idk, Haliburton seems to be doing fine. I think pass first but can’t shoot is a better description

Why draft a Guard who only averaged 10 ppg and 8 apg when you can only draft a guard who averaged 16 ppg and 7 apg

They are very desirable, it’s just that you need to be able to shoot and defend first and foremost unless you have outlier ability 

I would say “non-shooting” pass first guard. Those Anthony Carter types. If you’re just going to initiate offence and isn’t a real threat scoring, you better bomb it if the ball is kicked back to you.

Idea if they can shoot the three and you have other high scoring.

But limited offensive game/pass first point guards, are backups at best

I think there will always be room for a Nash or CP3 kind of guy, but the Andre Millers and Mark Jackson’s not so much. Depends on if pass first is a personal philosophy or if the player is pass first because they sure as hell can’t put it in the basket.

Pass-only, not pass-first.

If you aren’t any sort of scoring threat, teams will home in on your passing targets instead of you. And if you can’t defend, you become even worse.

Haliburton isn’t a great defender, but he can shoot at a good level & score if needed to. He can also raise his volume without sacrificing a whole lot of efficiency.

Faried was also 6’7, which didn’t help and would get replaced by Millsap

They still exist, they’re just called centers now. 6’7-6’10 guys who just grab boards, hustle, and set screens.

Disagree, Moussa Diabate was one of the most valuable role players in the league last season.

Reason why guys like Faried would still be valuable is that there is so much more shooting in the league now, especially stretch 5s that you can play next to a non-shooting hustle big and get away with it

Robert Williams III a recent example

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Cam Thomas

Microwave scoring guards is the term for these players. These players are only useful in a condensed role. If you have to rely on them to do more than just score or to be a primary option at the end of games it’s normally a bad thing. This is why i was so happy the heat finally got rid of tyler this offseason, norm was no different either. Probably worse overall since he has some of worst tunnel vision in the league.

Ahh, the Jamal Crawford/Lou Williams special. Not winning basketball, but probably the most entertaining archetype of players.

That was Jordan Clarkson until this past post-season when he re-invented his game and became a plus defender. Dude made a career becoming the 6th man of a bench that can single handedly go on a tear but had no other dimensions to his game. Glad to see him adapt to a new role that actually fits the current game

Ben Mathurin

Zach LaVine

I’d take it a step further and say #1 option SGs as a whole are fading out. Everyone’s said the undersized point guard is the hardest to build around, but I think it’s actually shooting guards.

Even if they are elite scorers and not just shot chuckers, they still provide the least value out of any position. If they had ball handling and lead playmaker skills, they would be a 1. If they had the size to be a versatile defender and rebounder, they’d be a 3. Pure shooting guards unfortunately just don’t really do anything that other positions don’t also do nowadays

Well it’s also pretty predictable especially in the playoffs

Also doesn’t help DeMar is ball-dominant and a liability on defense

When Demar was on the Spurs I saw so many plays where he would pass up a wide open 3, take a single dribble side step just to end up with his foot on the line, then hit a 23’ 2-pointer. 🤦‍♂️

They lose half a step and it’s joever. Ask me how I know.

I don’t think there’ll be another IT, Nate Robinson, Ty Lawson, etc.

I think we will see a resurgence with contracts normalizing. You can’t just overpay for guys to fit with around a unicorn player anymore. It’s going to be much easier to build teams with traditional positions because those type of players will be more abundant and easier to acquire.

You are going to need pg’s who can run a consistent offense to maximize all the players on the floor, and smaller guards do have the advantage of being able to manipulate defenses with tighter handles vs a wing or big handling the ball.

You need to be an insane athlete. When I watched Harper-Castle in the POs I was just thinking on just how fucking strong you need to be to deal with these guys. If you’re a small guy that relies just on burst and skill, they eat you alive.

I guess maybe if Trae young and Fred vanvleet have a bounce back season and reed Shepard gets a chance

To even get in the league at that size you gotta have elite athleticism and quickness

Yet they keep getting drafted high….

I really miss watching shorter, wide bodied power forwards who mix bully ball with smooth footwork in the post.

Z-Bo could shoot at the mid-range (and also started shooting more 3s at the end of his career) but he wasn’t that efficient and would still get exposed due to speed

Eh KAT is approaching 80% Jokic imo and he was vital in the Knicks title run.

I mean he definitely shot better when he won the MVP than at the tail end of his career. His hands are absolutely fucked now.

I know the guard part is doing the heavy lifting, but Giannis is a perpetual MVP candidate and terrible from 3.

Maybe Cade someday? He’s not awful from 3, but he’s below average.

Averaging a 30 point triple double would put any player into MVP conversations.

Ideal outcome Ja Morant might be fighting for MVPs right now who knows.

Slashing guards definitely can still do it. not as common but special players def have a shot. Guys like D-wade, Ja, Rose, etc could theoretically be good enough to get there still. Unfortunately its the archetype with the worst shelf life for a player.

No, we’ve seen Guards be compared to players like Russ, Rose, etc. and many times they don’t do well

No, one of the reasons his career declined badly is that the NBA was evolving and he couldn’t catch up

Lmao no. He could barely move laterally at the best of times. He would get picked apart with the amount of high pick and rolls teams use now.

From what I remember of watching the Pacers back then, his whole thing was using the verticality rule to pressure shots. Most bigs would either just put their hands up or jump and chase the block. He was the first I remember who would consistently jump straight up to pressure shots not really tryna block then, and take the contact with the shooter which wasn’t a foul when done right. Give the man props for digging into the rule book and giving coaches a great example of how to legally apply pressure on the shooter in midair, but any more and I think we’re remembering him as better than he was imo

Defensively he would be fine. Would have to be protected on a lot of matchups and disappear on some PO’s series, but he would survive. But the guy was as slow on offense, and this was a drag. Those turtle paced rolls and ugly hooks will kill any offensive rhythm

Thrived no, been a starter, yes. Ayton still gets PT.

explain

Yeah but never going to win with one unless Your center is on the same offensive level as Jokic

Queen will definitely be there. Like, your only argument for being this kind of player in the NBA is to be Jokić-tier on offense. Anything less, and I don’t see the value.

Sabonis lead the league in rebounding for three years in a row, and scored 19 points a game shooting about .600. I don’t think he quite fits that idea.

Elite 3pt shooters, even if thats their only skill, are still valuable in the modern NBA.

Kyle Korver was still getting like 20 mpg in 2019 and things haven’t changed _that_ much since then.

Kyle Korver and Jason Kapono would be obsolete if they played today. Their only NBA skill is shooting.

In a league with Kennard, Duncan Robinson, Strus, Huerter, etc. getting real playing time I think this is a bad take

Jason Kapono my 3 pt 🐐 on NBA 2K10 lmao

Duncan Robinson still getting paid, max strus, old klay Thompson they are all pretty much just three point specialists

Was it Chuck Hayes you’re thinking of?

Maybe Isaiah Stewart is the closest

Jaylen Brown?

I remember wings who were average at both used to be called 3&D

this isn’t true at all

Nah a rim running big who can anchor a defense will always be useful.

What always gets left out of the 3 point revolution talk was that it wasn’t just about shooting 3s, it was about creating an offense that took the most efficient shots. This meant a lot more 3s but also using the space that creates to take a bunch of shots at the rim. If anything this offeseason showed how valuable bigs are with teams dramatically overpaying to add centers

Huh…? Not at all. Unathletic, unskilled big guys who can’t do anything but stand under the rim aren’t in fashion anymore, that’s true…

Not really, if anything bigs are more important now than they been in a long time.

But you can’t be a 6-7 foot stiff who can’t do anything unless there close to the rim.