Draymond is ⁶⁰⁄₁₆₉, or 35.50%.

I didn’t include players like Draymond who didn’t really look to score much. A lot of these Draymond games where ones where he had more Turnovers than shot attempts, not just makes. For example in the Memphis series, he had more Turnovers than FG’s in the first 5 games, but he only attempted 3, 5, 3, 2, and 4 shots respectively.

Not exactly a superstar

Yeah, I considered adding AST, AST/TOV ratio, FGs and FGA, but I couldn’t figure out how to make the reddit table not look so cluttered when I added more columns.

Yes, it’s a very simplistic stat that misses a lot of context, both for Harden and for other players.

Magic being high isn’t a shocker, as he was always extremely turnover prone and wasn’t a volume scorer. He’s an example of why raw turnovers aren’t the end-all-be-all for PGs because gunslingers like him often create far more offense than conservative ball handlers with lower turnovers.

I’d say the bigger issue is that his data favors volume scorers, because they will rarely have more TOV than FGs unless its a really bad game. KD is a known turnover problem in the playoffs, and he looks good because he is such a high volume scorer.

It’s probably because Magic wasn’t as much of a scorer compared to a lot of the other names there.

And there are a lot of non-ball-handlers on the list too.

I got a few more for you, OP u/mysterioso7:

Player

Total Playoff Gms

Gms w/ TOV>=FGs

%

Jason Kidd

158

59

37.34%

John Stockton

182

55

30.22%

Isiah Thomas

111

22

19.81%

Kenny Smith

68

17

25.00%

Rajon Rondo

134

35

26.11%

Steve Nash

120

28

23.33%

I can send you the spreadsheets, if needed.

Yes, there’s a lot of context to all of these numbers for sure.

21 of his 22 were games he had 5 or fewer made field goals.

14 of the 21 were games he had 5 or fewer turnovers.

He didn’t turn it over a lot. He just had a lot of games where he didn’t get that many buckets.

For his career, CP had 39 playoff games with 5 or fewer made field goals.

Pure point guards are generally less relied on for made shots so it makes sense to see him and Magic there. As primarily a bucket getter the harden stat is truly bonkers.

If I had to guess, he just didn’t score/attempt to score that much. He prolly still had a decent assist/tov ratio

I would guess Stocktons numbers would be similar, crazy high passing volume with low scoring load

Yeah that’s the name that jumped out at me. James Harden is really a SG at heart even though he does a lot of ball handling but CP3 is a true point guard.

Harden’s stats always looks good in averages.

But playoffs series has a very small sample size. One stinker on important game could cost your team the series, even if your whole series average is not bad. And Harden is famous for having these stinkers on important games.

I did break his down by team in my notes, actually.

• NOH: ³⁄₂₃ or 13.04%- LAC: ⁶⁄₅₃ or 11.32%- HOU: ⁵⁄₂₆ or 19.23%- OKC: ¹⁄₇ or 14.29%- PHO: ⁷⁄₄₀ or 17.50%

It’s true the rate is a little higher after he leaves LA, but it’s not by a ton. As another user pointed out, CP3 has never turned the ball over a lot, rather he has a lot of games where he just didn’t score very many baskets.

Just doing some quick math, it would be ³⁷⁄₁₄₈, or exactly 25%

Jordan averaged 3.1 TOV per game in the playoffs (Harden for example is at 3.5) so I don’t think it’s accurate to say he was a super low turnover player. What is accurate to say is that he averaged more turnovers earlier in his career, before his two three-peats (3.8 turnovers from 1990 and earlier, 2.7 after)

He was also not the primary ball handler like Lebron often is.

It’s certainly a lot to do with narrative. Magic won five rings so people don’t really scrutinize, fairly or not. Though it’s worth mentioning that Magic averaged 12.3 assists per game (Harden 6.4) and also still had 13.4 FGA per game (Harden 15.8).

To add to what others have said, Magic was called Tragic in 84 and was called a choker… This was after already having 2 rings. Social media era would have been unbearable with the idiotic narratives

Because Magic won 5 titles and didn’t routinely wilt in the playoffs every spring like Harden does

I feel like Magic also tried some ridiculously optimistic stuff that sometimes came off in an era where the spacing was to put it mildly, awful.

I’d imagine the chances for a turnover were a lot higher because of the tighter lanes and I’d also hazard a guess that the league average on TOVs was higher anyway.

Magic also passed a lot more, he averaged nearly 4 more assists than Harden does currently for his career.

A lot of Harden’s passing is more simplified because of the offenses he’s been in (Largely drive and kick to an open 3pt shooter or throwing a lob)

I chose Shaq because he was pretty high on the all-time playoff turnovers list (one spot higher than he is on the scoring list). Durant for a similar reason, and because they were teammates. Jordan I just put because he’s a GOAT and I wanted to see how he compared.

You ever watch Jordan? Not many plays where he didnt touch the ball.

Jordan had the ball in his hands all the time. I know it says SG on the stat sheet but he was bringing the ball up the court on most possessions and the offense flowed through him.

We don’t want context we wanna highlight hardens flaws.

Not really when you remember Magic averaged 12 assists per game and Harden is around 6.

turnovers are if anythingh the most underated/undervalued stat for how important they are, they are a small number that doesnt pop off in a PRA statline but have mora value than a defensive rebound

Like all stats, you just have to apply some context. Also Magic isn’t #2 all time, just #2 out of these players. Other pass-first guys who didn’t shoot as much as Magic, like Stockton for example, would be higher.

Two of Giannis’s games came in his first playoff series in 2015. There was a ²⁄₁₁ with 2 TOV and a ²⁄₆ with 2 TOV in that series.

The other three games were game 4 against the Raptors in 2017 (⁶⁄₁₉ with 7 TOV), game 3 against the Raptors in 2019 (⁵⁄₁₆ with 8 TOV) and game 1 against the Heat in 2020 (⁶⁄₁₂ with 6 TOV).

Giannis is a volume scorer who is actually a pretty good ball handler (his turnovers are a reflection of his play-style, not has ball handling), which is why he is insanely low. He isn’t going to have a lot of Paul/Magic games where he is perfectly fine not shooting while throwing touchdown passes, nor does he start turning the ball a lot more like Westbrook, who start turning over the ball a lot because defenses pick up on their problems.

Shaq is a bit different, as his handle isn’t great, but he rarely handled the ball that much. He was more of an off-ball monster, who battled in the paint, and when he had the ball, he tended to either quickly pass or go for the attack.

I put players who I thought were interesting comparisons, either because I thought their playstyles were close, they were teammates, or they’re historically significant comparisons. Tatum doesn’t really fit any of those, completely different position and playstyle and isn’t high on the all-time playoff turnover list like Shaq for example. It’s not like I included every single superstar here lol, it’s not comprehensive.

Not a single fanbase in sports more insecure than Celtics fans.