Yeah. That’s fine, these are the rules. It’s up to KAT if he wants to play for the Kings or something on a max or stay in New York on a bit less. The public and even the players/agents haven’t realized that every good player isn’t a max player anymore. They can’t be with these rules. There’s not enough cap space in the league to pay 3 guys a max contract on a single team and still fill the team out well enough to win a championship. Guys like KAT and others who are 2nd best on a championship level team need to accept a bit below a max now if they want to win. There will be teams desperate for talent that will give them that max, but like I said, it will be a team like the Kings that can’t compete.

I wouldn’t call them “duds” but he was having struggles in the Hawks series by his standards and once they started running the offense through KAT more the team took off.

I still remember how electric his first game was. Now I’m just sad for New Orleans fans

Damn we getting old

I spent over 30 years in NBA if we include the seasons I didn’t play.

Take me out to dinner first dang

Fair point- he played 75 games last year though so he has shown he’s capable of being durable

Kawhi was fine, the Clippers were fucked.

They’re not overpaid, they literally make that much money for the league

Like athletes are probably overpaid

I agree with you except this. Athletes are not overpaid because they are paid based on the money they generated for the sports, not based on their contribution to society. One might argue raising ticket prices and all that. But does anyone really think owners wouldn’t raise prices if athletes are paid less? Does anyone really have that faith in the owners?

Yes, this is why I keep sayong that him and his wife are marketable and genuinely nice people.

Even if he were to take less money to put his team in a better position to win again, hes gonna be just fine financially for the rest of his life.

I’m currently interviewing and always have the conversation that my desired base salary is X, but I have turned down a few jobs at that price point because the fit wasn’t right. However, for the perfect job, I’ve got no problem losing $30k a year for happiness 8 hours a day, most days a week.

The Knicks are being unreasonable and they know it. They are trying to lowball him into signing a deal knowing that he wants to stay in NYC coming fresh off a championship.

KAT isn’t even asking for the max. He’s willing to leave money on the table and he could deffo get the max from some play-in/1st round exit team if he chased the bag. The Knicks are asking him to leave 76 million on the table for what is probably his last big contract. They are asking KAT to leave 19 million on the table per year. Kuminga and Donte make 18.5 combined over next season.

Usually the player leaves 20 million on the table over 5 year helping the team sign a bench player like Mcbridge or Alvardo. KAT would be leaving Josh Hart money on the table with this deal. He’s earning 57 million this year and has a 61 million player option next year. I assume the final agreement will be close to 250 million. Maybe 240.

It’s less about being paid what your worth and cementing your legacy. Personally I’d take a pay cut 🤷🏾‍♂️

Very easy if im making 50 million dollars a year

Im not sure i would. Duren is 23 and you are probably getting the best years of his career while KAT is 30. KAT was also notoriously a disaster in the playoffs when he was young as well.

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Only Vlad didn’t really give them anything in the end

I’ve been overreacting to that series win all summer and I’m never gonna stop overreacting to it. Actually, maybe I need to react even more. That’s it, time for a full series rewatch.

The finals is literally the most important series win ever. What other barometer is there?

I mean… the Knicks had the upper hand over the Spurs all season

I don’t disagree but I also think it’s easy to overreact to a series win.

Are we getting trolled right now? It’s not exactly an overreaction when the series was the Championship series.

I think he can age like Dirk, and Dirk averaged over 30 min/game until he was 37. That’d be around the same time that his contract ends if we signed him now. I don’t think his game will age that badly either. Definitely less athletic but he’s known for his amazing shooting.

I disagree with this. KAT’s game is going to age gracefully. Im not even close to being a Knicks fan, but this man deserves his flowers.

agreed, just didn’t want people to think KAT and duren were offered the same amount. that would amount to a $116M discount by KAT lol

You can argue the best too. His defense and facilitator role was what unlocked the Knicks run. Before he moved into a point center role the Knicks fandom were clammoring for Mike Brown’s firing after going down 2 games vs the Hawks.

KAT at 23 couldnt get through a playoff game without fouling out. I think hes much better than Duren but i think its important to keep that in mind

KAT is better than Duren right now, but I think it’s too shortsighted to say that Duren couldn’t ever reach that level of impact

People thought KAT would never have a serious role on a contender when he was fouling out on the Wolves but here we are

OG was definitely the second best but really it was a team effort after Brunson. Kat was incredible in game 1 of the finals, pretty good in game 2, and then was pretty much a no factor the rest of the way. They cut his minutes and really went smaller after the loss. I

mean Kat went 1-7 for 2 points and fouled out of that closing game but nobody remembers or cares because they won. Duren would’ve been ritually sacrificed for that line.

Oh I see i misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying

As a penalty, the Knicks must now offer 4 years 80M for tree planting

literally was top comment too 😭 no shame

If they pay Towns that contract they won’t be able to maintain their depth and will also close their window early

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Or close your window early by getting strangled by the 2nd apron hard cap. Cutting off the ability to make moves will also close a window.

WHO would be so crazy to give KAT more than that?

This roster has 2 or 3 years max either way, the core is hitting their 30s. Plus this is the whole reason the Wolves traded him.

I doubt they let him walk. It’s just negotiating. At least it seems he’s willing to come down some. It’ll go back and forth for a while and probably land at ⁴⁄₂₅₀

Exactly. If you’re coming off a championship run, you keep it going until the brakes fall off.

Or max out your player and close your window early. Knicks have a lot of players to extend.

Na i think this attitude is just a remnant of the idea of giving every all star level guy a max deal. At the end of the day it was never really justifiable to spend 30% of your cap on a guy like KAT, who while a good player, probably isnt a top ten walking playoff berth type guy.

The teams with more depth and pieces are the ones actually winning. These players all have a theoretical market value, and the new CBA actually gets players much closer to their realistic contributions to a team.

These poor players having to settle for 200m instead of 250m

Yep, it’s impressive how much players gave up so they could smoke weed and promote gambling.

Its impossible to build a dynasty with the current CBA.

And $50m would put him at the 25th highest paid player next season which feels about right, frankly.

Even if he isn’t the best player on the team, I’d argue that what KAT brings to a team is unique enough that he’s more valuable than players who are better than him. Like he is an actual nightmare matchup against any team that relies in a really good rim protector for their defense (like the Spurs).

Now that there is a hard cap the max contract is there for the best players in the league and your value as a 2nd tier player is objectively less than the max. Thats just how a “hard” cap like the 2nd apron is gonna operate. The players association agreed to this and unfortunately now contracts are going to shrink for everyone but the top 15ish guys. Teams can’t afford to max a new guy every other year like they used to.

Edit: u/ohmka said it better. The 2nd tier contracts are gonna come down but the 3rd and 4th tier contracts are gonna come up. The only people who are gonna lose money are the 2nd best players on teams now.

The players union really fucked this one up

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yes and no. Dolan could pay it and it wouldn’t hurt him at all. it’s greed over the city with this guy, always.

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100% the correct take.

Players and their agents clearly have not properly re-calibrated for the new hard cap

Or at least, not the 35% max.

I think the top 10-15 guys should get the max. A guy like cade is 100% worth the max even if he’s not on a level with Wemby jokic and Luka.

It’s okay they don’t understated paying stars after a chip… because… you know

His relative speed for his size is also why he’s able to be so successful on those drives. Once his first step slows down a bit, things will get a lot more difficult for him.

The Knicks are probably going to have an internal model or projection that says Brunson has basically no chance of playing up to a \(70 million salary (or more) for the 2029-32 seasons. They are going to ignore this model and give him \)70 million anyway because they quite literally do not have another option due to how beloved he is. There would be Nico Harrison levels of fan hatred if Brunson is not a Knick for the next 6+ years. KAT is a fan favorite but not remotely close to the extent that Brunson is.

Plus, Brunson already took a “pay cut” so you cannot ask him to take another.

Brunson’s game have never been reliant on athleticism. But I would think a 35 year old Brunson would be more impactful than a 35 year old Karl.

The issue is more his rim protection. If his rim defence slips to below where it was 2 years ago then he’s simply not worth more than the 25% max.

Basically if he’s a 4 instead of a 5.

All true but he wasn’t our 1A on either offense or defense so not sure if paying him 70M is worth it

Terrible logic. There are role players who have made 2 to 10 million before but were the difference makers in series. You think they deserved 50mil+? No

then offer him 2 years…..

I mean, if they give him that deal they lose someone else for the difference so it matters immediately to that same championship window. You can’t win with just 2 players

76ers are able to pay Embiid, Brown, and Maxey

The portion of the pie is mostly fixed between owners and players.

Thats really not how the math ends up working out at all. Despite what the people on this sub think, this CBA is excellent for players outside of guys who were max guys previously that didnt deserve it.

The players got more of the pie as part of the last CBA discussion….

Wow sounds like they should’ve fought about it during CBA negotiations

The part of the pie the owners get is pre-determined. It was negotiated with the CBA. Going over the tax to get Kat does 2 things.

• Dolan pays the tax to the other owners

• All other players salaries are adjusted down slightly to make room for Kat’s salary.

The tax was specifically made to prevent the richest owners from having a significant competitive advantage. It does not impact what the players as a whole receive, which is capped at 51% of basketball related revenue.

Has nothing to do with ownership and everything to do with operating a team under the current cap restrictions and second apron penalties.

If it were about owners being able to afford things, Balmer would just have the top 3 players at every position.

As everyone has been saying, its about remaining roster flexibility under the current cba. If the 2nd apron wasnt an issue than yeah, go all in who cares. Affordability isnt the problem, nit sure why the casual fan is still struggling with this.

It has nothing to do with the ownership being cheap, this is because they won’t be able to keep their core together if they give KAT that much.

Can and should are different things. Almost 70 million for 1 player is absolutely moronic.

Honestly can’t believe people keep saying this.

It’s not about the money, it’s about the apron.

It’s not about the money, it’s about the apron!

The 2nd apron exists

The 2nd apron is that bad which is why they have been squeezing pennies to make these contracts happen thanks to it

Hart is going need his money, deuce gonna need his money, and 1 year later OG and Brunson are due as well. Not to mention the bench still needs to be addressed.

There is a salary cap. You can’t pay everyone what they deserve on championship teams. It’s literally like that by design

Is that true though? If one other team is willing to offer him \(60M, 3 teams are willing to offer \)55M, but most teams would cap how much they’re willing to pay him at \(50M, I'd argue \)50M isn’t an underpay. The others would just be overpays. And I have no problem with him taking more money if he can get it, but that doesn’t mean $50M is an underpay.

THEY TRADED FOR HIM

From a GM perspective, I understand that. But at the same time, from a player perspective, KAT was the 2nd most important player for the Knicks during their run and was an essential piece in finally getting them ring after a 50 year drought, so I understand him wanting to be rewarded for that. Like I get the Pistons not wanting to blow too much on Duren after his playoff performance, but KAT has way more demand and has earned the right to ask for the salary that he wants

saying that it is working as intended doesn’t mean they like it

Because the 2nd apron is working as intended

What’s fair mean here?

welcome to 2nd apron

Did they once say the word “fair”

It’s not about petty team rivalries. All of the owners are on the same side. The 2nd apron penalties place the interests of the fans directly against the interests of the players. Public support during CBA negotiations or any negotiation is a big source of leverage that is now removed from the equation.

Its exceedingly fair, which fucking sucks for our markets 🤣 (celts fan)

That is a false argument. George and Brown make the same salary. It was not for the 2nd apron lmao.

Yes, those dollars eventually get dispersed, but the owners deliberately designed and used this as a shield to avoid giving out max or supermax contracts to guys like KAT, as well as to avoid the larger tax penalties that the more competitive teams were paying.

Yea the only teams who went hard into the repeater tax were the Warriors, Clippers and Suns.

I just don’t agree man. Dolan was one of the owners that would foolishly spend on nonsense players to win 30 games a year. All of a sudden the team is this good and you think he decided he’s good? I think you’re just angry at the situation but realistically there’s no way to keep it all together that benefits the team because of the implications of the 2nd apron. I understand why you’re upset though.

Idk why people don’t get his. People here really are on the side of Knicks being able to pay their core 4 and still being able to keep all their depth with no penalties even if they’re cap sheet is $100+ million more than everyone else’s. It’s ridiculous.

You can’t really replace elite role players. It’s like saying Boston can replace Derrick White or the Warriors can replace Draymond

I don’t think you can replace either player respectfully. Vets that are versatile and have a lot of wrinkles to their game. Really just depends of what direction the Knicks want to go. But they’re both equally valuable to me

As someone who has watched every game both OG and KAT has played for this team, OG is far more important. It’s not a slight at KAT but OG is actually insane.

As a knicks fan whose watched every game since OG came to us, I don’t think you can replace OG. Hes one of a kind. We are mega ass defensively without him then offensively he provides so much when he’s on.

The spurs gameplan was not to stop towns at all costs lmao

Towns didn’t even play any differently against them than he did the rest of the playoffs

Kat switched up his playstyle and was a massive part of the Knicks running so hot.

They looked like shit the first two games and then boom Kat starts facilitating more and everything opens up. He was definitely the second most important player even tho everyone stepped up

Like I said…both players it cannot just REPLACE was my point. I don’t think maxing either of them is a smart decision in terms of keeping the team together. They are both invaluable. I don’t think one is more valuable than the other.

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people keep saying this as if it’s either the owner who gets to keep the money or KAT. If KAT forces too big of a contract, it means the rest of the roster suffers. It sucks that billionaires own teams and have created the system that benefits them, but that’s the reality. Every player on the team should take a slight pay cut to benefit the whole roster, if they’re serious about winning.

who are you talking to? Who is y’all?

Nobody else has any cap space either

Thats the circlejerk opinion but in reality, the non max guys are making more money than they would previously, since every team doesnt have their two best players on max contracts.

The deal is good for players outside of the tier of guys like Zach Lavine, Jamaal Murray, Brandon Miller etc who all get maxed under the old system.

The NBA instituted basically a hard cap with the second apron. So you have the regular cap, the first apron, the second apron. With these aprons they’ve also made it harder for free agents to be able to be signed unless you are below the tax aprons AND have cap space.

In the NBA most teams are already operating at near 90-100% of the cap already. So there’s just not large amounts of cap space around the league. It’s killed role player salaries, and a guy like Anfarnee Simons had to sign for ²⁄₁₂ mil. Role players basically are never going to get more than the MLE ever again.

And for big free agents it’s even harder because you need to clear the cap. So for KAT to get what he wants, he’d need a team to basically dump 50-70 million in salary, get below the cap, and open up enough salary to give him the contract he wants, and it would have to be a team he wants to play for.

Take Randle for example, yes he’s a bit flawed but quite literally his only option this summer was to sign with the Nets because they had cap space and he was only able to get ³⁄₁₀₀.

He could absolutely get back to back rings and he has way more endorsement value in a large media market. Hes not going to the lakers. He should stay put.

And the Knicks are unique because they have 1 superstar and then like a slew of players who could be alll-star level any given night. 2-8 it’s a loaded roster. It means it’s going to be really fucking hard if not impossible to pay everyone.

Not all those players are at the same age and value though so there’s no true comparison to make. It’s simply market value. I don’t personally think \(45M is right, but low-mid 50s is absolutely reasonable imo. If they settle at 4 for \)220M both sides should be thrilled.

I agree, though it’s also tough to gauge these contracts when the cap is always changing. It’d be easier if they’d present these offers as a percentage as well.

Easier to stomach a discount.

Without his contract, the knicks are currently at 97.9%

A max is 30%, their offer is 27.54% which keeps them under the 2A. Makes it easier to swallow, but in dollars he’s seeing that he’d be losing out on 19m/yr not so easy to swallow.

Agents love to cite the worst contracts in the league as market value

How’s that? Anything other than the second apron?

But what’s the alternative? Letting KAT walk & potentially losing a SHIT TON of goodwill the team has made?

The east is still wide open for the Knicks. I get history isn’t on their side but their chemistry &

lack of injury history is a huge advantage in east where most contenders have made big changes/relying on older stars.

As a Bucks fan 1 was pretty incredible with the team around Giannis. Moment they traded Jrue with Middleton mired in injuries I knew the window was closed. But definitely expected Denver to get another, just no reason for their super rich owner to not go all in and make aggressive moves at least the Bucks tried.

Everyone knew their window was last year, it was being openly spoken on this sub even. Now they’ve won one and all of a sudden we are supposed to look at them like they have as good as shot as anyone to win next year. Did people forget how that series went

The point was the Knicks aren’t that much better than their competition to lock in the same roster for the foreseeable future.

I mean do you want parity or not? The nfl runs into that all the time.

Majority of players want a pseudo cap. It spreads out the money to the non-stars. If there wasn’t, market price of elite players would absorb all the money.

Yea the owners pulled one over on the players. The more time goes by the more it’s obvious the aprons were created to make it so the owners could keep overall team salaries down to keep their expenses down having an excuse to spend less.

They’ve ended the concept of paying all NBA 2nd and 3rd team guys and fringe all stars like All NBA 1st team guys. Which isnt horrible but it’s also killing the middle class of nba salaries. In a few years we’ll be at a point where every team has two maxes and then no one else making over 10mil.

The league is much worse off and the players are much worse off but hey, the nbapa signed off on this poison pill so what can ya do?

idk man i’m loving the parity and idgaf if these poor basketball players only get 40 million a year instead of 50 million a year.

And people love this “parity era”. We have to mold some financial stipulations to make teams not able to keep players, to make this parity era happen

Ok, we can cry about it all day but that doesn’t change the rules

Just proved my point lol

That’s not what the second apron does. It’s not just a money issue

Live action role playing basketball is playing basketball.

If your goal were absolute parity, then the current system has evidently worked pretty well because you basically force all good teams to break up when their players demonstrate their value by winning.

But I think a lot of discussions here and elsewhere have also shown that fans don’t want to see teams implode when those teams draft or develop well. People hate teams being able to load up and win, but people mind it less when it’s not just a rich owner buying up the best players from all over without a care.

So I personally think a cap discount makes sense as a middle point. If you drafted and/or developed a player well, you should be able to pay them top dollar while not having it torpedo your team’s chances to compete. The current system just forces players to leave more often and get nickel and dimed by owners because players are now somehow made responsible for cap management.

Even before the latest CBA, single teams were not getting all of the highest-paid/best players. KD Dubs were an anomaly to be able to fit him and Steph, but even then, Klay was the only other guy being paid 15m+ when they completed that roster.

The point of a cap discount would be to reward teams who drafted and/or developed said player. You can also make it so cap discounts can apply only to let’s say one or two players so it isn’t used to effectively get around the cap.

The league is more profitable than ever, and your solution is to reduce player pay? Come on now

But if 1 owner pays a lot in luxury tax, it just goes to the other owners who are under the 1st apron, it doesnt go to players

That’s what I said, yeah

Oh no he’s making a little less than the shit ton of money he was already making cry me a river , why do yall care so much

Duren wont ever be as good as KAT, and KAT game should be one the best at aging since he is such a good shooter.

i mean goberts been pretty injury free and he’s got a very similar build

I mean, Duren is wildly limited in that he can’t space the floor and has the unique talent of Ben Simmons being better at shooting 3s. Overwhelmingly defense and dunks type of guy.

That’s legit the best I’ve ever seen him play defense

offensively you need a floor spacing 5. and KAT is best player at that of all time.

I think KATs game can translate to an old man game. He will lose athleticism but the skills will still be there.

Only reason you don’t want to do this is if Knicks think KAT is not taking care of his body enough that its a big injury risk.

Nah I think wemby is the best center in the league and he is totally worth that.

If they give him a max extension then getting below the 2nd apron next year is going to be nearly impossible without gutting the depth of the team.

I get that as well, but I don’t like the idea of limiting earning potential, especially when guys like Lebron bring more money to the franchise than he’ll ever get a fair % of (imo), and then the dirtbag owners flip franchises for billions. The whole Kawhi situation was for an extra 10mil/yr (originally). And LBJ is doing polymarket ads and borrowing $300mil. It’s stupid to me when they’ve generated so much more.

And now teams are getting broken up trying to manage.

I don’t have a solution, I just hate the situation.

my point is that he shouldn’t be

the only guys making 55mill+ should be the absolute best, #1 option on good teams type guys

Then he can go to the bad teams. He can choose if he wants less money or to win, can’t have both

agreed