Weight clause is because the mfer canNOT move. He’s strong, sure. Post him up and moving him is not an option, and i can guarantee you if he posts you up you’ll end up with something bad happening.

HOWEVER, his muscle mass and sheer weight density, makes him incredibly shite on the perimeter on the defensive end because of his lack of mobility. On the offensive end too, he can’t self create partially because of how immobile he is, and you can tell it’s limiting his options with the ball in his hand because he HAS some self-creating chops but his body is getting in the way.

If anything, his weight is the REASON he got done in by WCJ. WCJ just moved better than Duren because Duren is immobile.

I’m saying this as someone who is still much higher on Duren than the rest of the Pistons fanbase.

Hes too much muscle, thats the point. Hes lost some of his mobility.

The weight clause didnt mean they thought he was fat. They thought his cardio in the playoffs contributed to his poor play.

If I’m not wrong, it’s because he looked too bulky. Pistons coaching staff needed him to slim down to be more agile and regain his mobility on P&R defense, you can watch this broken down by Daniel Li on YouTube

If he puts on too much weight then he won’t be as mobile. I think that’s what they were worried about.

The weight clause felt weird, dude is one of the most visually in shape guys in the league

Don’t think he has to worry about getting outmuscled by Walter Clayton Jr.

If Ja Morant outmuscles Jalen Duren that’s a problem.

JA

Ja Morant?

Jiannis Antetekoumpo?

I must know.

Having too much musle makes cardio harder to sustain, maybe they want him to drop a bit because he gassed to quickly in the playoffs.

Last season was the first time he was ever really in shape, they even had this little video talking about how much he had to cut down on snacking last year to get properly fit. And, despite that + keeping his mpg under 30, his form still dropped over the course of the season and he was getting constantly out-hustled in the post-season. If the reason was that he was unfit then the weight clause makes sense, if the reason wasn’t fitness related then he just robbed Detroit lol

I watched Duren play so many games against Cleveland and at no point was I worried about his weight. I almost wonder if they put it in there to make him feel like he won something when they agreed tot take it out.

Did you see him naked? How do you know he’s all muscle?

A lot of things can change after a 22 year old signs $200m fully guaranteed contract… I bet the vast majority of us would turn into Zion or LaMelo.

Becoming heavier can also negatively impact a player. Just look at Emeka Okafor. I asked google this neutral question: “how did emeka okafor bulking up after his rookie season impact his sophomore season?” And google summarized the web results as:

During the 2005 offseason, Emeka Okafor intentionally bulked up, increasing his weight from 260 pounds to 280 pounds. However, instead of helping him dominate the paint, this extra weight severely and negatively impacted his sophomore (2005–06) season with the Charlotte Bobcats:

• Slowed Injury Recovery: Okafor suffered a right ankle injury early in the season. He later noted that the added 20 pounds put significantly more stress on his joints, making the ankle exceptionally slow to heal and severely hindering his rehabilitation.

• Limited Games Played: Because the ankle injury wouldn’t heal properly under the extra weight, Okafor was forced to sit out the majority of the season. On March 15, 2006, the Bobcats shut him down completely, limiting him to just 26 games played for the entire year.

• Decreased Efficiency: While he still effectively averaged a double-double when he was on the court (13.2 points and 10.0 rebounds), his offensive efficiency took a noticeable hit. His field-goal percentage dropped dramatically from 44.7% in his rookie year to 41.5% during his sophomore campaign.

Recognizing that the extra weight was doing more harm than good, Okafor worked out with NBA legend Hakeem Olajuwon the following offseason and shed the 20 pounds. He reported that losing the weight immediately restored his energy and mobility , allowing him to bounce back for a highly successful third season.

its not about being fat, its about agility and lowering injury risk. Plus the extra muscle is worse than fat in ways since it requires more oxygen and tires you out more, which is a huge issue given how much time starters are expected to play in the playoffs

Duren is starting to develop knee problems already. The weight is putting him at risk

Wendell Carter Jr & Jarrett Allen do not merit acronyms

I cant help but think of a behind the scenes video of the pistons facility, and they were interviewing one of the chefs and he had all these grapes laid out for the players to grab. He mentioned specifically they had to get Jalen to stop eating candy and got him to switch to grapes. Its almost nothing on its own, but if its a smaller piece of a larger puzzle that they saw behind the scenes, then maybe Trajon saw something we all didnt get to see

Yeah that was really weird to me, dude is in incredible shape

Never go full RFA.

No, it’s the opposite. He’s so bulked up that the general thinking is it’s slowing him down. I think they want to ensure he stays a bit leaner to maintain some speed and mobility.

No he was so muscular in impeding his movement and made him ass. Source: multiple pistons fans.

And he can eat 3 buffets a day now!

He’s talking about taking the QO

Worst contract this year!

He did play like Ayton vs the Cavs. Lmao.

I don’t agree. Ayton is a waste of space who doesn’t give a shit.

From what I saw, Duren does care and tries. But he’s very limited and got erased in the playoffs cause teams took the time to scheme for him defensively. He had no idea how to adjust. Hopefully for Detroit, he’ll figure it out. Cause if not this contract is gonna suck come playoff time.

yes

He’s better than Ayton surely

not sure i get the point of this. reply was up for 2 hours then ‘redacted’? why bother?

Yes begrudgingly because he thinks he deserves the full max and feels underpaid. Not that hard to follow.

Begrudgingly in Duren’s eyes, yes. He said he felt insulted and disrespected by anything not over 200 million, but is now accepting it, so yeah, begrudgingly.

Goofy

You’re bringing forward baggage from a previous understanding of the cap that this contract is huge.

He was eligible for a 30% of the cap max contract, which pretty much every player ever who made All-NBA signed for.

This contract is 24% of the cap, 6% lower than he was eligible for.

Every team in history would do this deal with their own homegrown draftee who made All-Star and All-NBA in their breakout season.

Don’t let the numbers confuse things - percentages allow you to make much more reasonable comparisons to previous eras. This contract is not crazy.

Begrudgingly takes a massive overpay? Not sure I follow.

What overpay? This is the lowest contract (as a percentage of the cap) ever, for a player who makes All-NBA on his rookie deal.

He’s not that over paid

There were talks of clauses in the last few days like a weight clause so the fact this is “fully guaranteed” makes it seem like he got those removed

Valuations ebb and flow

Neither Duren nor Ausar are assets without huge improvements on their new deals. But at least these contracts can be packaged with picks if a star wants out and demands Detroit specifically to play with Cade

Not even a Pistons fan but why the fuck would you like want to pay a guy $200 million who repeatedly shat his pants over 14 playoff games, dragged his own teammates names through the mud, and spent the last 3 months effectively telling the org that he doesn’t want to be there and only signed the check at the last second. He’s a stain on the organization and they should send his ass somewhere else the moment a decent offer comes through

Because he shit the bed in the postseason so bad he basically eliminated us and then spends all off-season having his agent publicly bitch and moan about getting a $200M contract.

He is not a winning player. He does not have the skill set in the areas that are important to be worth anywhere near $40M a year. He is a horrible fit with Ausar

Has weight been a problem for Duren? Detroit FO was dumb for that. Just being disrespectful for no reason lol

Yeah I’m sure he held out these last 10 days over a weight clause

The problem isn’t his on the court play, he can still grow. They got to 60 wins and to game seven of the second round of the playoffs with him. The problem is the attitude. I think he’s genuinely hurt by media and fan reaction his playoff performance.

That leaves him as a complete question mark to me. He could be great, he could break completely.

He’s also 22

He’s overpaid but he’s getting that Walker Kessler money and at least he plays

Are you saying you think he’s never played well in a playoff game?

In fairness he was playing against two bigs. Our 4 was Tobias Harris. And Ausar would just camp at the 3 point line and let his defender go down to rebound. If Ausar had rebounded or cut more they would have gone farther

He’s 22 years old. And it’s not a max- this is a solid contract for the pistons. Even if he never improves in the playoffs over the course of this deal it will always be a trade-able asset. I’m not sure what else you’re supposed to do as the pistons. Worst case scenario is letting talent leave for nothing. This way they get to retain talent while also having an exit path that will allow you to get assets back should it not work out fully.

I don’t really get this. This was basically Duren’s first important playoffs. I’m sure a young player not being phenomenal their first couple of playoffs isn’t rare. It has to be more about what they see from him in conjunction with the poor handful of playoff games. Like, James Harden is infamous for not being able to deliver in the playoffs and it never stopped him from getting paid.

Fans are wrong about everything most of the time, and they never ever learn from it

He usually kills it in the regular season. Hes an All NBA all star center. Perfect chemistry with Cade and has some creation ability. And had interest from 5 other teams this offseason.

They definitely can get some value now that he’s signed and the back half of the contract should be pretty fine value by then.

I agree his fit with Ausar sucks and I’m picking Ausar over him anyway

Ishbia would never get rid of one of his MSU boys but Bridges for Duren straight up who says no?

(Everyone with a brain)

the problem is whether he choked or that’s just who he is. a lot of his regular season scoring and performance in general was out hustling the other team and getting easy looks from cade. in the playoffs it’s wayyy harder to out hustle teams and the easiest looks mostly disappear.

so is he an all star talent who really just shrunk that bad? or is he a mediocre talent who feasts on lazy regular season defense? that’s the question.

Centers need to block shots and he’s way below average at that

The things centres need to do but he doesn’t…

He receives lobs.

From Cade and when he was out it was others doing it.

First game clicked on when double checking the accuracy of this was Daniss fucking Jenkins of all people having 10 assists in a game as Cades absence made Duren the primary scorer, plays were thereby designed around him, and it bolstered his performance that his defenders now spam how improved when Cade was out as if wasn’t cause people who are likely to be screwed by this contract were giving up their game for his sake and only he got credit.

That’s not a movable contract for someone like Duren. 16 & 9 with average defense doesn’t sound exciting for that price point. It’s probably gonna be the same value as the recent Porzingis trades.

At the ultimate worst, you unload the contract in two years by leaving him unprotected for the expansion draft.

But I highly doubt it ever gets to that point. I assume they can find a trade and some assets well before that, if things don’t work out.

He’s worth it more than Ausar. That contract is atrocious

Why do basketball fans act like a 22 year old can’t improve?

No one’s giving up firsts to pay a center 40m to average 16 & 9 unless he’s an elite defender, and Duren isn’t even a good defender.

Good for regular season. Not good for when teams scheme against 2 non shooters in ausar and Duren in the playoffs

1st round exit if Franz doesnt get injured

Tobias was a huge reason you guys were successful in the playoffs, you lost him and replaced him with nothing. When the game slows down, I’m not sure outside of Cade who you guys can count on

Clamped by wendell carter with ex-gf buff though

He was borderline unplayable in the playoffs.

In a year where more than half the teams were picking guys off the streets to start. The Pistons fans and Celtics fans are in for a rude awakening about the true talent level on their teams this year when majority of the league will be competing. They are not true 56 and 60 win teams.

/u/Look_at_my_knees I saw your comment pew-c bch

When you have a franchise star like Cade Cunningham you sometimes need to overpay some of the other guys so he won’t flirt around. I am not excusing them or saying they are right at all, I am only explaining what kind of mindset they might’ve been in so why they made the horrible signing they have done. They at least kept their picks!

Was it worth the bad will tho?

For Duren? Yes.

For the Pistons? No, not if they were ultimately going to offer this.

What ill will? The redditors went spiraling. I’m sure the negotiations weren’t half as crazy as was presented to us for clicks.

Bro could’ve got the max. Pistons went well under, Duren felt he deserved more than that, and that’s where they met.

He is absolutely not the 8th best center LMAO

Nah no world he’s the 8th best center bc he can catch lobs from Cade. He’s not a good defender

Wemby, Jokic, Towns, Bam, Sengun, Gobert, Allen, Zubac is 8 indisuputably better

then you have AD & Embiid, both clearly better despite health concerns

then you have Turner, Okongwu, Kessler, Sabonis all arguably better (Sabonis hard to argue since Pistons straight up chose Duren over him, but still even without him here, Duren is like top-15 at best)

\(40mil a year for a top-15 center is crazy, as it stands he'll have to improve quite a bit for this to be a reasonable value contract. Best case this is risky but he grows into it, worst case you're paying \)40mil for a very average big man

That’s definitely the preferable situation. Never want to see a promising player get hurt or a up and coming team fall apart due to wasted cap space.

Ausar rarely plays shooting guard

Thats why athletes go broke post retirement

He can get it like 3-4 times max.

The Dwight Howard Special

an aside, I ate at 5 guys and spent almost 30 dollars on a burger, fries and a drink.

I should have just gone to a damn restaurant.

Which is stupid as fuck honestly, he’s a 22 year old center. Even if he sucked in the playoffs he can improve and use his natural size and athleticism. Putting a weight clause and making him adapt to an entirely different playstyle with a smaller body instead of simply improving on what he already does was stupid as fuck. His team was right to get that shit removed.

they’re

He settled for a lower deal than what he was asking for (which is closer to what the Pistons initially offered). And this contract was on the table for weeks, mind you. So how is that not folding?

Who?

Yes. But he didn’t take it. That was the (my) point all along. He was threatening to take it to get this. People were acting like he took it.

Most redditors in general just love to bootlick management.

you can also see this by how much praise players take for taking a pay cut for their team. the NBA PA expressly discourages this because it sets a precedent which could potentially depress star contracts around the league

Getting paid what they are worth based on how well they play. Duren got paid because he held the Pistons hostage. I mean props to him and his agent but I don’t think there are Piston fans cheering for this based on the contract given to him.

No problem with this dude getting paid. It’s the shit ass system they all have to work in that make these kind of deals team ruining.

It’s not that they’re anti-player, it’s that they know this signing could fuck their flexibility to build a decent team down the road.

yeah because the new cap environment makes it very tough for players to get paid. You can’t field a team with two players making max money the way you used to. I do wonder how it would look if we just had no tax, and the second apron was a true hard cap as well as having no max salary.

Because the cap space . If he genuinely wanted the 287 million the team would be in trouble long term

Facts!!!!

No, we just know there is a salary cap

it’s a rubberband. we just went through 15 years of superteams and a player posting on social media and then 3 teams bending over backwards to please them for no apparent reason.

I think a lot of people are just traumatized by their team being weighed down by a bad contract, it’s an increasingly prevalent thing

I am all for getting players paid. But this isn’t a Saudi league with infinite money available due to how the salary cap works. If you have playoff chokers getting paid superstar level money, you are not going far

Why are him and his agent dumb? They just played this perfectly, got him a fat contract and he can be at whatever weight he wants

Sure, but they’re pretty different players with different expectations. Unlike Duren, KAT was on a full rookie max and expected to be a #1 scoring option. He couldn’t do it. Duren is a dependent player and he is just expected to carry over his All-NBA-caliber regular season performance, which is mainly his rebounding and super-efficient finishing. If he adds a post game or jump shot, that’s a massive bonus.

True they’re not the same caliber of talent, but Duren isn’t getting max KAT money either

The point they’re making is just that it takes some guys a few runs to get it flowing

It wasn’t his first playoffs and I don’t think he’s worth 40m at all, however I agree that it’s better than trading for Sabonis

Him acting like a brat instead of a teammate?

what about 2 bad playoff series then?

I mean he has made it so far by just being stronger than everybody, but if you ain’t Shaq or Giannis, that archetype does not work in modern game. I know he did way in the regular season without Cade, but in the Playoffs, that is just too easy to gameplan against.

Like any other big… he needs a go to move and a deadly middy, and he needs that sooner rather than later.

it wasn’t a bad series, it was 2 horrendous series

Did bro even watch the playoffs. It was two bad series, and B Ball paul was the best center at points. He was worse than game 7 Chet. That was his normal. Now, I don’t think the contract was bad, since he’s improved a lot, but it was bad this year.

they see 200 mil of upside

they are paying

lets see what happens

It’s the actual opposite

I’ve never seen his prototype be successful in the playoffs. If your offense has no counter moves besides play finishing and bully ball, and if you’re defense around the rim and on the perimeter is lacking in the playoffs, this is the opposite of what you want for playoff basketball

he usually finds value in playoffs execpt that one (1) singular time he played in playoffs he was absolute dogshit. Valid reasoning.

[removed]

This argument might work better if he was playing against the Nikola Jokic’s or Victor Wembanyama’s of the game. Except he was played off the court by Wendell Carter Jr. Wendell straight up bitched Duren. The only reasons the Pistons still won that series was because Cade outplayed Paolo and Franz had another injury.

Yeah, but even with cade he was still played off the floor in the playoffs

He was half the player he is this year that he was last year.

Yeah crazy how we drafted Cade, Ausar and Duren in 2011. Some of you are just beyond help.

What he got is different from what he was trying to hold out for

There is no universe where an All NBA center should get bitched by Wendell Carter Jr.

All NBA usually means you are top 15 in the league. Although this one was more like “Pistons won a lot of games and we didnt expect that so might as well give them 2 spots”

And paying people purely for potential never goes wrong right?

2021 playoffs were a better performance from Ayton than Duren has ever had

finals ayton was actually a good young center worth his rookie contract

Ayton actually contributed hugely in a finals run. If Detroit had finals run Ayton last season, they would have beaten the cavs

Duren’s best season was slightly better than Ayton’s best season

Ayton’s best postseason was lights out, no comparison better than Duren’s best postseason.

The one big difference is that there’s hope Duren will improve, with Ayton, teams are more resigned that he is who he seems to be.

Ayton had actually been of use in the playoffs though which is the only reason it took this long for duren and the pistons to come to an agreement

He’s a 22 year old who just got All-NBA lol.

Now is it possible he never gets an All-NBA season again? Maybe, but the slander he’s gotten this offseason has been a bit much.

He’s also like barely 23. Tons of young players have a shit playoff outings and end up being completely fine players. I think it’s a completely fair offer for both sides. If he is a consistent starter for the duration of that deal it’s gonna age well.

Evan Mobley put up 9 his first playoff run and got an even bigger bag than Duren did after that

So only two years of playoff samples means someone this young can’t become better?

Can’t judge guys off a small sample size the greatest players of all time have bad playoff series. If a player is a good regular season player they will more often than not also be a good playoff player unless their playstyle sucks historically in the playoffs (Sabonis, inefficient bench guards, spot up shooters)

It’s insane man

i didn’t watch the pistons much last year and i’m legitimately curious: what is his skillset and what is the better version of his current self that you imagine him growing into?

some people have said that he got most of his points off hustling and cade feeding him easy looks last year, and that’s why his scoring dried up in the playoffs. i assume, from your comment, you would disagree. so i’m curious to try to expand my understanding. what are the aspects of his game you think most people are missing that would give him a ceiling as a consistent all star and not just an athletic roleplayer?

Most people dont watch games and rely on clickbait titles and parroting arguments they heard

i mean the obvious problem with that big 3 is ausar being a complete liability on offense, not duren.

Looks a bit like a younger version of the Cavs. Probably will win 50 games every year but no chance to seriously compete for a chip.

Some of it can also be addressed if teh pistons had better constructed their roster. Theyr’e gonna be relying a lot on quality bench-caliber guys to ease the shooting concerns when they really need more in the starting lineup. But the lack of spacing kills duren inside.

76ers fan first Minny fan second lmao. Just changed my flair because this sub won’t let you have two and when I had my Sixers flare the amount of hate I dealt with when commenting was unreal.

1. We should example the agent by the results. He got what he wanted so he’s a good agent with a pulse on player value.

2. We shouldn’t point out that this agent got punked previously with another player and fucked up their contract. For… reasons.

he was never *not* signing. he was bluffing, no one passes up on \(200m in the hand. Maybe on \)50m or \(80m, not \)200m

There was near zero chance that would be the outcome. Duren has said in the past he wants to stay in Detroit long term and Cade is his bff. People took agent drama wayyyyyy too literally. Still, his agent can kick rocks for the hatchet job he did on his clients image