one year where Luka had his lowest usage rage in his career which was skewed by the Lakers trade and you still managed to get the stat wrong lol. He averaged 33.1% usage with the Mavs and 34.5% usage with the Lakers in the regular season and then 32.4% usage in the playoffs. He has the highest average usage rate in NBA history by a wide margin for his career, has lead the league in usage 4 times and is averaging the highest of his career this year at nearly 40% so far

There exists a fanbase that, over the last 20 years, has cried about their second option being Kobe Bryant. and then Pau gasol and then Dwight Howard and then Anthony Davis and then LeBron James himself.

I don’t think ANY second option that exists in any universe would be enough for that fanbase

He’s a good 3rd option, not a good 2nd

Been saying this for forever. Reeves ain’t a #2, not even on a final appearance team. We had to sign him rather than lose him for nothing.

Luka disagrees. He strongly advocated for Reaves to be resigned by the Lakers

See, Channing didn’t get his chip by being a bench rider on the Lebron-Kyrie Cavs. He got it by having that elite mindset that the bench riders on non-championship teams lack. Luka could learn a thing or two from Channing Frye.

(Is it a coincidence that most of these takes come from people affiliated with the Lebroniverse?)

you the champ or the bum

Almost like supporting cast matters as much as anything

It was only 38% against the Spurs, plus the main boost for the Knicks in the playoffs was point KAT. Brunson knows how to play off ball. I don’t think we’ve seen Luka do it much, even with Reeves/LeBron.

Brunson plays offball way more than those two, especially Luka.

Exactly. Luka can win with the right cast and a hot streak from his supporting players. The cast around him rn is not it though. He really does need an OG type forward next to him. I think Luka with Bam and OG would probably win a chip

Absolutely not. Jalen is way more willing to sacrifice and play off ball when it matters. Also leadership and not whining for an entire game matter. Body language matters.

Until he got surrounded by talent and didn’t need to play that way anymore. So he won when he stopped playing like them lmao

Brunson is a way better off ball player than Luka.

Idk about that Kat seems to be the centripetal force of that system. Jalen plays a lot of off ball. He gets more touches and has higher usage but that’s a lot different than being heliocentric.

No he doesn’t.

If only everything went right one year he might have won 1 championship

Could have but didn’t.

Celtics lived and died by the three HARD the years before and after, which is the point Barkley made.

The fact that they could’ve gotten one championship doesn’t really validate the system to me. It’d be different if they were consistently in championship contention and getting to the Finals more frequently. By comparison, the most dominant dynasties in recent years all had layers of ball movement and specifically off ball movement that stars bought into that helped those teams stay consistent. The Spurs, Heat and Warriors all had stars that bought into being more sacrificial and finding ways to be effective off the ball. Lack of off ball movement for example is why the Celtics offense dries up if people aren’t hitting threes because the system otherwise does not have an effective level of offensive creativity.

Harden and Luka are not good off ball players at all by comparison. If they don’t have the ball they’re usually just catching their breath and waiting to get it again.

I dont get why redditors keep parroting the same thing without really thinking about it. Even if Harden managed to not choke in the wcf, they would have found a way to lose to Bron in the finals. Harden has choked his way out of every post season, people just assume he shoulda woulda coulda won a chip against prime Bron. I doubt it given his track record.

Easiest way to shut up a Harden defender is to wait until the playoffs. Every year. For 18 years. No exceptions. Always chokes.

In roughly 25% (46games) of his playoff career, he has had as many or more turnovers than made field goals.

Nearly a quarter of his career playoff games feature him shooting under 25% or finishing with fewer than 3-4 made field goals

Y’all truly believe James Harden who statistically has proven to choke about 2 games in a 7 games series could take a series off Prime Lebron? They would have found a way to lose.

Frye hasn’t said anything wrong, neither have won.

Lots of luck has played into multiple championships, that doesn’t make what Frye is say incorrect.

If Harden actually played like Doncic in the playoffs, he has a ring.

Anyone could win when one or two things change lmao. They didnt though. His points are 100% valid.

Spurs shot lights out against the Miami heat in the finals. There was nothing we could do even with LeBron and Dwade

He made the finals but I kinda feel like that was a weird playoffs in the west.

It’s not just ex-players. Its just an easy argument to make by anyone. You can always say “this player can’t win this way” until they do it. And these lazy narratives pretty much always get attached to an amazing player that has a unique skill set and hasn’t won yet.

Examples include:Michael Jordan: can’t win with a huge usage. Doesn’t make teammates betterBrunson: can’t win with your best player being that smallLeBron: not a killer, passes too muchDirk: too soft and European

Now these were all talking points that pundits made great money off of and the second they’re dispelled, they either move the goal post on the player or find another player to put a stipulation on.

IMO, all great players can win a ring if the circumstances are right. If Chauncey billups can lead a team to a ring, I’m damn sure that Luka could

Yes, a random on reddit knows better than a former NBA player, incredible insight

We don’t know if Luka already hit the height of his powers and we’re already seeing the downward slope. He did start playing professionally at 13

Luka had a cakewalk path to the finals and got obliterated once he saw a complete team. He wouldn’t have made it to the finals if they had faced any of the top teams in the west that were eliminated. Harden would’ve gotten obliterated in the finals too had he done something in the semis.

Players with obscene usage offensively have to conserve defensively to justify that usage. No player has infinite energy. When you take a below average defender and ask them to conserve their energy on defense, they become a liability. It doesn’t matter if you can score 30 ppg if you are surrendering open 3s, drives into the lane, and forcing help and often fouls on your teammates. There are unseen consequences to being a traffic cone that extend far beyond your 1v1 matchup.

Well, answer the question then: When has a team with a best player like this ever won the championship?

It’s a talking point because in the 80 year history of the league it hasn’t happened yet. That’s not up for debate.

Could Luka change it? Maybe! I happen to like Luka, so I hope that he does. But it doesn’t change the fact that it’s never happened before.

The rules have changed to favor jump shooting teams. If we’re gonna debate with “if’s”, then that must be pointed out. That never happens without the rules shifting  to punishing defenders and blatantly favor offensive players.

And almost any finals could have a different outcome “if one or two things changed”. It’s such a stupid thing to say.

Luka is a great player, but he has become annoying af. He’s always high energy in the first half, then folds in effort in the second.

You understand it. The other guys don’t get a chance to get in a rhythm. They have to stand in their spots and wait til Luka passes to them to shoot. That’s it. Luka takes 10+ shots in the first quarter alone and gets his. Then the second quarter rolls around and the rest of the team is basically playing like it’s tipoff while the other team is in rhythm.

The Lakers were up by like 23 in the first quarter, he goes out, and GSW scores like 13 in a row.  They don’t know what to do when he’s not in, ha.

That’s why i don’t think the Lakers can currently get through the Spurs or Thunder without injuries

For the second point, yeah he can win without being a great defender. For the first point, we will see. I think it’s way harder to win playing that style but he did make the Finals. I could see with a better team he could win. I actually thought if the Mavs kept Luka and everyone was healthy that they had a chance

Jokic Dirk and Curry don’t need the ball in their hands for ²⁰⁄₂₄ seconds on the shot clock reliant on solely them to create the entire play with one on one or one last second kick out as their go to play. It’s not about hiding bad defense.

Luka’s game is far, far more similar to Harden’s than any of those guys you mentioned. Pinnacle of heliocentric and reliant on foul calls. The foul calls in particular dry up and don’t work in the playoffs. The heliocentric guard style also struggles to beat other contenders when they have up to 7 games to adjust. Harden came closest with something resembling this style when he had another guard that handled the ball quite a bit

Give Luka a run as easy as Jokic’s and he wins a chip. Give Luka a run as hard as Dirk’s and he wins none.

I always hate people saying our ring was “an easy path”.

It had one the highest volume of all NBA and all defense players against us during any ring run. And it included LBJ, who is always the main argument against MJ as the best modern player ever.

The team seeds weren’t that impressive, but it was also arguably near the start of the “era of parity”, where the difference between a 1 seed and 8 seed is the smallest it’s ever been

Disrespectful comparing Curry to Luka.

It’s much easier to surround curry and dirk with good defenders because they don’t need the ball on offense, whereas luka needs shooters because he dribbles the air out of the ball.

If you think about it, most good shooters are not good defenders, and the ones that are are extremely expensive. But lots of players who’re good defenders and mediocre/bad shooters can still provide value on offense if you put them with a star who doesn’t always need the ball

no. he almost won a conference finals. this stuff is getting ridiculous.

Wouldn’t really say almost when there was another round to go .

Cus those guys only ever get close. Luka made the finals already

Cause retired bus riders have to make a living as well

That’s kind of the issue, though. His body never really has been right and he doesn’t take care of himself well enough to keep it right when he it finally is. Luka is amazing for the league and makes some serious highlights, but I just don’t see his game translating to a championship when he’s on hobbled bloody knees

You left the part out where th celtics made taking advantage of him on defense the focal point of their offense.

Jaylen Brown and Jrue Holiday turned him into a turnover machine, and his crying for fouls every other trip led to constant fast break points.

Thats why he got traded. Perfect comparison btw.

(Edit- the crying for fouls bit was so bad it became the narrative on every sports talkshow in America for weeks.)