Plus the cap spiking in 2016

Every dynasty requires a massive stroke of luck, if not several.

• Draft the greatest PG ever with a territorial pick while you have a 6 time MVP in his peak on the roster. Have the 1st overall pick after you’ve just won the title because of a trade.

• Pick one of the greatest players ever and let him return to college while you get more high picks and assets.

• Draft the GOAT and have him on a shit deal for 4 out of 6 titles, have his costar on a shit deal for all 6.

• Have a 13th pick out of high school become a top 10 player ever. Wins a title on rookie scale contract, wins two more as the 23-31st highest paid player while being 9th and 5th in MVP voting.

• Draft the most selfless superstar ever, win a title in 2nd year while he’s making rookie scale money. Have his costars be late draft picks that come in cheap and make 30th-50th highest salaries in the league while making AS teams - pick up 3 titles in 5 years. Get another generational player at the 15th pick, win another while he’s on a rookie scale contract.

Harrison Barnes leaving the team also left some money for KD to come in

The same thing with the Bulls in the 90s. A combination of Pippen signing a below market deal due to injury fears and Jordan being off the books for a 1 ¹⁄₂ seasons is what set the foundation of their 3 peat after Jordan returned.

I agree on the contract, but the Warriors drafting well isn’t coincidence. Drafting talent is one of the most important parts of creating a winning team.

Nah, 2nd apron needs to be gone now… Ignore my flair!

Me too, I just find the hoarding of generational wealth, so annoying to watch. Like ‘oh, I will make 50 million a year not 70, how disrespectful’. Especially when renouncing that extra cash can go on making the team better as a whole, and if all superstars had that attitude then the NBA would still have parity, it would just come from teams being collectively unselfish and working together to construct the best roster rather than it happening due to the teams imploding in on themselves.

That’s the other thing, the fans. The fans are the reason you’re able to play the game that you love for a living, they earn in their lifetime less than you make in a couple of weeks, and you’re saying to them ‘thanks for the payday and ring, I’m out of here, ownership didn’t want to financially hamstring the organisation going forward, and my team mates who make less than I do continued to not surrender their wealth to my demands for gold, so I’m leaving. Enjoy a slow and frustrating rebuild, I’m going to go out and sign a sponsorship for several more million with an exploitative betting company, your love and support never meant anything to me’

Exactly! One does not simply luck into generational big men

2 in 3 years isn’t quite a dynasty but the Thunder will be favored again this year and will take it if healthy.

Miami in 2020 and 2023, losing both times

Ehh, they keep losing more and more depth each season, and it’s gonna get extra rough once SGA’s supermax hits next season

without a max it would be more of a negotiation. One top player would get a contract at $X amount and kind of set the market. Other players in similar ranking would push for similar deals.

Having max contract protects the owners from themselves, spreads the wealth around, and makes negotiations simpler for star players who are worth more than the max

It starts by limiting the ability to make moves and then starts being punitive by moving the teams picks to the end of the first round automatically.

Those limits are vastly oversold by front offices to save the owner from paying 5 bucks for every dollar spent 20 million over the luxury tax threshold.

• You can spend two years in the 2nd apron without your draft picks being frozen. For the Knicks, that leaves an additional 3 year window with this year + the next two paying KAT and Brunson.

• Salary aggregation is not an issue for a team with two players making nearly supermax money, while two others are making regular rookie max money. You have a lot of options to trade salaries straight up. If Knicks aggregated any more salaries, they’d literally be just the starting lineup all getting paid 40-70 million.

People forget about this. Just look at the Suns. They decimated their roster and future.

if you have a relatively young championship team you don’t need to make any moves. they could have kept Robinson and extended all their guys and run it back just fine.

If you have a championship team already built what moves do you need to make. The 2nd apron to me hurts teams that may be 1 piece away. All we had to do was retain everyone we won a championship with. There was no need to make additional moves. If we didn’t repeat we could of just made trades in the summer to dip below it again. This makes me believe it was more about the tax penalty than about moves

Lets just say money is not a question for you as an owner. Personally the choice is easy: if youre a top team you should extend the window in which you are a top team for a couple more years at the expense of being bad after the window closes. If it is supposedly an era of parity you can work your way back up more quickly than before.

But money is a question and the luxury tax is the biggest motivator against doing this.

Dolan has never paid a tax this high. The highest tax he has ever paid has been like 45M if we went into the 2nd apron it would be closer to 100M. There is no history to fall back on to say it isn’t about money.

Just keep the 2nd apron rules in place to make flat out “buying” a championship/dynasty by just paying the repeater tax still mostly impossible.

Then add a way to promote the talent of development/scouting/drafting of a teams FO by giving player contracts on teams they were drafted too a discount towards the salary cap while still paying the same dollar amount.

They should also promote franchise loyalty between players/teams by removing the stupid salary cap % increase to max contracts as their years in the League increase like they should have done years ago.

Having max contracts for players drafted by the team only hitting them for 20-25% of the cap even if their getting payed 25-35% in actuality instantly gives teams much more room to build a lasting dynasty that feels like it belongs to the team and it’s fans…

This model is flawed though. Teams getting robbed of opportunities to compete for B2B championships or even three-peats because of the current cap rules suck.

They didn’t repeat because of injuries then. Not only did they not downgrade the roster (before this offseason) because of the 2nd apron, they actively got better on paper.

JDub and Ajay getting injured has nothing to do with the 2nd apron. If you say it’s era of parity because injuries are more common, that’s a completely different argument than “OMG it’s the 2nd apron making it impossible to repeat”.

They had 3 players and all minimums around them. Only reason team can’t win like that now is depth is more important. But that’s more cause of injuries. A team could still build that type of roster easily

My Miami Heat won 3 by being able to afford 3 near max players.

They weren’t near max, though. They famously (especially LeBron) took considerable pay cuts. Miami didn’t have any players in the top 20 in salary when the Big 3 formed. LeBron was making about 74% of Rashard Lewis’ salary when he went to Miami.

If they all actually did take near max contracts, it would not have been possible.

Heat didn’t have anywhere near 3 Max players in 2006?

Factually wrong because

• OKC literally does have 3 max players right now.

• Both the Celtics and the Thunder had the same or better teams on paper the season after they won the title. Celtics just got straight up beaten, Thunder got injured. Neither has anything to do with the 2nd apron or retaining max players.

And Dolan says he won’t go into the second apron to extend KAT, he can trade picks for free, but he can’t put his money where his mouth is. Do you work for him or something? Am I still allowed in the garden?

Its just such a mess that players are having to choose between earning the value they deserve like Jokic, (or worse players on big deals, like Zach Lavine) or having a winning roster that has depth, like Brunson

Teams keep acquiring KAT. Achieving their greatest success in history. Then fucking off KAT for money reasons.

Lmao the Mavs didn’t even have a reason

KAT is payed double as much tbf, we would likely still have lost Naz.

I agree. Rudy was nearly useless on offense when Conley got washed. Sure we have Lamelo now but Rudy isn’t exactly young anymore to expect nonstop lobs.

15 years later im not complaining… oh wait fuck Nico

Same thing as a Raptor fan…you telling me a team from Canada where free agents don’t want to sign got a ring? I’ll take it, lol

Speaking from experience, the halo will wear off after year 3. It’s quicker than you think and you’re going to want another one

It was to be most surreal, remember where you were for every moment sort of thing I never thought I’d see.

I’ve never been more glad to be a Saints fan than when Atlanta went 28-3. On one hand, lmao Falcons, but on the other hand… ooffffff.

As a cowboys fan, I’m just glad someone suffers worse than me

It’s life changing tbh. As someone from the Boston area, it really sticks to you how much our local teams “winning” has influenced the culture around here. The winning culture is contagious. However, it also makes us the most insufferable fan base when it comes to regular expectations.

Imagine being damn near 40 and a diehard fan. We didn’t see anything until this Rose Era and the 1 ring gave me enough energy to endure another long drought. Low expectations made winning that much better

“Ermmm last I checked youre not on the team?” when people use colloquialisms to refer collectively to the experience of being a sports fan has to be the dorkiest genre of reddit comment

We’re really offering this guy Darius Garland money lol

Well damn if he don’t want those 45 million I guess I’ll take them

A Gen Z Boston sports fan born in 2001 saw 13 championships in his lifetime before graduating high school; 14 now including the 2024 Celtics ‘chip.

Meanwhile, someone the same age in Minneapolis has never seen any of this teams play for a championship in the series/title round, let alone win it. Hell, his older brother born nine years earlier is in the same title-drought predicament.

“what do you mean we won’t win next year??”

Good point lol

The Red Sox went 86 years without winning one. The Patriots were terrible forever. The Celtics were pretty uninspiring from the 90’s-mid 00’s. The Bruins didn’t win a cup for 40 years.

Yes the past 25 years have been great, but it wasn’t that long ago that Boston was seen as one of the most cursed sports cities.

That’s true. In Feb 2025 he was the guy available for cheap. I fault the August 2025 extension. Porter Jr was traded in July 2025 so they could have flipped Fox for Porter Jr with Fox going to Brooklyn.

They traded for Fox in February 2025 before winning the lottery. I believe the extension came after in August 2025. At the time Fox was on an expiring. If the Spurs were willing to face down Klutch they could have just flipped Fox in August 2025 instead of extending him. They had additional picks and swaps from the Kings and Hawks.

Fox is a small guard. It’s one of the worst contracts in the NBA. That money could have been Porter Jr instead.

I hear you on Fox, but describing his contract as an expiring 3 years from now doesn’t make 4 years left sound any better. He’s still a very good player, just overpaid. I’d imagine he’ll be traded in the next year or two if Harper really is that guy.

I’m for the anti tanking rules but I think it’s crazy you can hit on draft picks and not keep them long term . There’s got to be middle room between the Warriors getting KD and the Celtics having to move JB

Sure but I’m speaking generally not as an insufferable homer.

I think at times it’s a little too strong.

Parity was already there before this CBA tho. Now we are just witnessing great teams getting dismantled within a few years which honestly sucks.

Show me where the math is wrong

Being over the second apron for one or two years isnt a death sentence. The real issue is that the tax penalties are super high.

Loads of teams went into the 2nd apron for a year or two. Your picks don’t get frozen until year 3, you don’t need to aggregate salaries when you have KAT and Brunson on 60-70M AAV contracts to deal.

Dolan just doesn’t wanna pay 100+ million in repeater tax for every 20 million in salary over the threshold.

|Amount over tax threshold|Standard tax per excess dollar|Repeat offender tax per excess dollar|

|\(4,999,999 or less|\)1.50|$2.50|

|\(5 million to \)9,999,999|\(1.75|\)2.75|

|\(10 million to \)14,999,999|\(2.50|\)3.50|

|\(15 million to \)19,999,999|\(3.25|\)4.25|

|Over \(20 million|\)3.75 + \(0.50 per \)5 million|\(4.75 + \)0.50 per $5 million|

Definitely agree but it also feels a little bit different since Dolan has such a history of cheapness. But you guys would know better than I do on your own team so I digress

Been awhile since any repeated anyway

Aye focus on the west buddy. The way we played last year we would’ve beat ANYBODY.

And it wasn’t last year? You people were saying Pistons were title contenders because all you do is watch box scores and team standings then when they went to 7 vs THE MAGIC y’all changed course and pretend like the East sucked and the WCF was the finals while the Knicks put belt to ass to everyone in the east, and then when Knicks won the finals convincingly now you wanna act like they had an easy road and were stacked

Nah, not rage bait. Just not a popular opinion right this second. When we look back on this in 12-24 months, it’ll make sense then.

Also last year his defense took a huge step up. In Minny he looked good in his role playing off of Gobert, but he was pretty weak on the Knicks until last season. He deserves a bigger payday than his Minny contract.

they wouldn’t tho

Maybe that depends on the players? The 2008 Celtics team certainly won’t let people forget.

But the warriors happened due to KD being a bitch and steph having faulty ankles. Not just only due to a cap spike.

The spurs happened due to Duncan’s unselfishness, pop getting ahead of the curve, and a once in a generation shooting leap. Not due to cap management.

I’m also not one of the Knicks fans who forgets he was in foul trouble that entire series and played maybe 4 minutes that last game lol.

I don’t really see the argument for Brunson over KAT in the post season

In terms of advanced stats of the post season, KAT was ahead in literally every single one and in some cases it wasn’t close. PER: 24.4 vs 22.2, WS: 3.5 vs 3.0, WS/48: .293 vs 203, BPM: +9.4 vs +4.6, VORP: 1.7 vs 1.2. KAT finished the postseason +258, the highest plus minus for a single postseason in NBA history.

Defensively, KAT was excellent. He averaged 11 rebounds, 1.3 steals and 1.3 blocks per game. Jalen Brunson had to largely be hidden. KAT also had to deal with Wemby in the Finals. He had the best defensive rating of anyone in the post season.

New York ran offense through KAT at the elbow a lot to relax a lot of burden on Brunson. Per 100 possessions KAT and Brunson were tied in assists. I’d argue KAT was more valuable since he forced mismatches and bigs out of the paint.

Really the pro-Brunson argument just comes down to scoring but KAT scored at 68% efficiency to Brunson at 57% efficiency, so it’s not even a clean win as Towns is substantially more efficient. KAT’s superior playmaking, defence and rebounding. If we’re realistic Brunson is just considered the best player because he’s the highest ppg guy.

Brunson is a magician who makes any shot go in 5 minutes left in the game. No magicians like him in the league

That shit is still egregious

Pretty sure NBA contracts have far outpaced the housing market and inflation since the ‘90s. Even if they did invest in real estate a modern NBA contract would still be worth more.

i misread and in that case, I do think it’s quite fair. You could probably also work out a way to have the PO be part of the deal too. So you’d have it be like 61, 50, 46, 42, 38 as the deal

Every single non playoff team will throw the bag at KAT lol. No question.

I mean KAT and OG kind of makes up this team so they kind of both will be seeking to get paid but both are getting up in age and their defense will drop, that’s kind of their problem.

As a magic fan, I will not be satisfied until KAT gets his max contract, not a penny less.

Which is, ultimately, the rub: he’s not worth what he’s going to get paid. If you pay KAT, your team is garbage because it has this albatross off a contract. If you don’t pay KAT, you are a cheap owner who players don’t want to play for.

The ideal answer is “pay him his demands on a 1-2 year deal.” No player will take this: they want longer term security. But at least you don’t come across as cheap at that point.

…so your point is what? You think “so let him walk” is some kind of mic drop? If he won’t accept a fair number and your choice is between a bad contract that kills your team and the dreaded “letting him walk”, guess what the right choice is?

This isn’t 2k you dork. If they chose KAT over Brunson New York would riot and they should, your 2nd paragraph is delusional in every which way.

You gotta be trolling holy shit.

I respect the scorching hot temperature that the ‘Finals MVP Jalen Brunson feels like a vestigial arm DURING HIS FINALS MVP SEASON’ take occupies

That’s certainly a take. Not a good one, but a take nonetheless.

Honestly they should move Brunson to pay KAT if they have to.

🤡

wut

If they offer that and he values that more then I hope he enjoys SoCal

There is no way you can argue KAT is a top 10 player and I love KAT

It feels like you’re overrated him a tad bit. He was awesome but he’s not top 10, he’s not our best player, and he’s 31 years old. It just wouldn’t make sense to give him a full max. And yes Booker’s overpaid too

BOOKER’s making over $60MM/year.

How is that an argument in your favor in terms of winning basketball?

“Booker is getting overpaid (wow look how many games Phoenix is winning) so the Knicks should overpay KAT”

Stop talking about basketball, you’re bad at it.

If he can reproduce his playoff performance last year he’s easily worth $70 million.

Would you bet $70m that he can? He went a full decade of being doo doo in the playoffs before last season.

I love KAT but he averaged ¹³⁄₁₀ in the Finals, and ¹⁶⁄₁₁ in the playoffs overall. He was not the best player in the entire playoffs last year

Bruh Booker making 60 million doesn’t mean other teams should pay their players 60 million as well lol, look at how well that worked out for the suns

I mean isn’t the current hope basically:

Draft non lottery guys, extend them early, hope that their ³⁄₄ years are extremely high value relative to what you’re paying them, and then either let them walk or trade them?

I’m thinking guys like Julian Champagnie. He just signed a 45M/3. Great 3 pt shooter and plus defender, but otherwise limited offensive skillset and not as elite defensively as someone like OG Anunoby.

assuming the unbroken italics is because you’re citing the ancient scrolls?

Did you read my comment? I clearly mean poorly constructed in terms of cap management, not the talent on the team. IDK why you Knicks fans all have a chip on your shoulder. You won the title, relax. And I don’t hold that against their FO, they won the title so it’s all worth it regardless of long term cap stuff.

KAT was offered a deal that is reportedly less than his current deal. Maybe he takes a discount to stay in NY. Robinson is already gone, so you’re not running back the exact same team. Hart and McBride are still not locked up long term. There are some serious questions about keeping this team together. FWIW I hate the current system and wish the Knicks could bring back everyone so the spurs could get redemption next year lol.

Not to undermine Castle/Vassell but as long as they have Wemby + Harper I’d feel good about them as perennial contenders. Obv have to fill the gaps but those 2 are that good.

What issues will the Spurs face in 3 years?

This was a poetic take down haha. 😆 KAT would be a wolf still if no 2nd apron.

Being unable to take back even a dollar more than you’re sending out in a trade is the primary one that spooks teams.

Dolan being cheap, water is wet, Carbon has 4 bonds, life and death.

I’m with the Bill Walsh/Paul Brown train of thought here: better one year early, than one year late.

And even if not, there’s no reason to pay KAT *now* for his age ³²⁄₃₃ and onward seasons if its going to be the max price.

KD took \(45M. Wemby took 5 years starting at \)44M averaging \(50M. The Knicks are right to not go much over \)50M AAV if that.

The Knicks have also existed and played in the regular season for the past 25 years

The Knicks winning the title had a retrospective impact on the regular season ratings…?

big money for the guys who work the hotdog stand in the arenas and swiffer player sweat off the court

So I just need to visit the hospital for fun and have more kids to get teachers and nurses paid more?

Maybe we should stop blaming for consumers for the fact that value to society and market value just dont match, and maybe not every profession should be directly tied to market value.