Check Swing Angles
I like Yandy’s face more
(Yandy Díaz cums)
When you bust a count and team keeps sucking
Nice.
😂
Lmfaooo
His eye black pattern makes me think of an old Onion headline, “Woman’s Tan Lines Make No Sense”
He looks like the 12 year olds playing travel ball.
Maybe someone should tell him the extra eye black isn’t helping.
Oh Oh Oh Ozempic
The first thing I thought when I saw this face idk why
Why do people here keep posting angles and talking about some 45 degree shit as if its a rule, when that means nothing. The rule is if the ump says he swung then he swung, that’s literally the rule. An awful rule, but per rule these angles don’t objectively show anything.
As someone who has primarily been an NFL fan his whole life, it was crazy to me when I found out that there was no relatively established rule for when a checked swing counts or not. I would’ve figured it would at least have a general guideline like beyond 90° to the plate or past the front of the batter or something
It’s kind of like pass interference, it’s whatever the ump (or ref in football) thinks it is
I played pretty high competitively and makes sense now that the rule isn’t established because it waivered between “did he break his wrists” or “did the bat cross home plate.” Either way though from what I’ve seen over many years, that’s a swing
The thing with PI is that it’s not something that can be objective, whereas a swing is. Football is a contact sport which means there’s some amount of contact allowed on every play on the ball, so the rule has to be “did it amount to interfering with their ability to play the ball” and “was it catchable”, and there’s no way to know that for sure, so it has to ultimately be judgement, even if the fall is terrible sometimes
A swing is very easy to put an objective limit on. You just say it’s a swing when the bat passes some certain plane and you’re good. The only reason it hasn’t been changed is because that’s how it’s always been done.
People use different definitions. Hands, wrists, bat angle, bat position. I think parallel to the front of the plate makes sense, but there’s no clear rule in the majors. I could see the end of his bat from the center field angle for a couple frames, so I think it was a swing. He just brought the bat back super quick
I always figured if the tip of the bat goes past the front/lead shoulder callnit a swing. That’s just me, though
what exactly is a catch though
The umps and players have all pretty much agreed they cut it at 45 degrees and if it is passed that he went and if not he didn’t go, so any time an umpire deviates from that it seems “wrong”
45 degrees is definitely not the agreed upon threshold that’s currently called in MLB. 45 is what they’re testing in the minors and is way more lenient to the hitter than the status quo. 18 degrees is around the 50⁄50 point of getting called currently
some use the degrees rule of thumb, which i prefer. some use the “broke the front of the plate” rule of thumb, which i think is one of the worst interpretations possible once you take a second to think about it. It’s maybe the most annoying part of the game imo
I have been watching the Brewers all my life and I always assumed the rule was if the bat passed the entire plate. Glad I finally learned the official rule is that there is no rule
This is what every kid all the way down to little league is taught. And base umps do have a pretty decent view of that angle. But it happens so fast in real time it just isn’t always clear. At the end of the day it’s ump’s discretion and opinion.
They are just referencing what could be in place next season as the minor leagues has been testing a challenge system where a swing has to be at least 45 degrees past the plate (I think). Obviously, that means nothing here but it’s just something to think about that’s possibly coming.
The 45 degree thing doesn’t make a lot of sense to me though. What if a lefty tries to bunt it down the 3rd baseline? The bat angle isn’t even gonna be parallel to the front of the plate in that case. Is that just not a swing unless he makes contact with the ball? This looked like he made an offer at the ball to me, even from the 1st baseline camera. I think the ump got it right🤷♂️
Yeah, I don’t particularly like it either. The general rule of thumb is if that if the bat is parallel with the plate, it’s a swing… Giving batters that much leeway on a check swing is a major advantage in my opinion.
The entire point of it being that far is to give batters an advantage because pitching has become so dominant.
It makes no sense because Tampa has a few hits off of swings that were shorter than this, and there is not clear rule.
The check swing challenge metric they’re testing is insanely beneficial to hitters. I think the number I heard in a study was that 18 degrees was the 50⁄50 breakpoint on what umpires currently call. The NCAA rule of “passed the front hip” is way more reasonable imo
Yeah the general rule of thumb is that if the bat is parallel to the plate, it’s a swing. Making it 45 degrees past the plate is a huge advantage.
Yeah, like such an advantage that it’s probably best for hitters to plan on starting to swing at every pitch just in case because you have nothing to lose if it’s a ball-just stop before you go all the way around
I always thought that if the fat part of the bat went across the plate it counts as a swing.
While there’s no official rule in the MLB, the 45* plane is what they are using in the Pacific Minor League as they test the new system.
Announcers routinely make the same mistake
Because the “45 degree shit” is generally understood to be the line for when it’s a swing. We have all watched baseball enough times to know that, for the most part, when a batter passes 45 degrees it’s called a swing. So when there is a call that contradicts that, people will understandably say that it’s a bad call.
Saying there’s no “official rule” is kind of irrelevant and serves as nothing more than a thought terminating cliche. Before ABS there was effectively no official rule on what counts as a ball or strike when the batter didn’t swing; it was basically umpire discretion. Yet there were still ball or strike calls that people considered to be egregiously wrong.
There was a absolutely an official rule for what a ball or strike was prior to ABS. In fact, ABS doesn’t even use the official rule, but instead uses a specific plane to evaluate rather than the 3D volume above the plate because using the officially rule effectively expanded the strike zone compared to what umpires were consistently calling strikes. The official rule for a check swing is simply “did the batter attempt to strike at the ball” which is very subjective
There was a absolutely an official rule for what a ball or strike was prior to ABS.
I said there was effectively no rule, which is true. Umpires had vastly different strike zones and faced zero consequences for not going by whatever “official” definition of a ball or strike there was. It was all made up in their head.
But there was an objective definition of what a strike should be. There was (and currently still is) no such thing for a check swing. There’s a big difference between umpires not consistently evaluating an objective criteria compared to there not being an objective critera at all
It is relevant though, because as it is not defined, the umpire is correct here and there’s no need to argue it
So then anyone who was arguing about a bad ball or strike call pre-ABS was wasting their time too, by that same logic.
no. bad. go to sleep
This.
problem is there is no rule for check swing in baseball. its like a catch in football
Did he make a baseball move?
Yes but he didn’t tuck the bat in
No chance now the bat is going to have a good night’s sleep smh
That’s the thing about Arsenal!
I say this all the time. There is no definitive point used to measure what is/isn’t a swing. The rule doesn’t say breaking of the wrist, if the bat head passes the front plane of the plate, or if the angle of the bat breaks the base paths. Nothing.
It literally is “ask the umpire down the line if he thought it was a swing or not”. Thats. It.
And it’s dumb.
Therefore they made the right call by definition. A swing is when the umpire thinks it’s a swing. The umpire thought it was swing therefore it’s a swing.
It’s because that’s why.
Honestly that’s the beauty of baseball. It’s a kids game player by men and it is given to inaccuracies!!! We are human and flawed and it’s awesome to see us get called or missed on them.
An umpire is supposed to have a standardized rule and give the ruling impartially. There needs to be a measurement for what is considered a “swing” and umpires need to use that as the measurement and simply relay whether or not the play did or did not swing.
This whole “that’s how baseball is supposed to be” is incorrect. A strike isn’t a strike because the umpire “thought” it was a strike. The strike zone has a defining limits. Same as the field of play with foul lines.
So no, someone “thinking it’s a swing” isn’t beautiful.
Both feet on the ground and he has the bat in his hands. He clearly establishes himself as a swinger.
Speaking of a catch, what is the rule for Simpson’s drop in the 6th?It looked like he caught it but the glove hitting the ground “forced” the ball out.
he has to complete the catch when going to the ground
Have to make a “football move”
Dez Simpson didn’t catch it
He clearly didn’t make a baseball move though
One man’s baseball move is another man’s terrorist
Dez caught it son VS Yandy didn’t swing daughter
There’s no rule only to give the umps cover cause it’s a nearly impossible decision from all of their angles. At this point, everyone completely understands it’s if the bat went past perpendicular to the mound.
Should be a swing if the pitch passes the bat, while the bat is moving forward. Check swing if if the momentum of the bat is going reverse by the time the ball passes your bats swing path.
Doesnt matter, we wouldve loaded the bases and still not gotten a run
Yeah you’re not scoring off Ashby no matter what. I had to deal watching that fucking wizard get out of 3 straight innings of not allow a risp to score. Annoying as hell, but dam he just won’t let you score. Gotta hope Freddy Peralta can pitch better than Robert Gasser or this seris is over. The Brewers team is a team of destiny.
would’ve still been cool to see one of the rays better hitters in a pressure situation, i feel a little robbed as a (mostly) neutral fan
The overhead option isn’t straight overhead (it’s behind the plate) so it’s not perfect
The side angle isn’t straight to the side so it’s not perfect either
You speak facts, but strong opinions will continue for the next 2 days.
this could have been automated years ago but we needed to make the bases the size of a pizza box first
I’m just confused they didn’t have the standard straight from the side angle like always. They certainly didn’t show it live but they always show that in other instances like this
There’s no angle threshold for check swings, just whether the umpire though the batter attempted to strike at the ball
If I was an umpire everyone would be so mad at me. My interpretation of that rule as-written would be so hitter friendly
So you’re the 1950s ump who time travelled to today to run the check swing challenge system in the minors?
This is how I know everyone would hate me, because every thread about that challenge system calls it too hitter friendly and I just nod my head and smile like Jack Nicholson
Haha, all relative. Too hitter friendly compared to today’s game (though that may be the point if they’re trying to put more balls in play), but more pitcher friendly compared to the 50s.
Check swings are the balks of hitting of baseball.
~ Alex Rodriguez
The spirit of Yogi lives on
Balks, check swings, Michael Jordan, Aaron Judge. Wow.
That would be too smart for him
What’s a balk?
This statement was designed by a committee to be absolutely meaningless
Close enough. Could go either way but not controversial at all.
The first base ump that made the call looked very confident in his call. They actually select by performance for the playoffs (usually…), so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that it looked like he went from his vantage point.
My position as well
I’ve been around baseball for 32 years, literally my entire life. I’ve played, coached and umpired at fairly high levels of play. I have no idea what constitutes a check swing.
Check Swing Rules
You can’t just be up there and just doin’ a check swing like that.
1a. A check swing is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A check swing is when you check the..
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The batter is not allowed to do a swinging motion past the, uh, plane, that looks like they’re, you know, trying to hit the ball. You can’t do that.
1c-b. Once the batter is swinging, he can’t be over here and say to the ball, like, “I’m gonna get ya! I’m gonna hit you out! You better watch your butt!” and then just be like he didn’t even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you’re about to swing and then don’t swing, you have to still swing. You cannot not swing. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, swinging motion of the bat, and then, until you just swing it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the bat up here, like this, but then there’s the check swing you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Catherine Swing hasn’t been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn’t typecast as throwaway background characters
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in the RoboCop Series too! That could be even worse
1c-b(2)-b(ii). “Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto” – Styx, “Mr. Roboto” Haha, classic…
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A check swing is when the batter makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the bat and field of
I really appreciate that you took the effort to change the obscure actress with a relevant name, and the quote gag. Whenever I alter this copypasta for another purpose I always just cut the last part out. You are seen
This is basically it and exactly what came out of my mouth watching:
“He tried to check…”
TRIED. That’s what you need to know about this. There is no clear did it or not. You’re trying it.
Not a good idea right now. Commit or don’t.
Jomboy addressed this a little bit ago, and he pointed out that MLB has no measure for a check swing, just whatever the base ump thinks, and only if they are asked.
If he swings the bat too far duh
Can’t just be up there doing that. Unless you do, or don’t.. idk
Same, umpired 20 years. It’s just a feel call, pure judgement of intent to swing. Wrist break, barrel crosses the edge of the plate, all very difficult to determine and nothing is definitive.
I think video review should be implemented but it would have to be clear and obvious to overturn the base umps call.
Yea but even then, how would they decide, even in this case, I’ve watched it repeatedly and I’m not sure either way. Unless you say the bat can’t cross a certain point, in which case I still don’t know if he went around.
Bottom line is that umps shouldn’t have the power to decide games like that. I have no dog in this race, if I had to choose, I’d choose the Brewers, but ending a game this way is not right. Just like it wasn’t right at the end of the Dominican Game in the WBC. We have the technology, secure the fkn rule. I want it to be fair.
In this case you’d have to stick with the call on the field. The replay would protect against the more obvious ones that the ump just didn’t have the confidence to call.
There really isn’t a great answer, intent to swing is subjective.
Problem is without a set definition, replay would probably never overturn anything. How do you consider something that’s a judgment call clear and obvious?
I always thought it was if the wrists broke, but I guess that’s changed now.
There has never been a concrete check swing rule. It’s always been vibes based
I’ve only recently gotten into baseball the last couple seasons. For some reason I always thought it was if the pat crosses past your body/hips according to the line umpires. That was me just trying to work rules out without guidance though.
No idea? Fuggit. I’m gonna apply to be a blind ass umpire too
Same boat. I really don’t think it should be called an offering when the bat angle doesn’t drop. He gave a weird motion but not a swing. The bat looked to still be about 45degrees relative to the ground.
I said it earlier….but if there is baseball next year, one of the changes is going to be defining a swing, the review of check swings. And they will be separate from the ball/strike abs. I don’t think the ump was right. I also don’t think he was wrong. Being the final pitch in a World Series game, it just got put on the table for discussion.
Same, I actually feel like I can identify balks pretty well (the one thing almost every baseball fan seems to admit not knowing) but I’ve never really been able to identify check swings and just go along with whatever call the umpire makes.
What’s the definition of pornography?
You know it when you see it.
Full penetration.
Breaking a certain plane
Overhead angle is useless, the check swing rule is totally arbitrary (and the quantitative solution coming up right now is not very good). This game had enough opportunities that this coin flip shouldn’t be the big deal.
To me it looks like he clearly went…
From the overhead angle, definitely.
Not overhead, high angle but not top down. Easy to confuse the two
He pulls the bat up after stopping his forward movement of the bat. Its why the overhead looks obvious and why they don’t judge a check swing from that angle.
Its 50⁄50 call just sucks the game ends with this
At least it didn’t end their season, against their arch rivals(fuck the Dodgers).
“Looks like” implies uncertainty
Saying “looks like” and “clearly” is funny to me
“Looks like” implies it’s his perspective. Things can clearly look a certain way
That would be the “to me” part actually
Ok. How does the commenter not being completely certain matter?
It doesn’t, I just think the wording is funny.
If they aren’t completely certain, saying “clearly” is an interesting choice of words
Fair, but personally, I wish more people were honest about their level of certainty on Reddit. Too many people act like a virtual guess is a near certainty. I’ll take an honest “looks like” any day.
Regardless, have a good one.
The overhead still image is deceiving because the bat is pointed up after the bat is already pulled back. I do think it was a swing, but that is not the right image to use for this.
Maybe don’t blow a 4-0 lead, so one call doesn’t have so much weight now.
Even if he didn’t go (he did), this doesn’t change the fact that Tampa blew a 4-0 lead. You aren’t in this position if you hold the lead. This alone is not the reason they lost.
Series like this are always going to be super close. These inches and details matter. “Just win by 50 bro”
Not saying the call was right or wrong, just that this is a game of inches
Check swings are more or less subjective. Half the umps in the league would say this isn’t a swing. The other half would agree and say it’s a swing. Just how these calls work. It’s doesn’t negate that Tampa left several RISP including the runner on second who led off the inning with a double.
To add to this. The MLB rule book does not define a check swing. It defines an appeal on a potential half swing, but does not further define what is greater or less than a half swing
And forgot how to play defense
I’m getting a feeling of Deja Mustard right now
If half the umpires think it’s a swing, it’s a swing. I’m sorry but you don’t get to half swing 50% in the playoffs. You’ll get lucky 50% of the time but in the playoffs you can’t be relying on luck. It’s a swing
Id disagree if it’s 20% check swing
It seems like you think they were defending the Rays, but they weren’t. They are saying that a picture of the swing doesn’t make it a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ call. They even said that Tampa had their opportunites
The top view is useless because it can’t differentiate between the bat going forward or up. The other one isn’t the normal check swing camera they always use, which they conveniently never did show (which probably shows this as a pretty clear check, but whatever).
Regardless of all of this, these playoffs have made it pretty clear they need to clean up how checks are officiated, because this is like the 12th controversial one in a month.
Top view is 100% useless the umpire isn’t making the call off that angle, so show it means absolutely nothing.
I Was just having that conversation.
You guys need to worry about remembering how to field the ball.
Yeah man I’ll get right on that.
Overhead shot is disingenuous
Exactly, it’s at an angle and not looking straight down. How is this so hard for others to see?
idk dude but this discourse is already driving me crazy
It’s insane how many criminally stupid people are literally arguing the bat is pointing down the first base line based on this silly angle
I have never seen so many check swing issues in playoffs
The overhead is an awful perspective. It doesn’t “show” anything objectively. I don’t know how you can say “looks like” for one and “shows” for the other
S W I N G G A T E
All rage baiting aside it was a close call but I do feel like people are itching for this to be a controversy when it’s not. Yes, it could have gone either way but it was determined he went. Tampa bay didn’t do a damn thing after the first inning to make sure they didn’t get to the point where that call mattered. Brewers did. Good night.
Close call for the final out a WS game. People here are going to discuss it. I don’t see any rage baiting or whatever else
Idk what you’re pissing your pants about. I said it was close, but ultimately Tampa shat the bed. Just bc I’m speaking bluntly and obviously biased towards my team doesn’t mean I’m as soft as you,
The intensity of your comments just makes me feel like you’d enjoy yourself more in your team sub
You just look at the angles. 180 is flat. Questionable but a strike. The strike in question was like 270…
Camera angle is mind controlling all of y’all lol. The camera is above and behind at an angle. The bat is pointed somewhat upward. It appears to be pointing almost down the first base line but of course is not.
And that’s fair but swings are still up to the umps and not ABS. It was an either/or swing. I feel like I’m back to the Padres series again trying to explain it didn’t matter especially if the other team didn’t really put up a fight in the last innings
Side angle looked damn close to 180 tbh - “top” angle looked MUCH further than 180 but the camera angle itself is probably a factor
yep its hard to care about this at all. If he walked, the next rays batter hits a weak chopper to short and the game ends. Thats what theyll do in games 3 and 4 and maybe 5 if they get lucky
Great answer
Completely agree, they never padded that lead, it’s on them.
It is, but I not really following how that makes a difference in judging this call too, though. Because someone scores only in the first inning, they should have 50⁄50 calls against them in the 9th? I would have just stopped at “it was determined he went.” It sucks for the rays but it was at the very least a near 50⁄50 call. It happens. When teams scored makes no difference in deserving or not deserving the 50⁄50 call, though.
The brewers also had a run taken away in the previous inning with Chourio’s slide. So had that been called correctly, they very likely still would have won even if Yandy got on base on the “check” swing.
Too close to call imo so gotta go with what was called.
Yesterday’s Pratt double play also could have been determined too close to call, but they overturned the umpire. I felt the replays showed enough to indicate Chourio had his foot on the bag before the tag hit him. Karma tends to always come back though - BALL DON’T LIE!!
Still shots aren’t a great way to judge check swings.
I think the overhead shot is after he starts lifting the bat up. Changes the angle makes it looks worse. Could be wrong though
The overhead shot is really misleading because of the way Yandy whips the bat up and down. This is where the automatic check swing system would be helpful.
Ceci n’est pas une check swing
It was 4-2 lol. Score runs
4-0