Yup, that’s fair. The funny thing tho is you still see position players occasionally pitch in huge blowouts, or super long extra inning games when the bullpen is depleted (less common with the man on second in extras rules tho). But, you basically never see a pitcher not named Shohei Ohtani hit anymore.

You still see those position players throw the ball over the plate for a strike. But, I still remember the rare occasions I have seen a pitcher hit a home run. The clip of Bartolo Colon hitting one is etched into my brain haha

But hitters don’t regularly need to pitch. Pitchers used to bat whenever they were pitching

This is like saying linebackers are bad at kicking

This is really getting far away from the question tho into, this isn’t what was asked territory. Centers would generally be terrible PGs, WRs would always make a terrible nose tackle etc.

Hitters are bad at pitching, but not throwing. They all need to throw.

Position players pitching is one of baseball’s greatest joys.

Boo this man. Pitching by position player are a blast

It’s always funny when they have to bring a non-pitcher to pitch because the team has literally run out of pitchers. The biggest goof about this was with Canseco where he asked to pitch while on the Rangers because they were already losing and he ended up straining his arm leading to him getting Tommy John surgery.

I kinda wonder if at any point in baseball history it was normal for batters to also be pitchers.

Like in cricket while you do batting specialist and pitching specialist you do have several who do both

Like i understand that baseball is a derivation from the British sport Rounders but I do wonder that

My bet on a team of the nine best-hitting pitchers vs. the nine best-pitching hitters would be heavily dependent on which team Ohtani is on but I still think the pitchers take it either way.

But they’re good at playing defense in their position.

“Hitters” isn’t a position any more than “free throw shooters” are

Defensive linemen are bad passers but they are never asked to do that. Batters aren’t asked to pitch.

It’s not comparable to centers shooting free throws

Found the pitcher!

Yeah, every team would have a Seth Curry as the 15th man to back up their rim protector

Welcome back, Jose Calderon

It’d be an interesting rule-change if you could choose anyone else to shoot the free-throw, but you lose one attempt and the opponent always gets the inbound

You mean like the punter in American football who’s just there for punts and is not really a football player at all?

That’s soccer with penalty kick. The team can choose anyone to take the penalty. I’ve always thought that the guy who drew the penalty should get an assist (unless of course it’s the same guy as the penalty taker).

This would be such a cool novelty concept, taking the idea of the technical FT shooter to the next level

They would’ve flamed him if he came up in the US doing it as well. Someone has to be the trailblazer. I wonder when we’ll see the second hitter/pitcher. There has to be some kid inspired by him, and some coach willing to let it happen now that we’ve seen it work in Shohei. Wouldn’t expect them to have the same star power tho.

Ohtani the goat but I do think the criticisms are somewhat valid. Somewhat strong chance he will never pitch again now and his injuries could really negatively impact his hitting. It definitely is a pride thing for him and he’s so good at both, that I totally get it

That’s just how absurd the idea of him doing both is. That’s how much of an anomaly Ohtani is. That’s why he’s the GOAT.

I think out of that list, Owings was the main one I’d consider decent. The others were mostly really good by pitcher standards. Madbum and Zambrano did have some power, but neither of those 2 were consistently hitting for average.

The Colon erasure will not stand

Just going to mention Dontrelle Willis here.

Max Fried hit .273

greinke

Mike Hampton was a good hitter. Max Fried is a good hitter, and the Braves used both as pinch hitters. Hell Max Fried has a walkoff hit as a pinch hitter.

For over 100 years, it was demonstrated that sacrificing one batter in the lineup was a better strategic move than trying to have good hitting pitchers. The importance of pitching in baseball outweighs nearly everything else in the sport.

Maybe, but starting pitchers only get to have two or maybe three at-bats every fifth game, and even less if you’re a reliever. It’s hard to get good at hitting if you never have a chance to hit in a game. There’s only so much the batting cages can do to help.

Yeah but despite still having to do it a decent number of top level bowlers have looked inept batting

Baseball goes all the way back to the 1800s. It’s only this decade that the NL adapted the designated hitter. It’s not self fulfilling. It’s like trying to be a lawyer and a doctor at the same time. What do you think would happen if society requires lawyers to also be doctors? Eventually society would decide that’s a stupid idea and ask them to pick one.

I’m a NL Purist as well. I also hate the man on second in extra innings.

But personally, I’ve liked the pitch clock, and I love the ABS challenge system (although I wish you could be wrong 3x instead of 2x).

Overall, I think the game is better now with these changes than it did before, even if I don’t universally love all the changes to the sport over the last few years.

i kind of hate the idea that (nearly) every kid who wants to play in the majors dreams of when he gets his first hit- but now were essentially telling half of those kids (as pitchers make up about half the roster) that they won’t have that since they will (likely) never get an at-bat. and they additionally don’t need to work on the other half of baseball (including but not limited to offense and non-pitching defense). i honestly couldn’t think of a time you wanted to grow up to be a pitcher but thats the only thing you do.

No, fuck the dh being in both leagues. I prefer it when the AL and NL had one completely arbitrary distinction between them.

Haha, I mean given the injuries he’s had, he’s def been more of a hitter the last few years. Will give them that. Luckily r/NBA doesn’t seem to be as discriminating on that definition.

You can be nice to people who disagree. Nobody is threatening any human rights or arguing settled scientific facts because of NL purists.

I actually think it’s more nuanced than that. In baseball, you can be the best hitter in the world, but you only hit one out of every 9 times. It’s how the Angels had the 2 best players of this generation at the same time in Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani for years and never made the playoffs with them.

In basketball, a single star has such a huge impact on the floor, and if they happen to be awful at free throws, that can also just straight up work against you.

New rule - you may sub in a designated shooter for two free throws per quarter.

Could still hack a Shaq, but it will cost you 7-8 points first.

That’s fair. I was mostly counting MLB. But, should count the negro leagues as well.

Before people flame me, as I know this is r/NBA, it’s just what they were called. I only use that word when referring to the old leagues that existed before Major League Baseball was integrated. Just to get ahead of the confusion as this isn’t an MLB subreddit.

No they weren’t. Pitchers have always been terrible hitters (maybe not in the 1800s, I don’t know) because pitching is a specialist position and their ability to hit is irrelevant to their value. And both pitching and hitting generally require years of practice, and it doesn’t make sense for them to waste their time improving their hitting instead of working on their pitching.

Hey

I mean now anyone can set

Yes, a libero can go in for 2 players. That’s what makes them special and is why they wear the different jersey. They can only serve for one player but they are the only player that can play in multiple different places in the rotation.

Honestly I think first base is the best comparison though - DH is like if in basketball you could have someone else shoot your free throws for you

True, but before there was universal DH these guys would always be sent to first base tho lol

I think “slow as molasses DH” is even more abt.

Jon Lester

Chuck Knoblauch got the yips, too, and couldn’t throw to first from second.

There are examples of catchers who couldn’t throw back to the mound, either.

Jim Thome/Frank Thomas type beat

I think we’ll have AI androids and robots playing in the MLB before we have separate offense/defense teams of humans.

Business decisions.

Prime was so good noone would throw in his direction, but lord help you if the team ran the ball his way.

A lot of CB’s were sprinters in college. Imagine trying to stop a guy running full speed at you who has 30-50 lbs on you and is just slightly slower than you.

It’s going to be a losing battle almost everytime.

Prime don’t tackle

“Well what route would I ever want Devin Hester to run except straight to the end zone?” - me, in route to a perfect season in Madden 08.

A better example might be LeGarrette Blount, a good RB with some 1000+ yards seasons but couldn’t catch a pass to save his life. And he played with prime Tom Brady and Stafford, so it wasn’t a problem of not having a good QB to get him the ball hahaha

Hard disagree here, DBs are expected to make routine catches and they do work on catching in drills oftentimes. A lot of DBs do actually have good hands because they played wide receiver at other times growing up. That all being said, DBs most often get 1 or less chances to make a routine catch during a game so it probably isn’t a good example relative to a starting big man who takes a few free throws a game minimum.

Hal Gill. That man couldn’t handle a puck, but when his long ass 6’7 body laid next to the net you were not getting a pass through.

Slavin’s hands and stickwork are actually fantastic. Not a great shot for sure, but he doesn’t put up points primarily because he spends basically zero time in the offensive zone. He does actually have offensive value, but it really only shows up in advanced team stats.

You typically hold a hockey stick with your hands.

My GOAT 😤

You, I like you

My spherical king

Never been caught stealing btw 😤😤

I mean 30 is a lot, in general you’ll only have like 15-20 or so players who steal 30 or more (this year has 13). Gotta drop it down to 15 or so for “guys that can threaten this if on base”

Yeah, this is exactly why most answers in this thread don’t quite ring true.

The weaknesses brought up here are things those players are not expected or regularly put in a position to do

For big men free throws, supposedly its because of how small the ball is relatively to their hands or something? That’s what some big men have claimed, anywag

There are still certain positions that are fluid depending on team strategy. Many teams have CDMs go between center backs and throw their fullbacks forward in possession so the team effectively have 3 center backs and four wingers.

The closest soccer equivalent is someone like Rory Delap or James Ward Prowse who are absolutely bang average players with one skill that completely breaks the game.

The difference in soccer is the keeper

The 8 position players in baseball are interchangable in the same way all 5 positions in basketball are, but pitchers truly are a specialist position the same was that goalies or quarterbacks are.

The NBA simply doesn’t have specialists whose skillsets are completely different from everyone else in the way that many other sports do.

I think the difference is that you could do as you are describing with the 11 QBs on defense and other stuff like that. But it would go so poorly that it’d probably not professional league level, or if they are they would be record setting in terms of being terrible. A basketball team with 5 pgs would be an average bad team to even good. Especially, if we are thinking all time, or if they have even played even a single game at pg. Like a quick list off the top of my head. PG - Magic Sg - Steph Curry SF - Luka PF - Lebron C - Giannis

Nah. Total Football and its off-shoots might be somewhat more egalitarian than the norm for the sport, but they are the exceptions. Also, there is no analog for the goalkeeper in basketball, which is extreme specialization. In football, a player who is fouled does not need to take the penalty kick. In basketball, the fouled player must shoot the free throws. Finally, in basketball there have been players of every position who has led the league in scoring. Heck, in a given NBA season there will be a player from all five standard positions who will lead their team in scoring. In football, no goalkeeper or fullback (and almost no midfielder) will ever lead their team/league in goals.

This is not a value judgment on the two sports. It’s just the small number of players and small size of playing field allows for much more even distribution of responsibilities.

It’s the difference between a sport only having positions or having roles (with specific rules) and positions. Football has a lot of positions, but only two roles: Goalie and outfield player.

Basketball is pretty unique in having only positions and no roles at all.

Jokic?

Rather than look at players at the opposite ends of the spectrum to determine specialization, you should look at the player at the furthest end of the spectrum and then the next guy closest to him in skillset.

A goalie, a quarterback, and a pitcher have completely different skills from everyone else on their team that shares the field/court with them. You typically don’t even know who among their on-field/court teammates is the second-best at those skills.

The same can’t be said about basketball players. Using traditional, possibly outdated positions, the PF is the generally second-best at C skills and the SG of SF is generally second-best at PG skills.

I expect my Celtics to regularly put White, Pritchard, George, Tatum, and Queta on the floor at the same time. You can’t really call Queta a specialist at C, because Tatum is able to do a lot of the same things but he’s just worse at it due to his size. And you definitely can’t say that the PG is a specialist since they’ll have 2 on the floor at the same time, and Tatum initiates like a PG (after someone else brings the ball up).

Meanwhile, no one on my Patriots throws the ball other than Drake Maye. I have no idea between the other guys how good they are at throwing a football.

Little known loophole in the rules; if you start the game with 5 points guards you get multi ball at the start of every quarter

That’s what I’m saying. The differences in the positions are because of strategy, not because of the rules.

I mean teams have done 4 PGs and 1 F/C in small ball lineups, so why is 5 PGs so hard to believe?

I think OKC had some lineups that were very close to being 5 PGs against SAS in the playoffs. It was about attacking the slowness of the defense and pushing the pace

I got of 5 PGs compared to a team of 9 pitchers would fair much better against a regular roster

The point is that every player on the court has technically an equal opportunity to score, due to lack of defined positions, unlike, say, fútbol, where a defender has a much lesser chance of scoring than a forward.

You’re getting downvoted but both through kinematic and kinetic analysis, centers often have different biomechanical demands from point guards given that “center” is often assigned to the tallest person on the court that also often stays closest to the basket. Thats not to say you still cant play 5 point guards that all do the same thing. You would most definitely lose especially if they all had the same role, but thats not something you can do in football and baseball as you can in basketball and soccer.

but a kicker that fucks up won’t ever get a playing time tbh lol.

while a striker that are shit at penalty probably still plays games if he is a really good striker.

and he will get plenty of chances for doing penalty even if he is terrible:

1. Its penalty kick in a cup game.

2. He is Chasing Hattrick

3. Designated Penalty kicker is injured/subbed out

he is like 78% while average was 79% iirc.

but average for top striker were 85-90%

CR is around 85%

haaland is around 88%

Harry Kane is 90%

doesn’t help that messi have quite a bit of high profile misses

Does he? I know he missed a lot this World Cup and in one of the Copa America finals but otherwise his rate is just okay right?

Or RBs that are horrendous at pass protection. Always hilarious to see a RB get annihilated on a blitz.

Idk shit about baseball.

What does ‘pull the ball’ mean?

And can you elaborate on your 2ns sentence please? Thanks!

Did not expect to see Pozo and Hedges on this list lol

It’s telling that Mike Piazza is considered on the greatest catchers ever just because he was a great hitter at his position (and not a very good defender)

You forgot Drake Baldwin and his .284 average, splitting as C/DH, but primarily as C

Gabriel Moreno is leading the national league in batting average at .311. And he’s a qualified hitter (enough plate appearances). Not sure where you got that from.

Also batting average is not a great indicator of who the best hitters are.

will smith was injured and cal raleigh had an off year.

Give it a decade and the NBA will start allowing any player to shoot free throws too. They’ve already started to penalize the hack a Shaq. Only a matter of time until they abolish it completely.

You can argue that a similar thing happens in basketball. Centers tend to be taller than most and below average in the skill parts of the game like shooting passing, etc. they hyper select for skills like rebounding and defense typically, if there is offense it’s a lot of offense 3-5 feet from the basket

I mean you could argue centers are very specifically selected for their unique talents.

Ohtani excepted

Not all

Ohtani?

Not to mention that they had an extra down and no time to run another ply if they were short. If you throw incomplete, you have time to run another play. It was the right call, they just got rushed because they expected a pats timeout and didn’t know that they ahd scouted that exact play in that situation.

Haha reading this made me go watch the highlights from that 4th quarter.

Barely any time on the clock. If it’s incomplete, they just go again, but if they run it and get stopped short, they burn a ton of clock. Maybe it’s the wrong call, and it definitely went as badly wrong as it could have done, but it wasn’t an awful call.

Plus a lot of the top comments are off topic discussing baseball, which isn’t actually a sport.

The lows can be really low for heavyweight fights. Even some fights that people glaze as peak entertainment like Fury vs Wilder trilogy… outside of the knockdowns those fights had a looot of boring rounds.

But I still enjoy heavyweight fights on the fight card as a change of pace.

The “Joe Milton.”

Agreed and there is no perfect analogy, I think. My main point is that everyone learns how to shoot at some point while playing basketball and everyone learns how to kick in soccer. It also seems similar that people who shoot penalties miss them mostly due to internal pressure and not technique issues and that is very similar to basketball (see Ben Simmons).

Also the catchers position wrecks havoc on your hips and lower body. Perhaps all the wear and tear takes away from the power in their swing

Beat me to it, some amazing snipers just don’t have the flash and flair to pull off some of the dangles that the shootout artists can

I agree but those elite hitters are able to hit and do nothing else. if they are bad a fielding, they can DH. You can’t play basketball and just never shoot free throws, never get rebounds, never play defense, never shoot the ball… etc.

Back in the day, there were some great fielders who were terrible hitters. Guys like Mark Belanger, Ray Oyler, Mario Mendoza, etc… I think analytics has put an end to that kind of player, showing that you just can’t afford a hole in the lineup to play a guy who’s a great SS.

We’re talking Homer, something and the Straw

I heard some guy got killed in New York City and they never solved the case.

You sure you’re not mixing him up with Chuck Knoblauch?

Both definitions work