PassMeTheBackwood [OP] | NYK

6 | 5 hours ago

This is most likely a direct response to Bruce Brown’s post-game comments from last night

buffalotrace | SEA

4 | 4 hours ago

If brown makes the roster, he is set to make 3.5 million. How bad are we supposed to feel that his salary isn’t keeping up with players who sell the tickets?

deemerritt | CHA

4 | 3 hours ago

The reality players like Bruce Brown dont understand is that the fact that they make 3.5 million a year to be turbo washed is entirely because of the salary floor and vet min, and its super inflated from his actual market value.

Outrageous_Hornet_96

143 | 5 hours ago

Probably need to use median salary to respond here instead of total pay increases to understand if Bruce Browns claim can be refuted or not

ThatBull_cj | PHI

31 | 4 hours ago

The players are still getting the same percentage of the cap. The amount of players making between 10-25% of the cap probably would be interesting to compare I guess

satchymo | DAL

1 | 2 hours ago

So first round rookies and I guess regular vets? It is interesting the people who sign the mle cause it’s usually like the last roster spots.

It’s like a oops here ya go

ktm5141 | PHI

51 | 5 hours ago

Median salary as a percentage of the cap tbh

SquimJim | BOS

8 | 3 hours ago

Yea, the numbers don’t mean a whole lot unless we’re talking percentages of the cap

Based on a recent post on here, it looks like the NBA’s upper and middle class are actually doing better, but the lower class (bottom 250) are not

butternut_squash | TOR

3 | 3 hours ago

This post from earlier in the day shows a good analysis across 10 tiers of salaries. Bruce Brown’s claims are mostly refuted.

https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1x1i5nx/the_new_cba_is_killing_the_middle_class/

nullstellensatz1

2 | 4 hours ago

In terms of distribution of salaries, nothing has changed about max/supermax players. The 35% supermax was introduced in 2017, they’re not suddenly taking a larger percentage of payroll. The new CBA increased the MLE as a percentage of cap and made the second round pick exception, so teams can sign their starters and roleplayers under cap before resolving second round salaries.

tallassmike | GSW

1 | 2 hours ago

Can they structure super max extensions to be incentives deals or something? The players association wanted to get rid of that when AD basically got screwed due to injury (as he should have)

nullstellensatz1

1 | an hour ago

I don’t think so, but incentives still count for apron salary, so it wouldn’t matter anyway. If you’ll recall, Cam Johnson was only making like $20 million a couple years ago, but his incentives took him up to $27 million or something like that, so a bunch of teams couldn’t trade for him under the second apron

tangential_quip | LAL

2 | 3 hours ago

Brown said that there aren’t many guys getting the full mid-level. This statement by the NBA doesn’t address that at all and looking at median salary wouldn’t either. Brown’s comment addresses a discrete issue that should be very easy to evaluate by just looking year to year how many players received the full mid-level exception.

deemerritt | CHA

-4 | 3 hours ago

Bruce Brown is just saying this because he is completely washed and cant find a team willing to burn a roster spot on him. The idea that he is crusading for other players is asinine.

tangential_quip | LAL

2 | 2 hours ago

Why he said it doesn’t matter.

deemerritt | CHA

1 | 2 hours ago

You will find that every player bitching about the CBA is doing it when their contract is up because they will get paid less than they might have before. Half the time im not sure its even true. KAT has a legit gripe but even then I doubt that many teams would have been thrilled to give a 31 year old KAT 70 million a year under the old system either.

Every CBA like this has winners and losers, for the most part the guys hardest hit by the new CBA so far are tier 2 stars who would have been max guys before, and promising rookies with all star potential but not surefire production. Jaylen Brown, KAT, Brandon Miller, the Thompsons, Duren, all fit into those categories of guys who probably get a max before just to have the asset, but now teams are negotiating.

You could also argue that this is just as much about teambuilding and that teams are just prioritizing depth, which also helps the middle class of guys.

[deleted]

1 | an hour ago

[deleted]

deemerritt | CHA

1 | 3 hours ago

I mean there are fewer maxes being given out and the total spending has increased. Where else is the money going

CMYGQZ | MEM

113 | 5 hours ago

They could’ve used so many other methods that are more convincing, but total salary is like the worst way to demonstrate this. This growth would’ve happened without the second apron anyways.

Naw726 | NYK

23 | 5 hours ago

yeah genuinely idiotic to even bring that up

foye2smith

7 | 4 hours ago

Salaries are tied to percentage of the cap though and still teams are arguably spending more than they ever have in proportion to the cap.

Numbers per spotrac

NBA teams never needed the 1st or 2nd aprons as excuses to skimp out on paying to the highest levels.

OzmosisJones | BOS

6 | 4 hours ago

Right, but this is the worst possibly logic for “has the apron impacted player salaries.”

Essentially every player in the league has annual raises built into his salary, and as the cap increases so do all the salary thresholds (vet min, MLE, etc.)

The apron changes could be the literal worst possible thing for player salaries, but a the data above would still show positive as long as the league gained enough revenue to continue the cap increases.

foye2smith

6 | 4 hours ago

But teams are spending into the 1st apron. Teams are spending into the 2nd apron.

A decade ago a vast majority of teams simply drew their line in the sand for spending at the tax threshold, below even the 1st apron, when the penalties were only financial.

Coupled with the aprons they also increased the salary floor and I believe they made it mandatory to reach it by opening night.

I’m not arguing certain players aren’t getting squeezed. I’m arguing they’ve always gotten squeezed and the aprons are an easy boogeyman to point at.

smalls_1804 | NYK

1 | an hour ago

Players receive 51% of basketball related income no matter what the sum total of their salaries. This idea that players as a whole lost because of the 2nd apron is based solely on not understanding this basic fact, which is fair, it’s relatively obscure, but it is a misunderstanding nonetheless

nullstellensatz1

1 | 3 hours ago

The reason for this is that the new CBA reduced tax bills below the second apron, so teams are incentivized to spend above the tax but below the second apron.

Tax bracket | Pre-2023 | Post-2023

0-100% | $1.50-for-$1 | $1.00-for-$1

100%-200% | $1.75-for-$1 | $1.25-for-$1

200%-300% | $2.50-for-$1 | $3.50-for-$1

deemerritt | CHA

2 | 3 hours ago

This is largely good for the players though, the list of teams willing to go over the first apron is much longer than the list of teams willing to go over the second apron.

nullstellensatz1

2 | 3 hours ago

Yes, I agree. I think the CBA has done a good job incentivizing spending by teams. People that think the second apron is discouraging spending don’t seem to be aware that nobody spent over the equivalent of the second apron before the new CBA

JoeBiden2020FTW | BOS

2 | 4 hours ago

This growth would’ve happened without the second apron anyways.

Total spending as a percentage of league revenue has gone up with the new CBA.

The percentage allocated to players has gone up
The definition of BRI has expanded

cpt-teebs

1 | 4 hours ago

It wouldn’t have happened without the broader CBA which increased the pot of money available to go to players by expanding the definition of BRI. I agree that their post could be more precise but what you’re saying is flatly inaccurate.

OpeDefinitely | IND

6 | 4 hours ago

2nd apron was also designed to increase parity, and which was a play to get fans engaged in every single market. Intent was to limit opportunity costs and increase BRI, and ultimately increase the cap.

3luejays | TOR

1 | 4 hours ago

Was 2nd apron introduced in the latest CBA (2023)? Because if so, 2019-2022 saw a different champ every year. Parity was already underway before the latest CBA

refugee_man

1 | 3 hours ago

Yes, but that doesn’t fit the narrative that people want to push so it’s ignored.

SantosCalzonesBatman | SAS

1 | 4 hours ago

This is exactly what people dont get

Long term MLB players are gonna be better off if teams like the As or pirates actually have to field a competitive roster cause they would attract more fans, which would increase the overall revenue

3luejays | TOR

2 | 3 hours ago

Idk if the As are a good example, their owner did everything he could to move the team. The belief is he’s gearing up to sell once the stadium is up and running in LV

justlobos22

2 | 3 hours ago

Will they tho? Dynasties drive ratings and interest. One example is I tuned into Toronto vs LA world series last year because I wanted to see the Dodgers lose.

refugee_man

1 | 3 hours ago

So the MLBPA should advocate for a salary floor. A ceiling or cap only limits player salaries.

Gordo103

-1 | 3 hours ago

This is the point that baseball players need to understand. Having parity in baseball would greatly benifit them in the long run. A select few of the super stars may get squeezed a litte, but the middle class of players would benifit Having a couple of super teams does not grow the leagues popularity, but if every team can compete more people will watch. Every other major sport has figured this out. Basketball used to be more like baseball, but the last 10 years things have changed.

Lost-Photo-631

-1 | 4 hours ago

Agreed. A more interesting data point from the league would be how much BRI has grown due to the expansion of the definition (I believe more things count as licensing revenue.)

BetweenTheBuzzAndMe | CHA

37 | 5 hours ago

this has nothing to do with the second apron at all. that’s the salary cap exploding

DaJuggerHobbit | ATL

8 | 5 hours ago

Yeah, this is stupid. Correlation is not causation, particularly when a much better explanation exists.

ShakethatYam | LAC

4 | 4 hours ago

This is like when Trump talks about how great the stock market’s doing when we have rampant inflation.

Ronnie2kDropCode | NYK

2 | 4 hours ago

Cause the players know they got screwed over with the second apron lmao

deemerritt | CHA

1 | 3 hours ago

I think the second stars on teams will make less money but i think that has more to do with just the way teambuilding works in the deeper league than the second apron.

JoeBiden2020FTW | BOS

-2 | 4 hours ago

This is a dumb way of reading their statement.

They’re not saying the 2nd apron caused the salary increases.

The statement just says that player salaries have not gone down since the 2nd apron, in fact they’ve gone up significantly. So there’s not a clear line you can draw that the 2nd apron hurt mid-tier player salaries.

bbank8744 | NYK

11 | 5 hours ago

Very funny they’re saying the number of players on the rosters have remained the same when there is a minimum of 14 players (can do 13 for a few days) and a maximum of 15. Yea no kidding guys.

UFmoose | NYK

20 | 5 hours ago

Interesting way to frame it considering that is mostly due to the salary cap and not the second apron.

Cap increased $41.3 million per team since the apron was introduced. Multiply that by 30 teams and 3 seasons and it’s $3.72 billion in additional money paid out to players or almost $1.3 billion per year.

This has zero to do with the apron. It has to do with the salary cap.

Edit: Obviously this is rough math. Not sure if they are talking about money paid out, contracted, etc. Point stands either way.

cpt-teebs

0 | 4 hours ago

It’s not entirely due to the salary cap though. The CBA opened other avenues for higher pay including higher MLE, higher by annual exception, and other things that contributed to cap growth like BRI

UFmoose | NYK

3 | 4 hours ago

Sure. But it’s not 1.3B due to the second apron’s existence, which is the point I’m making. I also said in the edit that it was rough math.

Rrypl | BOS

7 | 4 hours ago

Since the implementation of the second apron, the number of basketballs in play and the number of baskets on each side of the court has remained the same!

MostlyMellow123 | SAC

5 | 5 hours ago

Yeah the 2nd apron increased the spending everyone!

Dont look at the gambling ads!

BlueCollarGoldSwaggr

5 | 5 hours ago

A) The players as a whole receive 51% of revenue no matter what.

B) a player’s actual take home pay is close to but not exactly equal to the stated salary on their contract because it’s impossible to know exactly how much revenue will be generated in a given season and what the total value of all player contracts will be.

ShotgunStyles | SAC

9 | 5 hours ago

Baghdad Bob says that there’s nothing wrong with the 2nd apron and that everyone loves the 2nd apron, actually.

livecents84 | GSW

3 | 5 hours ago

How much more player movement is there Adam? How much team continuity exists?

_Wash | MIN

3 | 4 hours ago

cap went up like always and rosters have a minimum.

hilarious nothings from the NBA

Ryoga476ad

3 | 4 hours ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/F090UJbfAA

This would have been more effective, I posted it a few hours ago.

Dukester10071 | BKN

3 | 4 hours ago

There is zero correlation between these things

guitarpatch

3 | 4 hours ago

And how many players are getting their max extensions when eligible?

noknownothing

8 | 4 hours ago

This sounds like trickle down economics mental gymnastics. The apron for sure wasn’t put in place to help players, and they seem to hate it. And it sucks for fans. So there’s only one group that is happy about it. It’s the owners. Fuck them, honestly.

b2thaza

4 | 5 hours ago

Number of players on rosters are the same? OF COURSE THEY ARE!

HipnotiK1 | NYK

2 | 5 hours ago

Curious how they’re calculating this.

Clemsontigger16

2 | 5 hours ago

How is this a measure of anything? Obviously the number of players on rosters will stay the same?

tallassmike | GSW

1 | 4 hours ago

pretty much a nothing burger.

The pay scale to player on roster hasn’t changed. #1 and #2 get max or near max. #3 will either get a near max which makes everybody else a low class millionaire, or they will actually distribute the 2nd string evenly.

You get the Knicks situation where they are trying to get everyone paid closer to each other. But of course KAT is complaining as he is entitled to be higher than the rest of the starting 5. Not playing along

Dazzling-Slide8288

1 | 3 hours ago

They’re mentioning that because some people would think they’re just paying more players so of course there’s more money. The NBA wants people to know the denominator hasn’t changed.

Clemsontigger16

1 | 3 hours ago

No one would think that?….people understand roster sizes are the same with very little room for variation and that salary caps go up over time.

SkyOk9445 | China

2 | 4 hours ago

3rd grade math class, what’s the median? and how much has it increased relative to minimum and maximum earners

jsun_ | LAL

2 | 3 hours ago

Kind of a disingenuous way to present this. Of course player salary has increased. The cap has increased so all salaries will also increase proportionally.

SEJ46 | UTA

2 | 3 hours ago

Lol, try harder “NBA Communications”

donuttrackme | SAS

2 | 5 hours ago

That doesn’t mean anything. I guess it helps to confuse people who don’t know anything about statistics/economics/math.

ThePurpleBandit

2 | 4 hours ago

The rich will always fight for rules that keep them rich by pretending it hurts the people they continue to exploit.

18hartsem

1 | 5 hours ago

Need more source lol, how are they getting to these numbers?

12clrush | CLE

1 | 3 hours ago

Correlation does not equal causation.

ChefCurryYumYum | GSW

1 | 3 hours ago

Are they adjusting those salaries for the increase in the salary cap or not?

Because if not it’s just theater.

refugee_man

1 | 3 hours ago

Ahh, NBA PR. A truly unbiased source of information about player compensation.

Also I’m assuming that the salary increases are just due to the rising revenues.

thy_armageddon | NYK

1 | 3 hours ago

You can tell it’s definitely actually a good thing because they felt the need to put out a memo. You only put out memos to remind people how good things actually are.

internet_poster

1 | 3 hours ago

exciting that the NBA has an internal definition of “classes of players”

Little_Obligation_90

1 | 5 hours ago

Players in aggregate are definitely making a lot more money. The spend thrift teams (GSW and LAC) were only 2 teams and 14 players who were making excess bank.

One of the main changes was raising the salary floor so more teams are spending more. All the complainers never noticed that.

deemerritt | CHA

1 | 3 hours ago

People genuienly dont understand the math here at all. Ive never seen so many people be unwilling to understand that the NBA players did super well in the last negotiation outside of a handful of tier two stars who will now be paid less.

Maximum-Class5465

0 | 4 hours ago

False causation

It’s increased by 30% because the revenue sharing amount increased

The ramifications of the second apron didn’t hit hard until revenue came in lower than projections, it’s a one year problem and Bruce Brown was right

ThatBull_cj | PHI

1 | 4 hours ago

How? The same amount of guys on rosters and the players are still making the same amount percentage wise. Technically they are making more percentage wise

Ronnie2kDropCode | NYK

-1 | 4 hours ago

Players association got hosed and they know it

MultiPass21

-1 | 4 hours ago

This is going to be used as propaganda in the upcoming MLB labor negotiations.

They’re counting on people not being smart enough to see right through it. The second apron has nothing to do with either of those things.

SantosCalzonesBatman | SAS

1 | 4 hours ago

Is it propaganda when its literally the truth based on factura statistics?

MultiPass21

1 | 2 hours ago

When they’re telling you second apron is the cause, yes.

[NBA Communications] Since the implementation of the second apron, the number of players on team rosters has remained the same and annual salaries have increased by nearly $1.3 billion resulting in pay increases of approximately 30% for all classes of players.