Jaylen Brown has honed his skills to survive the new off-arm rules.
It’s amazing that people fail to understand that pro athletes have the ability to adjust to the rules. He had to hone nothing, if the push off was not called he would still do it. He already knew how not to push off, he was just taking advantage of the lax rules
NBA Old Heads: “Guys today would get called for traveling every play if they went back in time”
Maybe twice, then a pro athlete makes adjustments
But they would actually call travel. That’s what we want
It’s not old heads it’s people that were alive less than 10 years ago when the NBA changed the way they called fouls on shots and Lillard and Embiid birched enough to get it changed after like 2 weeks lmao
Everyone who is alive was alive less than 10 years ago
NBA Old Heads: sigh “Yeah, we f****‘n know that. It would just be harder to get separation if they weren’t allowed to travel, so the defense would be in better position.”
Same logic as when people say 90s players wouldn’t cut it in the 3 point era.
It’s a lot trickier to learn how to shoot vs slightly changing how you dribble. Plus players today are generally more athletic
The USA famously struggles in the Olympics due to stricter/different rules /s
Thats why I want ai refs. They will call everything, which will suck at first, but players will adjust.
To be honest, the ai refs will probably be even more corrupt though.
No one is intentionally training illegal push offs since there’s a possibility on any given day, refs could call it. Everyone practices driving properly and adjusting is basically trivial. I do think there are other things though (i.e. carries on hang dribble, travel on rip through, feet shuffling on post ups) that players are actually intentionally training to do the illegal version that would be harder to adjust to and could actually hurt some player’s ability to score.
Poole was absolutely nuked by the new carrying rules.
They were calling it in the playoffs last year and he didn’t adjust.
Calling it inconsistently, yeah.
He got called for 10 offensive fouls in that series, double the next closest player
they didnt call it when he pushed maxey 10 feet into embiids knees
This is what people don’t get when they complain that refs should “Let players play” and swallow their whistles. That works until players realize they won’t get called for fouls, then they start mucking up the game with as much physicality as they can get away with.
It’s always going to be a cycle.
Which just makes it more obnoxious when they inevitably welch on the change
Same people that think SGA would become a scrub without the foul calls.
it’s literally the same thing with flops, if the NBA called it more players wouldn’t do it. it’s just smart to take advantage of the rules to make the outcome of games more in your favour
Eh, that’s like saying it’s smart to steal from kids because they can’t stop you. Have some integrity and get buckets.
I’m pretty sure that saying crimes are smart is almost a quote from a famous politician.
He said it about not paying taxes. But he also got convicted of 34 felonies afterwards, so …
To complete this metaphor you need to be in a competitive scenario where someone else is getting an edge over you by stealing from kids when you’re not.
Apparently I am. You all have no integrity.
it’s not the same because kids aren’t getting paid millions of dollars to win games. I’m not arguing integrity, I am arguing the logic of it. to quote Vin Diesel “doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or win by a mile, winning is winning”
There’s a difference between winning by an inch or a mile and winning because you hit your opponent with a brick.
Apples to oranges bro
My hot take here is that one of the reasons you never see refs call points of emphasis for more than a couple months is that players adjust accordingly.
Its what pissed us off about Harden so badly during his prime. He didnt need to do that stuff. He could dominate at every level offensively. He chose that scummy rule bending stuff.
Same goes for flopping. If refs actually starting calling it a tech or something that hurt the player/team - they would adjust and stop doing it very quickly.
It’s the same for racing they push the rules. I love that little gray area.
Its the same with Shai, people failed to realize how good he is even without the foul calls. He does it because they call it, but he’s proved he can score regardless.
I think everyone knows how good he is. We just hate watching it
The issue is it’s the difference between players like SGA dropping 30 points on 60% shooting instead dropping 26 on 55% shooting.
The way the games called allows for players to score easily and maintain absurd efficiency. To be a scorer like a Kobe, your efficiency would take a larger hit as volume went up. Modern stars maintain that efficiency because of the lax rules giving them far more freedom to create buckets and get free throws. It’s just too easy to score in the nba. Even rookie Luka came in and said immediately the nba is far easier for offense than euro league
EXACTLY.
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This is such a dumb take. He’d adjust and stop foul baiting.
… and then he would have 15ppg
Theres no way you believe a prime Harden wouldnt get 25+ a game without foulbaiting lol.
He was 6moty on the Thunder and basically sat in a corner and launched 3s or a crossover into a nasty dunk.
Harden was destined to be a great, but D’antoni taught him how to work the refs.
well he’s a million years old. prime harden would average 30 either way
Yes, the most talented athletes in the world would never be able to adjust to minor rule changes.
This is how he’s mostly always done it. But for some reason last year they decided that nobody was calling push offs so he started extending that arm cus why not lol. Then they randomly started calling it on him in the playoffs
Funny thing is this used to be a push off too
Ehh? This is how I was taught back in 03. Creates the separation With the bump and the shoulder to the chest saps the endurance of the defender. everyone was doing it. Early 00s games were wars or attrition.
It’s taught in junior school. The offensive player initiating contact with the shoulder while driving to the rim has always been part of fundamental basketball
Were you in the NBA? I’m not saying it wasn’t taught. I’m just saying there are plenty of clips of this being called offensive in the past still and nowadays, the refs would never even consider it.
Yeah they would call it if the defender was feet were not moving leading to the offensive foul. If you and i are moving I have every right to that position if I bounce of you it a perfectly okay move in the books.
Was it? Lol this is way less than the famous Jordan clip
Yes. I’m not saying it was always called. There are plenty of clips of it being called though whereas nowadays it would never be called in a million years.
was gonna say this was still considered a push off
No this is not a push off, you’re allowed to use your shoulder
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/jYCQ1m4IGT
So you think every center from the 90’s/2000s using their shoulder to back people down was offensive fouls? These clips don’t really mean anything when you could pull 10x more going the other way. It also has to do if the defender is set and use of “excessive force” per the rules. The excessive force part is up to interpretation, extending the arm and pushing off is not.
Who is upvoting this obviously wrong statement lol
People who actually watched basketball back then. There was literally a post that made it to the front page a few weeks ago that showed plenty of calls just like this lol
Edit: here I found it for you https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/jYCQ1m4IGT
Brother this is not anything like those clips idk what to tell you. This is marginal contact, there will obviously be some amount of forceful contact when someone is driving to the basket, that’s just how basketball works. I think you’re looking at this through tinted lenses from JBs history. His arm barely moved and he didn’t lean into the defender.
No
They called it in the playoffs because the defender, like maxey or oubre, flopped on the push off. He would straight up shove them away. This looks nothing like that. He used his shoulder to create space, his elbow wasnt extended at all. He didnt push off at all.
Yeah pretty much. He was pushing off and getting away with it most of the year tho, and I agree this was not a push off.
As a fan, I can live with a body bump like this. A defender could still relatively recover. The push offs are egregious or maybe I’m a bitter pacers fan tired of unethical basketball. 😂
Nah they definitely let the push offs get out of hand. I’m a Celtic fan and Tatum/brown have definitely both benefitted from doing that but it’s not bball.
Glad it’s not just me. I know our guys occasionally do it (siakam is usually the culprit despite also getting beat up), but it feels like you literally can’t be a superstar without it. The amount of Brunson, SGA, Brown/Tatum, wide open midranges I’ve seen over a handful of playoff series is maddening. 😂
Not last season, he used the chicken wing push off a lot.
When this rule change was mentioned the other day I specifically wrote that the player it would most affect was brown.
His adjustment is very good, but he was very much a chicken wing guy
Did you read past the first few words of dudes comment?
Reading is hard. He started doing it last year because sga won an mvp doing it
I mean, it’s early and I’m hung over so you’re right my reading comprehension in this thread has been pretty poor
lol no worries, happens to the best of us
I don’t get why people like you pick specific players and claim they do it more than others. And it’s usually Brown and Tatum for some reason. When in reality the large majority of stars have been doing this, all of them just as much as anyone else. You really think Brown did it more than SGA for example??
Because I watch a lot of basketball and see how different players play.
If I said Deni Advija did this a lot I would be wrong. He always leads with his shoulder, same with Brunson.
But brown used the chicken wing a lot.
No, you’d be 100% wrong. Deni uses his arm a LOT.
It’s a lot more noticeable and annoying when two high-volume push off guys are on the same team
This is normal tho right? I thought the issue was the extension of the arm. This is type of push off is what the older generations did back in the day
Yes, it’s normal. This is where the push off started, players using their body in motion to bump players before taking the step back.
It has evolved into using the arm and shoulder to actually push the defender away even further. He’s walking a line here, but as long as the arm doesn’t extend they won’t call this. Brown last year was pushing a lot more and getting caught with the arm extension
for some reason i vaguely remember a time when even dropping the shoulder a little to create that contact was sometimes called an offensive foul.
my memory’s not great though. and i might even be thinking about college ball, which IIRC is officiated pretty differently
Yea, it’s developed over time. It started with driving or faking the drive, there would be body contact and movement backwards by the defender that would allow you to use their momentum against them. That turned into dropping the shoulder and stepping into the person and then stepping back, which eventually lead to stepping in with arm and shoulder and driving into the defender while pushing with your body
It was called an offensive foul because they dropped their shoulder into a set defender and knocked them over. Post play is basically ramming your shoulder/back into a defender. Embiid went away from the post game because players like marcus smart would basically flop on the bump. Putting a strong but small guard to front a post player and have a rim protector shadow is how you defend post play. Embiid had to deal with this, he adjusted. Jokic is the one who has to adjust to this style of defense now. The wolves used it against him twice.
Yeah, this is a basic basketball move. The extension is the issue because it is almost impossible to defend if you have backwards momentum.
No, the norms around lowering your shoulder and initiating contact as an offensive player have completely changed over time. There is no “normal” there is only how it’s currently called.
Look at this compilation of 80s offensive fouls from a single half and you’ll see this move would’ve been called a charge.
https://youtu.be/pC_LrD6hYjI?is=33xjpVPErcyNzPj2
youre actually trained to get your shoulder into defenders
Its just extending the arm to get space, which really started once people started doing more stepback jumpers, that is illegal
Yeah it’s 100% normal and legal. You’re allowed to bump with the shoulder, you just can’t extend the forearm.
The issue was always the players trying to see how far they could take it and the league and officials allowing full arm extension push off. Unless the defender goes down/back from the shoulder move it’s never getting called.
He could have done more and it still be legal. So long as your elbow stays attached to your frame, you can push off with your forearm. That’s what they call a chicken wing. Here, it looks like just a shoulder bump
I love that this is somehow a new rule. It’s always been a rule that you can’t push off to gain advantage. NBA just didn’t want to call it because they were making money off players who did it. Now because enough people have complained about it, it’s a new rule.
It’s new rule for preseason and maybe 1 early season game they use to set an example. Their flopping rule was the same way.
Ppg tanked in those weeks, so they had a heart attack I’d bet.
It’s not a new rule.
Shai got 2 MVPs out of it before the league decided to do anything
Shai got 2 MVPs because he was that good. No rule change would have changed that. You’re delusional and a casual if you think otherwise.
Actually not a new rule. More of a new interpretation and enforcement of the current rule.
It’s not even a new interpretation. You are taught at camps as a kid that refs look for the extended arm. Thats when the whistle will blow more than it doesn’t. You can get away with a lot but if the ref sees that elbow extended boom you are done.
Every year he goes into the offseason to work on something. Get’s better at it. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if this was one of the things he worked on.
Is it just me or wasn’t this always the rule? It just wasn’t called as much?
Yes there was no rule change. Just an empahsis on what to look out for. And a bunch of neckbeards in this subreddit claiming players like sga, luka and jb somehow get 50% of their points on pushoffs.
Push offs definitely have become a huge piece of some players’ bags though.
I don’t think most people think any of these guys couldn’t score without pushing off.
But I don’t know how you could watch many games last season and not notice all the times players drive, stop while pushing their defender off to make space, and either take the step back or abuse the defender’s recovery (frequently by jumping into the recovering defender to draw a foul)
Bang on.
I don’t claim to have a shaven neck or anything, but have you watched sga play?
The (basketball) world is healing. Now let’s fix dribbling
Nothing wrong with this, that’s just good basketball there
I was taught to lower my shoulder when I was like 12 years old. Nothing wrong here. Defender needs to be ready to take the charge.
Shai did the same thing all year and people called him hitler for it
SGA’s bad push offs look nothing like this. I’m not going to sit here and exaggerate like all SGA does is push off, he’s a baller and most of his shots are clean (besides the foul baiting). But Shai absolutely does full push offs frequently, and does not keep his lead arm down like the above video
That is a beautiful offensive move.. good job NBA.. now lets see how long y’all enforce it
I swear I have seen this move plenty of times last yr lol
Yeah, this is a fundamental basketball move. Look for the bump, create seperation. So, yeah you should have seen it a lot. It’s the extended arm that is illegal and makes a defenders life miserable.
Well yeah you got Shai on your team. Must really be used to it.
Yeah it’s nice having the MVP and FMVP 😊
Coming from an OKC bandwagoner
You don’t even have a flair lol
Touché
So you’re admitting Shai wasn’t actually pushing off?
Yeah I can see it being misinterpreted that way. Got me:)
This was just a nice move
Its only a problem if you extend your arm fully
An actual legal bump. I love it.
This is and always has been a completely legal basketball move. The stiff arm that we’ve seen for the past like 10 years was always illegal. Hopefully they keep calling it like this.
This actually has not always been a legal move. Displacing the defender when your momentum even without an extended arm is really only a recent development. Wasnt allowed in the 00s or before.
Displacing defenders with your momentum was not allowed? Isn’t that how Shaq dominated the early 2000s. 🤔
If you watch most of the videos from then, the emphasis was on footwork to beat someone to empty space. If both players arrive at the empty space at the same time, nobody is getting displaced.
Shaq was so big that people concentrate on his strength but he also had incredible footwork and touch (outside of free throws).
The problem is Shaq took like 10 fouls just posting up before he committed his 1 offensive foul so the refs had to either foul out the entire other team or let Shaq do it.
No, classic post play was not about lowering your shoulder to physically push someone back.
If you watch this clip, despite appearances Shaq (almost) never really pushes anyone, he’s spinning and/or faking around them into open space: https://youtu.be/NvxnPWb0Fl0?is=ENPfmHT6XWWSgW5L
(though there are a couple of uncalled offensive fouls in this clip, too)
I agree I’m more specifically talking about drives, the shai or giannis style of driving at their opponents chest to create contact wasn’t allowed. Plenty of clips from the 2000s of players like McGrady and AI getting penalised for the same type of move.
are you saying posting up was illegal before the 200s?
No, imo post situations are and have always been adjudicated differently with a lot more permissible contact. I’m specifically talking about players driving into someone’s chest and using the momentum from your drive to force them back rather than beating them to the spot.
This is just like boxing somebody out. Winning the space. If he used his momentum to push the guy away from him, illegal.
This is an offensive foul basically any time before 2010 I think.
It’s the push off the stiff arm that is illegal. The stiff arm itself was a staple for many of the 2000s swingmen.
I don’t think this video is even an attempt of a stiff arm. OG is tough to move so JB adjusts with a step back
Keeping your arm up to guard the ball has always been legal but using it to push a defender out of the way is the thing they’re calling now.
I agree, that was the point I was trying to make.
Ah I misunderstood! I’m with you 🤝
This dude is so GD good
That’s how it should’ve always been in the first place.
This is so much better. I hope the consistently call it.
This is trivial for most players to adjust to
Good thing they didn’t make a rule against dribbling the ball off your own foot
Now the NBA needs to start calling defenders being allowed to push the back of offensive players during drives to the rim. This started during the last two years. Refs not calling it. That is how to make the game less exciting as players are less likely to take high flying dunk chances. And they literally can’t explode as an arm is pushing them.
Yeah I like this sooooo much more than the stiff arm. We going to see who been hitting the weight room fr
That rule isn’t new lol. The refs just weren’t doing their jobs right
I always thought the one-arm push off, aka the Shai/Luka, was such a weird thing.
It gave the defenders no chance to defend
Luka isn’t even in the top 10 of players to do it
Yeah, that’d be Harden. He and LeBron have made careers off of it.
All those Harden “ankle breakers” are just shoving a defender when they’re shifting their weight.
LeBron does the literal roll cage with the arm bar when he brings the ball up under pressure. Always thought it was so weird the game progressed to a point to where dudes could do this night in and night out cause it’s been a thing for over a decade now
Shai has always done the shoulder bump, never really extending
This is how it’s been supposed to have been done, you couldn’t extend the arm even before this year, had to be like a push with the elbow basically. This is nothing different.
Basketball is a contact sport.
JB>>>>JT
lol
his midrange wasn’t good to start with, but make it into a fadeaway and it’s going to turn ugly
Yeah, he falls in love with it too much, especially after he started last year so hot from midrange. Its a good counter, but he’s forced into it too much because he doesnt get to the rim on a bunch of his drives any more.
He was amazing at it in the championship year, it was pretty much automatic. I felt confident it would go in every time too. Since then I would agree that he’d at times force it due to that
I think its just the volume. Defenses expect it now and he has a good not great handle, so even on midranges he doesnt really create space. Not really a shot create, but a tough shot maker.
Yeah, I would agree with the volume thing. He went away from driving a lot last season. Part of that is probably because he was the main guy with Tatum out and driving tires you out a lot
By traveling? This is why the nba is so unwatchable
He only took 2 steps with the stepback after gathering the ball.
Thats still traveling
i mean, this should be an offensive foul too… initiates contact with a lowered shoulder?
JB got the good ref whistle. Remember when he rearranged Okongwu’s teeth with a tiger elbow and refs gave him only a flagrant 1 when it should have been a much heavier suspension.
That is absolutely a clean shoulder bump. This is ball 101.
Believe it when I see it regularly tho. He’s been a walking offensive foul for years
Very close to travelling, but not traveling. I like it!
Surprised JB didn’t hit him with the Tiger elbow like he did Okongwu.
The shoulder checks honestly bother me more. The extended arm at least has some plausibility as a legit move. The shoulder check doesn’t, it’s just an offensive foul that they ignore, or call as a defensive foul.
Still a travel