endlessincoherence

527 | 10 hours ago

Steve Nash got almost everyone he played with a bag. LeBron also got a lot of players nice contracts.

Denz292 | SAS

238 | 9 hours ago

The Suns going from 29 wins to 62 wins after acquiring Steve Nash backs this, and is justification for why he won MVP that season.

Notoriouslydishonest

174 | 8 hours ago

The 04 Suns, before Nash, had the 21st most efficient offense in the NBA.

The 05 Suns, with Nash, had the most efficient offense of any team in the 2000s.

TheFemiFactor

25 | 7 hours ago

Nice, what other roster changes/coaching changes if I may ask

username_notavail

54 | 5 hours ago

Essentially, Marbury out Nash and Q Richardson in. D’Antoni took over in the 03-04 season.

WiffleBallZZZ

20 | 5 hours ago

Not a lot of changes actually. They added Quentin Richardson and traded Marbury.

Canesjags4life | Heat

21 | 3 hours ago

06 Nash just adds more fuel cuz that offense didn’t miss s step despite losing Amaré for the season.

rickeyethebeerguy

15 | 4 hours ago

Jimmy butler got undrafted guys paid.

U_R_FRAGILE

8 | 9 hours ago

Many good raisers and Steve Nash is certainly one of them. Nash is in the top 6-7 floor and ceiling raisers I have ever seen.

ciregno | Knicks

5 | 2 hours ago

Steve Nash made Tim Thomas look good. That’s all that needs to be said.

Skunedog48

1 | 18 minutes ago

Larry Bird saying that as an executive he would never pay for a role player coming off of playing with LeBron because he always makes his teammates look better is a crazy compliment

SnooChipmunks4208

517 | 11 hours ago

Steph Curry is the greatest ceiling raiser because he is the greatest off ball scorer of all time.

LeBron + Curry and MJ + Curry are better than LeBron + MJ for ceiling.

Jonesbro | Gran Destino

214 | 11 hours ago

Curry on the Olympic team proved why he’s a ceiling raiser. Let’s others be great until he needs to fuck the sky

EpicCyclops | Trail Blazers

102 | 11 hours ago

I agree with this. I didn’t know this was the answer I was looking for when I came into this thread, but it was.

I wasn’t happy with the Jordan and LeBron answers for ceiling because they just make a team so incredibly great that it really can’t fail at going far, which is more of a floor raiser. If you put Curry on a competent team, it literally breaks the game of basketball, but only if that team can get him the ball and a little space to work.

youvanda1

24 | 10 hours ago

But hear me out. But with the Jordan and LeBron pairing, I think you could secretly tell Jordan what the reason for the pairing was and it would almost certainly be enough motivation for him to be such a psycho that there will never be a doubt who the greatest ceiling raiser is.

JabbaWockyy | MIA

19 | 9 hours ago

Hear me out- just tell Curry that LeBron is French and Michael is Serbian.

Impossible-Group8553

28 | 11 hours ago

That’s just offense though. Imagine having MJ’s perimeter defense next to LeBron.

Currently_Stoned | Warriors

36 | 10 hours ago

The margins you’d blow other teams out by adding Steph on offense would be much move valuable. No perimeter defensive pairing would be anywhere near as impactful.

Robinsonirish | Finland

4 | 8 hours ago

The difference between Curry, Jordan and LeBron on offense is a lot smaller than the difference between Jordan and LeBron, compared to Curry on defense, in my opinion.

Still taking all 3 if I’m making a 5, simply because everyone can’t have the ball all the time, but personally I’d rather have Jordan and Lebron. Curry is getting hunted 24-7 on defense against any other top 5 you can make. Jordan and LeBron don’t have flaws, although I guess 3p shooting for Jordan isn’t up to modern NBA standards.

fyhr100

9 | 5 hours ago

This isn’t who is the better player. It’s who is the best ceiling raiser. All you did is explain why you think Jordan and LeBron are better players overall, not why they are more of a ceiling raiser. The point is that Steph doesn’t need the ball in his hand to make a huge impact, which is important in letting other players shine.

Robinsonirish | Finland

5 | 5 hours ago

LeBron + Curry and MJ + Curry are better than LeBron + MJ for ceiling.

This is what I initially responded to, I disagree with the statement. 2 sides of the court exist.

africhic | Jazz Bandwagon

5 | 4 hours ago

Both sides aren’t equal.

Robinsonirish | Finland

1 | 4 hours ago

No, they’re not equal I agree, but Curry’s struggles on defense doesn’t come close to making up for how important defense still is, in my opinion. It’s like what, 45-55? 40-60 in favour of offense? It’s not like it’s 20-80 in terms of importance.

SkyCrossSteel

1 | 6 hours ago

Steph isn’t a bad defender unless you put him on a team with no defensively slanted or good two way players. He’s fine to good especially when he got stronger around 2018.

Robinsonirish | Finland

7 | 6 hours ago

He is an average defender in the NBA, but hes not being compared to an average nba defender, hes being compared to the goats. In that tier of players hes an awful defender.

SkyCrossSteel

4 | 6 hours ago

But what makes Steph a solid defender isn’t PoA defense or generally giving effort defensively. It’s his defensive rotations in team defense overall with solid hands to go along with it. He knows how to funnel guys to help if they go at him and because he tends to give effort defensively teams would kill clock badly thinking he’d get cooked in a few seconds. He was a part of elite playoff defensive line ups relative to his era.

SnooChipmunks4208

4 | 10 hours ago

No question its great, but it could be replicated by say, Frobe and Pippen (feel free to replace with names you like better).

There is no replacement for Curry.

porncollecter69 | Mavericks

2 | 3 hours ago

They would still get demolished by the KD warriors.

Ok_Pineapple_Num | Warriors

2 | 2 hours ago

Elite perimeter defense is not nearly as impactful as having the greatest shooter of all time on offense.

That’s just a fact of basketball.

First off, at the individual level, players can impact their team’s overall offensive rating much more than defensive rating. Defense is always more of a team thing than individual thing.

Second off, perimeter defense specifically is not nearly as impactful as rim protection. Steph’s weakness at defense would be a relative non-issue if you have someone like Hakeem manning the paint, and other defenders like Lebron and Kawhi to help on the perimeter.

MJ is obviously the better player in a vacuum, but Steph is the far better ceiling raiser.

TheFemiFactor

2 | 7 hours ago

Interesting, so let’s look at this hypothetical while we’re here:
2016 Warriors that lost the 3-1 lead to the Cavs, if they replace LeBron with Curry who would have a higher ceiling?
Then 2013 Heat, if you take out LeBron and put Curry on there, who would have a higher ceiling?

Jerko_23 | Raptors

1 | 3 hours ago

My guy, lebron and mj is better than any combinations of players that can be thought of

AC0909 | Knicks

429 | 9 hours ago

LeBron is so clearly the answer to biggest floor raiser. He took rosters that, without him, were clearly lottery teams to NBA Finals year after year.

I think the answer to ceiling raiser is Curry. But could be convinced it MJ or Shaq also.

DefNotAnAlter

79 | 8 hours ago

Yeah I am surprised I had to scroll this far for the most obvious answer, none of the other players listed above are making finals with 2018 Cavs

Relatively_Cool | Lakers

68 | 8 hours ago

It’s because everyone wants to get cute with their answers. Dudes said Tim Duncan and CP3. It’s LeBron.

elkman_23 | Cavaliers

3 | 5 hours ago

Or the 07 Cavs

ElectricGhostMan

19 | 4 hours ago

There’s a reason why people call half of Lebron’s Teams “Lebron and friends” or why Larry Bird something said “he’d never trade for anyone playing with Lebron James because theyre not actually good theyre just playing with Lebron.” I know for damn certain no one thought Lebron and friends were beating the rockets in the first round.

brewskyy | Pacers

17 | 4 hours ago

“You don’t understand son, them guys playing with LeBron James look a whole lot better than what they really are” - Larry Bird on refusing to trade for LBJS former teammates as president of basketball ops for the pacers.

AtmaWeap0n

1 | 4 minutes ago

Bird knows ball

nutelamitbutter | Rockets

10 | 5 hours ago

LeBron is Both

Milo0007 | Raptors

10 | 3 hours ago

LeBron is a good answer for both, and definitely the floor raiser, but he’s not the ultimate ceiling raiser.

The ultimate ceiling raiser to me is “add one superstar player to the best teams and they have the biggest leap.“ LeBron is in the running, but a lot of all-time teams already have generational ball dominant players. LeBron will be better, but there’d likely fit issues.

For me, its prime Garnett, Hakeem, Durant, or Curry. You can pop Durant or Garnett on any team in history and the fit remains perfect. Curry supercharges any team that wasn’t built around a defensively weak guard, and Hakeem any team that wasn’t built around dominant big men.

Ambitious_Spinach_31

5 | 3 hours ago

We even have decent data for this. The 3 teams he left in free agency averaged 30 less wins and had a -11.9 net rating shift compared to his last year there. All 3 made the playoffs (and finals 2x) to all 3 missing the playoffs.

cdskip | Pistons

1 | an hour ago

Yeah. IMO the best argument is the Cavs after he left the first time.

2010 Cavs: 61 wins, with the next five in minutes played being Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Anderson Varejão, JJ Hickson, and Delonte West.

All of those guys except West (traded) were back the next year, though Varejão got hurt and Williams got traded halfway through the season.

Result: 19 wins. And as far as the excuse that two decent players were missing in the latter half of the season, the team actually did better in terms of winning percentage after the Williams trade and Varejão injury. Mo was traded on February 24th, at which point the team was 10-47. They went 9-14 the rest of the way. With Varejão, he got hurt on January 5th when they were 8-27. They went 11-36 the rest of the way, slightly better as a percentage.

bkmamba | Lakers

390 | 11 hours ago

CP3 is a pretty great floor raiser minus his last season

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

103 | 10 hours ago

The answer plainly is cp3. He made every single team he went to better in his prime as is on each of their best regular season record teams

bkmamba | Lakers

62 | 10 hours ago

Even when he was out of his prime he made the team he was on better

ajteitel | Suns

18 | 10 hours ago

I am convinced prime, still athletic cp3 if a few inches taller would be in the LeBron/Jordan discussions.

WaterHaven

2 | an hour ago

Especially post-eye surgery

BIPOC_Ally

30 | 9 hours ago

CP3 led OKC to more regular season and playoff wins than any year Westbrook did after KD left too

Maverick_1991 | Hawks

9 | 8 hours ago

Cp3 had a better team to be fair.

tacopower69 | DEN

12 | 5 hours ago

honestly that was not the consensus at the time. Looking back yeah, the 2019-2020 roster had much of their core already, they were just really young, and we now know that SGA would go on to win MVP and a ring, but without that hindsight bias people expected they would be obviously worse than the recent OKC team lead by Westbrook and PG. That 2018-2019 roster had Steven Adams and Schroeder too. They were considered pretty good. Not contenders but at minimum making the playoffs. Meanwhile 2019-2020 was considered the start of the rebuild.

Fearless_Call_4964

10 | 8 hours ago

Wow, wow, easy there tiger. Paul George was a legit top 5 player that one year before going to the Clippers. Shai only became Shai after getting lessons from CP3. He was expected to be an all star at max before learning the dark arts of Christopher Emanuel

Robinsonirish | Finland

10 | 8 hours ago

Well, that’s not very hard considering that team was garbage after KD left.

cubs223425 | Bulls

33 | 9 hours ago

Nah, it’s LeBron. All you have to do is look at the rosters he had in his first Cleveland stint, rosters he dragged deep into the playoffs, to defend the argument. IDK that Chris Paul ever had to play with rosters as bad as LeBron endured in his early years, and he certainly wasn’t making the NBA Finals with a starting lineup of Ilgauskas, Gooden, Pavlovic, and Hughes like LeBron did.

Forsaken_Mastodon291

16 | 7 hours ago

Right this isn’t even a real debate. Truth is Lebron should have like 10 MVPs

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

11 | 6 hours ago

Cp3 brought a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 11 years to the finals the year that he was added. If that isn’t carrying a roster deep into the playoffs as a floor raiser idk what is

schmubert

17 | 9 hours ago

He only is if you ignore LeBron.

Bankey_Moon

11 | 5 hours ago

Has there ever been a team that would have improved more by having CP3 than Lebron added to it?

AustinRiversDaGod | NOP

3 | 8 hours ago

Yeah his last season with the Hornets, you could pretty much bank on we were probably going to win if he played and we were probably going to lose if he didn’t.

Heil_Heimskr | Mavericks

2 | 3 hours ago

“Plainly” so you think CP3 is taking those early Cavs teams to the finals? Come on man. LeBron is so easily the answer to floor raiser it’s not even funny.

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

1 | 3 hours ago

Prime cp3? Honestly? Yah

Heil_Heimskr | Mavericks

1 | 2 hours ago

Absolutely hilarious take

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

1 | 2 hours ago

🤷‍♂️

BeyondTheVault | Vancouver Grizzlies

85 | 9 hours ago

The most underrated part of CP3 is he was able to play in every system and improve the team.

The absolute definition of a floor leader.

The most unfortunate part of CP3 is he’s rarely fully healthy. Also he’s a dick so people are willing to overlook him lol.

TrustExtension6116

12 | 4 hours ago

CP3 who’s 6’10” is top 5 all time lol

koala37

8 | 3 hours ago

I love CP10

dontgetitwisted_fr | Raptors

21 | 11 hours ago

CP3 was the greatest point guard of our generation.

Kyle Lowry was a pretty good floor raiser too.

Kahi Leonard was a good ceiling raiser for the 2019 Raptors.

Haliburton is a great floor raiser, Indy and Sac looked like complete garbage when he was hurt/traded.

Jokic good floor raiser too.

Giannis is a ceiling raiser he just hasn’t really had a chance to raise a ceiling until now in Miami

Icy_Category_2275

6 | 9 hours ago

dude forgot Bron lol

dontgetitwisted_fr | Raptors

2 | 3 hours ago

Everybody else is talking about Bron

No need to hop on the glaze train

smolpaux | Bucks

1 | 5 hours ago

Is Giannis being the centerpiece of the Bucks’ championship not ceiling raising to you?

dontgetitwisted_fr | Raptors

2 | 3 hours ago

Floor raising because he lifted everybody up

Particular-Beat-6645

8 | 5 hours ago

I’m a premier CP hater and I agree.

After the trade from the Rockets to OKC, he could’ve just strolled toward retirement. But he boosted that roster and clearly mentored SGA.

Clearly there was similar intent with GSW and the Spurs. If he had pulled off another turnaround for one of them, I’d resign my hater status.

Jester1525 | Spurs

3 | an hour ago

He was SUPER important to the Spurs.. We had a very young team that had no clue on how to play next to Wemby.. Yeah, we didn’t have the year we wanted but that record is partially because Vic went down halfway through the season.. If he hadn’t we would have hit. 500 or better and that is a huge turnaround.

BananaRepublic_BR | Spurs

7 | 10 hours ago

I’m thoroughly convinced the trio of Wemby, Fox, and CP3 would have made the playoffs in 2025.

SkyCrossSteel

1 | 6 hours ago

With a rookie Castle off the bench? Or CP3 on the bench as Castle starts next to Fox?

newrimmmer93

2 | 7 hours ago

To a lesser extent Ricky Rubio was this way. Zach Lowe I think said something like “Ricky Rubio doesn’t look good when he plays but every advanced stat shows every team gets better when he’s in the floor.”

Guys who have that transcendent passing ability really raise the floor

Muted_Possibility691 | Suns

2 | 4 hours ago

I agree with this for sure. Other Suns fans love to give Booker most of the credit, but to me it was obvious that CP3 is what really elevated those Suns teams a few years ago, he even got Ayton to live up to his potential for a bit. He turned every third string center we got into a constant lob threat. He got Mikal playing like a DPOY candidate. Then the new owner got him swapped out for Bradley Beal and the team fell apart.

Also, while he was never able to raise a team’s ceiling enough to win a championship, I think his mentorship is the ultimate ceiling raiser for young players’ potential. Last year’s MVP and DPOY, who are arguably the two best players in the NBA right now, both show regular flashes of CP3’s influence.

BananaRepublic_BR | Spurs

152 | 11 hours ago

Spurs never won fewer than 50 games when Tim Duncan was on the team. That’s got to be a feather in his floor raising cap.

Relatively_Cool | Lakers

66 | 9 hours ago

I think being on a world class organization with a HOF coach and supporting cast might have more to do with that.

Single-Purpose-7608

20 | 8 hours ago

Absolutely.

How many all time great players get to say they started their career with David Robinson, played the body of their career with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, and ended their career wtih Kawhi Leonard?

Tim Duncan, as great as he is, has arguably the best support of all time.

BIPOC_Ally

19 | 10 hours ago

2017 Spurs won 61 games after Duncan retired lol

lets not act like he didn’t have great supporting casts and co-stars

[deleted]

8 | 11 hours ago

[removed]

that_other_friend-

2 | 9 hours ago

Bird wouldn’t pay any Jokic teammate

cubs223425 | Bulls

12 | 9 hours ago

But what was the worst roster he played with at that time? He was pretty much always playing with other All-Stars and Hall Of Famers.

Soshi101 | Celtics [BOS] Derrick White

16 | 8 hours ago

2003, no second star and everyone else on the roster was basically a role player. Parker was a second-year, Manu was a rookie, DRob was old (last season), Kevin Willis was old, Bowen was a defensive specialist, Stephen Jackson came off the bench, etc.

They still beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers and the Dirk, Nash, Finley Mavs on their way to a championship.

wheelers | Spurs

5 | 5 hours ago

This. KG was never managing that carry job.

Actuary41 | Mavericks

1 | 4 hours ago

Dirk was hurt in the series. Mavs took game 1. If they could keep the lead safe from Steve Kerr and force a game 7 and dirk came back… and Nelly let him play… oh what could have been. 😢. And i agree with you. Duncan was that amazing.

SloppyFatBoy | Lakers

11 | 10 hours ago

What happened in the 2004 Olympics?

guyute2588 | Knicks

0 | 9 hours ago

His ability to raise a floor was outweighed by

A team constructed with very little consideration for a basketball game.

2, Lots of roster changes in the run up meant very little practice time to fix the problem above.

Everyone on the team hated the coach

japacego

1 | 30 minutes ago

Didn’t the spurs still have a winning record without Duncan during his time?

StrategyTop7612 | Clippers

78 | 11 hours ago

James Harden is a top 5 floor raiser of all time

WebFantastic9076

100 | 11 hours ago

Floor: playoffs
Ceiling: playoffs

scullytaco

20 | 10 hours ago

He carried absolute bums to the playoffs year after year.

j1h15233 | HOU

5 | 8 hours ago

And then he was an absolute bum in the playoffs year after year

im_coolest | MIA

13 | 5 hours ago

idk man I’m a Harden hater but he didn’t exactly roll over against GSW when they were one of the greatest teams in NBA history. I’d actually say that two of those series were the toughest challenges GSW ever faced.

ugotnorizzatall

2 | 2 hours ago

he took more games off of those warriors games than LeBron James and Kyrie did…did but gets no credit

if guys hit a few threes they actually beat the fucking KD warriors it’s so crazy to think how close they were

VanWesley

6 | 8 hours ago

Prime Harden was a walking playoff berth. Won’t get you much further once you get there, but he’ll get you there no matter what, with a pretty decent seeding too.

Donaldtell0

9 | 6 hours ago

“Won’t get you much further” This is true if we just completely disregard the fact he took arguably the beat team of all time to a hard fought game 7 in the conference finals. People acting like he dips round 1 every playoffs.

ugotnorizzatall

3 | 2 hours ago

right people put him in the same category as Tracy McGrady it’s so disrespectful… these new basketball kids have no way to look at nuance in their stupid brains

either you win rings and you’re great or you lose and you’re not good at all … fucking idiots

Steph Curry comes along all of a sudden anyone who’s not ELITE at shooting couldn’t shoot.,…couldn’t score well

apparently Michael Jordan couldn’t play today cuz he couldn’t shoot threes.. “magic Johnson would be so easy to guard just going to the screen he couldn’t shoot”

20 years ago now Iverson wasn’t shit because “oh my God look at the efficiency oh my God he didn’t win a ring”.. :oh my God Carmelo was ass all he could do is score’… as if any team had a CHANCE to even get to the finals between 2011 and 2017 wen LeBron teamed up

as if Kobe wasn’t hitting ridiculously tough shots in the ‘09 Western conference finals.. Carmelo and those guys were playing good defense they had a hand up Kobe was just Kobe nothing more you can do when an all-time player is in his prime and unstoppable… but now now he just gets reduced to oh no rings nothing mattered

can’t stand this new discourse these people are stupid

TheDeceiver77

1 | an hour ago

Harden took the 2015 rockets to the western conference finals with terry and prigioni as point guards… and people only talk about how bad he was at the last game but he literally took bums with him to the conference finals

EpicCyclops | Trail Blazers

59 | 11 hours ago

I’m going to throw a wild card in their for floor raiser and say Bill Russell. His teams had a floor of NBA champion with him being a player coach for many of those championships.

The league is definitely more competitive now, and I think LeBron is still my overall pick for floor raiser, but Bill Russell deserves a mention here.

Snarglefrazzle

3 | 3 hours ago

I’d put him at even more of a ceiling raiser. Yes, he took bad teams and made them great, but his skillset of giving you an A+ defence no matter who else is out there turns teambuilding into an exercise in picking up talented offence. If you don’t give Bill some guys who can put the ball in the hoop, he’s not going to carry that end for you as well in the same way that LeBron, Harden, or Luka can.

Unrelated, but this thread now has me wanting a Curry + Russell teamup

darkeyesacks

2 | an hour ago

You’ve got me trippin’ on time travel Russell what ifs. Not that these pairings will necesarily be great, just really curious how the dynamics would’ve worked out:

Twin towers defensive generals Russell + Garnett?

Russell + point god floor general CP3?

Can Russell calm down MJ?

Snarglefrazzle

1 | 17 minutes ago

Russell and Wemby play defence and fire outlet passes to nine MPJ clones and tell ‘em to cheat for offence

_chadwell_ | Lakers

1 | 2 hours ago

Tbf he did have multiple All NBA teammates for most of his championship runs.

Every time LeBron had one in the first 20 years of his career he made the Finals at a minimum. And LBJ never had two.

Plies- | Celtics

1 | an hour ago

One day we will kill this myth and that day will be amazing.

The Celtics had the best defenses of all time relative to league average. I can promise you that Sam Jones (a rare Russell teammate to be a HOFer on his own merit) was not the reason for that. He elevated people to be all star/all nba because he caused them to win so much.

Also by virtue of there being less teams they were more good players on each team, it also meant they he was consistently playing the other elite bigs of his time more often. For example, he played rookie Wilt Chamberlain 12 times in the regular season.

If you look at the composition of which teams had the most all stars, the Celtics were not overly stacked compared to other teams.

_chadwell_ | Lakers

1 | an hour ago

Sorry which part of my post do you view as a “myth”?

Otherwise_Gur_1612

1 | 42 minutes ago

It’s not even a myth so much as people not understanding basic math. If there’s 8 teams in the league and 10 All NBA spots, you’re 100% guaranteed to have multiple players from the same team make All NBA. And since players on bad teams don’t win league honors, those 10 All NBA slots were really only getting divided between 3 or 4 teams. It would be weirder if Russell didn’t play with multiple All NBA teammates every year given how good the Celtics were and how All NBA voting works

Soft-Run-3577

1 | 2 hours ago

He doesn’t because his era uniquely benefited centers because when everyone is a bricklayer, blocking the few buckets remaining is huge. The reason people don’t have Russell level defensive impact isn’t just Russell was good, it’s because it’s literally no longer humanly possible because players don’t suck.

volvogiff7kmmr

43 | 11 hours ago

Floor raiser - Lebron
Ceiling raiser - Jordan

/thread

Ok_Pineapple_Num | Warriors

30 | 11 hours ago

I agree on Lebron for floor raiser, but would argue Steph for ceiling raiser.

LightningDawgg | Timberwolves

10 | 11 hours ago

Why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?

gimme_the_light | Celtics

3 | 10 hours ago

The roof is the ceiling

likewoahitsaj | Bucks

35 | 4 hours ago

LeBron James took Boobie Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic to the nba finals

He’s the most obvious best floor raiser of all time

Warm-Extension5873

4 | 3 hours ago

The disrespect to Ira Newble

Confident_Birthday_7

22 | 11 hours ago

Steph is the greatest ceiling raiser. Cp3 or LeBron is the best floor raiser

larrylegend33goat | Timberwolves

21 | 10 hours ago

Hard to go past Bill Russell for utilising his teammates and winning. Celtics had a losing season the year before he joined, the year after he retired, and in total games he missed. He essentially transformed a sub 500 team to winning 11 championships in 13 years. That is a lot of floor and ceiling raising

nex_eden

5 | 7 hours ago

my favourite russell stat is that the celtics had the 6th (of 8) best defensive rating the year before his arrival, the best every year but one (2nd in his penultimate season, then back to 1st) for his entire career, then dropped to ⁸⁄₁₄ after he retired

Cokes311

14 | 10 hours ago

i mean, all you have to do is start listing names from one nba finals team to answer the best floor raiser question

larry hughes
drew gooden
eric snow
donyell marshall
anderson varejao
zydrunas ilgauskas
boobie gibson

Luunacyy | Pacers

6 | 3 hours ago

Big Z wasn’t bad and would have contributed to Heat in 10s if he was a bit younger. Overall I agree though. I can’t think of any other team had no business of being dragged to finals if not for LeBron. AI fanboys are crazy. 2001 Sixers are nowhere close. It’s one of the best team you could construct for AI playstyle and personality. And they both honestly delivered as good as they could. LeBron is just simply next level.

oochiewallyWallyserb | Knicks

12 | 10 hours ago

Thibs is the ultimate floor raiser.

BlackSheepComeHome14 | Timberwolves

16 | 10 hours ago

Floor raiser would be Lebron 07, might be the worst finals team in NBA history

cubs223425 | Bulls

15 | 9 hours ago

Excluding each Finals team’s best player, who would even contend for a worse starting 4 than that team?

C - Zydrunas Ilgauskas

PF - Drew Gooden

SF - LeBron James

SG - Sasha Pavlovic

PG - Larry Hughes/Daniel Gibson

Between the 5 non-LeBron players who started for CLE that series, they had a combined 2 ASG appearances in their careers (both Ilgauskas).

geekstone | LAL

1 | 5 hours ago

He did that at 22 in his 4th year in the league.

IAmNotKevinDurant_35 | GSW

11 | 9 hours ago

Not the greatest, but Draymond Green is up there with the best ceiling raisers among guys who aren’t all time superstars. When I think ceiling raisers, I usually don’t think of superstars.

Floor raisers though it probably has to be Lebron. Only the true all timers are really floor raisers. Really those type of players are both floor and ceiling raisers

UBKUBK

2 | 3 hours ago

Rodman is similar to Green. A team with superstars can always use rebounding and defense from someone who does not need the ball on offense.

No-Inside2846 | Thunder

9 | 10 hours ago

Westbrook

Maximum-Lifeguard-41

1 | 8 hours ago

Would
Work if cp3 did not so much better

Green-Discussion74

7 | 11 hours ago

timothy duncan floor raiser

Frosty_Salamander_94

8 | 10 hours ago

Since these concepts are typically used offensively…

offense:

floor raiser - Jokic

ceiling raiser - Curry

But in the sense of total value added in floor-raising and ceiling-raising situations, due to defensive gaps, it’s probably:

overall:

floor raiser - LeBron

ceiling raiser - Jordan

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

8 | 10 hours ago

The best floor raiser of all time is cp3, he made every single team he went to better and is on each of their best regular season teams

SnooChipmunks4208

3 | 9 hours ago

He is a part of three franchises (hornets, clippers, suns) all time winningest teams.

TomatoSecure192 | Bulls

2 | 6 hours ago

And rockets in 2018. The only year he was missing in his prime was being on okc’s all time wins record

CycleR16

8 | 11 hours ago

My goat, Jimmy G Buckets qualifies for both

TWAndrewz | Nuggets

6 | 10 hours ago

Jokic has to be one of the best floor raisers out there.

1521 | Trail Blazers

5 | 11 hours ago

Floor raiser - Joker
Ceiling raiser- Jordan

benzfriendz1993

6 | 8 hours ago

How many finals did lebron lead a team to?

Yeah that has to be the only answer for floor raiser. Like without a doubt.

Left_Astronaut90

4 | 10 hours ago

Floor Raiser: Moses Malone. He dragged a Houston team to the finals (where they lost to Larry’s Celtics). Without Moses, I don’t think that team would have even made the playoffs. Then he took a Sixers team that kept falling short to a championship (sweeping the showtime Lakers).

saints21

3 | 10 hours ago

LeBron for floor and Jordan for ceiling.

Single-Purpose-7608

3 | 8 hours ago

Best floor raiser: Lebron James

Best Ceiling Raiser: Steph Curry

steponmemarasov

4 | 5 hours ago

Its LeBron for both. He takes terrible teams to the finals (2007 and 2018 Cavs) and makes guys on his team look like better players than they actually are. If you look, theres probably at least 10 guys who he made look good while playing with, then fell off once they were separated.

HotOatmeal420

1 | 11 hours ago

Floor: LeBron James Senior

Ceiling: King James

Un4go10

2 | 6 hours ago

Luka is the best floor raiser!

EaseProfessional8113

2 | 6 hours ago

Jason Kidd and the Nets

redxlillard | Lakers

2 | 3 hours ago

Honestly you could say lebron is the greatest floor raiser and Jordan was the greatest ceiling raiser and the goat conversation is a debate on which one is more valuable

busche916 | Pacers

2 | an hour ago

LeBron is clearly the greatest floor raiser. Elite PGs like Chris Paul and Steve Nash could elevate their teammates by always making sure guys had the most advantageous looks, but Bron had that plus the ability to take over a game on both ends of the court with his size/speed/IQ.

sharkflood | Supersonics

1 | 10 minutes ago

Floor raiser - LeBron

Ceiling raiser - MJ

MagnetoWasRight24

1 | 11 hours ago

I never think about it like that, the way I see it is who’s good at elevating role players and who’s good at elevating stars/borderline stars?

Like for example, Lebron was great at elevating role players but had no positive impact on stars. Meanwhile, Kobe was good at elevating role players (good but nowhere near as good as Lebron) but way better than Lebron at elevating stars/borderline stars.

Silly_Individual4056 | Warriors

1 | 10 hours ago

Wasn’t there just a post in here about Steve Nash’s impact numbers on other players being insane? Feels like he should be getting mentions if CP3 is. And Chef, while able to raise some floors, is really the guy you want if you already have a team and a star.

TouchMint | Nets

1 | 10 hours ago

Chris Paul.

cantclimbatree | Kings

1 | 10 hours ago

Isn’t this just asking who the GOAT is?

Confident_Birthday_7

1 | 7 hours ago

No

Good-Courage2060

1 | 10 hours ago

Not up there with the all times but in this generation Donovan Mitchell is a pretty great floor raiser. Has made the playoffs every year and normally as a top 4 seed. Caps your ceiling though

TerrySaucer69 | Spurs

1 | 10 hours ago

Floor raisers are ball dominant guys and passers.
Ceiling raisers are off ball guys.

So, MJ and LeBron, vs KD and Steph.

Confident_Birthday_7

1 | 7 hours ago

Great way to look at it.

Dfrmdabeach700

1 | 9 hours ago

Lebron James or Steve Nash

guzzler_bennett_jr

1 | 9 hours ago

Muggsy Bogues and Victor Wembanyama, respectively

Soup3rTROOP3R

1 | 9 hours ago

Have to say Jrue Holliday is a huge floor raiser. Brings up every team he’s on with his defense and leadership.

mymentor79

1 | 9 hours ago

So LeBron’s career has been one of lifting teams, then leaving those teams who dropped like a stone while he elevated the new team he went to.

He’d be pretty hard to beat as a floor raiser, or a ceiling raiser. I think prime Shaq might have a case as ceiling raiser, though.

kmsplayer69

1 | 9 hours ago

If you consider floor raisers to be players that function as systems and ceiling raisers to be players functioning within a system then:

Chris Paul is the greatest floor raiser of all time, without a question; the man is a magician.

Ceiling raisers get a bit tricky depending on what you value, but I think the triumvirate of ceiling raisers are KD, LeBron, and Draymond. All 3 can join any existing system and take them up another level, they’re the greatest pnp players of all time. Honorable mention goes out to PG13.

Luunacyy | Pacers

1 | 3 hours ago

It’s very debatable. It depends what you value more: peak or longevity. Talking about magic, I am taking Nash raising Suns. Kidd is also underrated for what he’s done with Nets. All 3 are amazing though.

Western_Bid_2656

1 | 8 hours ago

Jason Kid. Magic. Lebron. Nash. Jordan. Curry.

Gontofinddad

1 | 8 hours ago

LeBron and Jordan, respectively.

Content-Lie8133

1 | 7 hours ago

Chris Paul…

Aniketos33 | Thunder

1 | 6 hours ago

In other words, who is goodest?

MachiavelliOsiris

1 | 6 hours ago

LeBron floor, Magic or
MJ for ceiling.

HonkeyKong66

1 | 6 hours ago

Jason Kidd. Do we not remember those Nets teams that he took to the Finals? Not once, but twice.

Aesut | Trail Blazers

1 | 6 hours ago

Chris Paul

2Basketball2Poorious | Pelicans

1 | 6 hours ago

Best floor raiser is probably your choice of legendary point guard/playmaker, and best ceiling raiser is probably your choice of legendary scorer

NeverNotOnceEver | Warriors

1 | 6 hours ago

I’m n the modern NBA, CP3

leogodin217 | Celtics

1 | 5 hours ago

Robert Horry has to be the greatest ceiling raiser ever, right? Takes a bunch of stars and gives them championships. /s

linmusclan

1 | 5 hours ago

CP3 is the best floor raiser and LeBron is the best ceiling raiser.

Outside of Paul’s last 3 years, you put him on a team and you have a really good playoff team. You put a younger LeBron (especially 2010’s LeBron) and you have a chance at the title.

pan21897

1 | 5 hours ago

Ceiling raiser is LeBron.

Floor raiser is CP3

lazydictionary | Celtics

1 | 5 hours ago

Dennis Rodman

The Case for Dennis Rodman

A 12 part essay that Rodman might be the most impactful player to ever exist.

AirplaneNeckCushion

1 | 5 hours ago

Diddy James is the answer for both

Diqt | Toronto Huskies

1 | 4 hours ago

Shaq or Duncan either way

Canesjags4life | Heat

1 | 3 hours ago

Floor raiser gotta be 05 Steve Nash, probably 2018 LeBron though.

Ceiling either LeBron, Magic, or Steph. Voltron Warriors were crazy because of Steph. Showtime Lakers winning the title Magic rookie season. LeBron 3-1 comeback

TurbulentJudge1000

1 | 3 hours ago

Hakeem Olajuwon won a title with no one else averaging 15 ppg in 1994. Jason Kidd with the Nets went from basement dwellers to back to back NBA finalists.

Cassandrae_Gemini | Slovenia

1 | 3 hours ago

Ceiling raiser has got to be Jordan. Dude never lost a finals. Highest playoff PPG average of all time.

OnePieceAce | Timberwolves

1 | 3 hours ago

Jason Kidd for floor raiser

enad58 | MIL

1 | 3 hours ago

With no other major changes besides drafting Bob Dandridge, a rookie Kareem took the Bucks from 27 wins to 56 wins. +29 wins as a rookie is the definition of floor raiser.

ljrubbo | Nuggets

1 | 3 hours ago

Half the reason the Nuggets are in such a bad spot right now is that C+ to B- tier player look phenomenal alongside Jokic so they get massively overpaid and proceed to be mid at best elsewhere. Guys like Jeremi Grant and Bruce Brown got career and life altering contracts after playing with Jokic. And my guess is the Watson is going to keep the trend.

zggystardust71 | Clippers

1 | 2 hours ago

I’d agree with that. I’d also say Gordon was the guy who raised their ceiling to a championship level.

Doyce_7

1 | 3 hours ago

Idk if I would even say he’s the best floor raiser of all time but he has to be in the conversation. Dirk Nowitzki. Just look at the roster he usually had around him in absolutely stacked Western Conferences and he always had them right there near the top. Prime Dirk was 50 wins almost by himself

CupCharming4931 | Knicks

1 | 2 hours ago

Jordan. Jordan.

jacksleepshere

1 | 2 hours ago

Ceiling raiser is Curry, floor raiser is Duncan

International-Ad2501

1 | an hour ago

I think lebron is the answer to both.

Got a team of absolut bums? Mo williams your best player? Add Lebron boom conference finals and finals appearances. Got a team with a ton of talent? Finals appearance or championship. The only years Lebron teams didn’t make the playoffs at least were when he had injurie issues. The lakers teams that didn’t make the finals had their top 2 options not named Lebron out or hobbled for the playoffs and were all well after his prime.

ColoradoRocket3

1 | an hour ago

Jokic certainly is a floor raiser.

cdskip | Pistons

1 | an hour ago

The ceiling-raiser is a tough one, because it’s going to be team-dependent.

Some good teams would benefit the most from a defensive presence, for instance. Dennis Rodman was a phenomenal ceiling-raiser for the Bulls in their second threepeat, bringing defense and rebounding. But there are other good teams that he wouldn’t have been quite so much of a help to.

A tremendous shooter will help anyone, particularly if they’re good both on and off ball, so Curry is a great answer. But depending on the team, they might need the defense more.

But I think those are the two big archetypes that can help anyone. Defensive stopper and shooter.

highkickthrutheroof

1 | an hour ago

Jamal Murray Nikola Jokic lol

Jok makes Nuggets relevent, Murray makes them championship contenders when he’s playing at his absolute apex

EPalmighty | Hawks

1 | 44 minutes ago

Alex Caruso is a great floor raiser

felarans0mekuti | Mavericks

1 | 17 minutes ago

Dirk should be listed here, went like 12 seasons in a row of 50+ wins

MrBigWaffles | Lakers

0 | 11 hours ago

Floor raiser - LeBron maybe even CP3

Ceiling raiser - Kawhi Leonard, LeBron

jewkidontheblock | Kings

0 | 11 hours ago

Floor: agree with the lebron and CP3 answers. Would also throw Dame in there

Ceiling: Jordan. In the modern NBA, Kawhi

Who is the best floor raiser ever and who is the best ceiling raiser ever? In other words, who is the best ever at carrying weak rosters and who is the best ever at raising a team’s maximum potential?