Russell Westbrook: “Humbly speaking, I’m the best rebounding guard ever.”
That is facts
He ain’t get 3 straight triple double seasons for nothing
With a 75% win percentage when he gets one
what is his win % in playoffs with triple double
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/russell-westbrook-winning-percentage-in-playoffs-when-he-has-a-triple-double
50%, +82 not terrible but we both know theres more factors then just that in the playoffs where teams literally plan for you
Westbrook is arguably the best rebounding guard, but it’s undeniable that his team was gifting him rebounds during his triple double years.
The easiest way to see this is with opponents’ free throws. Defensive rebounds on free throws are the easiest rebounds, as they’re almost always uncontested.
Westbrook and Adams rebounds on free throws from 2017-2019:
Houston wouldn’t let Russ take those rebounds, and he didn’t have a triple double that season. But Washington did. He led the league in defensive rebounds on free throws again in 2021, and he again put up a triple double.
Westbrook had 106 defensive rebounds on free throws in his first 8 seasons. Suddenly, he had 98 in 2017.
Yeah i remember people talking about Adam’s gifting him a ton of rebounds.
Thanks for the breakdown
Just adds legacy points to Adams, IMO. Will be pretty bummed when he eventually retires
11 offensive boards on free throws is insane. That’s 11 more than I would expect a guard to get in that time frame
That’s over a 3-year span.
6’1 Eric Bledsoe also had 11 over that 3 year span.
I feel like Bledsoe was also a very good rebounder.
At the time I remember being annoyed with how these padded stats inflated some people’s view of him, but I’ve come to think of those Westbrook years as sort of similar to how Kobe’s last game went, but stretched over several seasons. It would be objectively true to say he was being a ball hog but everyone on the team and all the fans watching wanted that, celebrated it, and rallied behind it. It made the season/game memorable for neutral fans as well.
In terms of being the best rebounding guard ever, it sounds like an impressive superlative but it’s really kind of low impact and not a thing anyone else is competing for. It’s probably Westbrook but also the ability to rebound as a guard is not really a distinguishing factor for deciding which ones are better or how good they are. If they all somehow averaged the same low number, I don’t think it would actually change how any of them rank.
Don’t tell Josh Hart that rebounding isn’t a valuable skill for guards.
Hart’s contested rebounding % is significantly higher than Westbrook’s
Hart is fighting for boards while Westbrook is collecting ones that someone else is boxing out for
At that time, even if gifted rebounds, it was the better play since Westbrook can push the floor faster than having Adams or anyone look for him to push.
As you can see that 270 helped push the floor while Adam’s 63 ORB was to clean up. It worked out.
As you can see that 270 helped push the floor
This is a claim that requires evidence. It’s not at all clear that letting Westbrook get rebounds on free throws helped anything.
Defensive rebounds on free throws are easy because the offensive team almost always drops back. Those types of plays very rarely lead to transition possessions.
When Westbrook hauls in a rebound, the Thunder’s pace cranks up, and the team shoots a higher effective field goal percentage (55.3 percent) than when he doesn’t grab the board (50.3). One of the Thunder’s primary struggles this season is in the half court, but they remain lethal in transition. The Thunder’s best path to transition is getting the ball in Westbrook’s hands as quickly as possible.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18240823/how-russell-westbrook-chasing-triple-doubles-helps-oklahoma-city-thunder
except OKC ranked very poor in transition efficiency
There’s no transition on missed free throws, which is what people are specifically talking about.
I love how Thunder fans are still trying to push this awful argument.
An outlet pass moves significantly quicker. Immediately disregard anyone trying to say this is actually the correct play. Insanely bad take.
Tbh I can see both sides.
On the one hand, the ball moves much faster than the player, so in theory if you have someone you can outlet to, that’s going to be optimal to get down the floor the fastest. And a guy like Westbrook, who is very fast, would be ideal to receive the pass.
On the other hand though, Westbrook was one of the most dangerous downhill transition players in his prime, so him quickly pushing the ball creates an immediate threat. And he could make the decision to throw an outlet pass himself, if he wanted. They want the ball in his hands anyway, so you could say Adams getting the rebound just to pass it to Westbrook is only adding an extra step, especially if Westbrook isn’t the type of player to want to leak out in transition off of a free throw.
I’m of the opinion Adams getting the rebound is better, but I don’t think it’s nonsensical what they did.
A thrown ball moves faster then a human.
If he outlets himself correctly he can start a break
I mean Steven Adam’s was gift wrapping a lot of those tbf
Still averaged a triple double on the Wizards, he actually had his highest rebounds per game with them in his career.
How does that apply to Steven Adams though? Adams averaged more rebounds after leaving OKC with less minutes played. I don’t think anyone is saying Adams single handedly set upWestbrook to get rebounds. It’s more like the game plan for the Thunder and the Wizards those years was to cater around Westbrook getting the boards. Look at the wizards roster. It’s not a surprise he got all those boards.
True but Adam’s knew that’s just how Russ got into rhythm,
I’m sure if Adam’s wasn’t there he’ll still average around 8-9 boards a game which is still elite For a guard
His career high season for rebounds per game is 11.5 on the Wizards without Steven Adams lol
That too forgot to mention that.
It’s not Steven Adams. It’s that the Thunder and the Wizards game planned around letting Westbrook get the easier rebounds so he can push the pace.
i dont remember oscar waving kareem off so he can get the rebound for triple double
He definitely is.. J Kidd up there too
Back in the day he had to be. Those Nets teams he was dragging to the Finals had absolute stiffs for big men outside of KMart
To be fair they did address that in 02-03 and brought in Mutumbo…who had a nagging wrist injury and only played 24 games. Jason Collins and the A-Train Aaron Williams were serviceable in his place but combined for 8 boards per game which just isn’t what you should get from the center position. K-Mart carried us and RJ was good for 6 a game too just like Kidd
Shaq really gave a lot of big men opportunities that they might not have been able to get without him existing. Every team needed at least 3 bodies to throw 18 fouls at shaq. Why how Mourning played us always makes me hate him, we legit needed a center to go back to the finals and actually have a chance
Obligatory fuck Alonzo Mourning
Kidd is a very underrated rebounder fs
It’s one of the things he’s best known for, not sure underrated is the word. Maybe underappreciated
JKidd is underrated everything
lol truth, many people on this sub never got to see Kidd play
Or just remember him from the 2011 Mavs when he was an almost entirely different player
Kidd vs Grant Hill RoY debates and hyperbole would have been wild in here
Underrated wife abuser for sure
Very underrated defender too
Rondo honorable mention
Rondo would have games where he would finish with 10 points, 18 rebounds, 16 assists. Absolutely surreal to see that as a kid, one of the best point guards of his generation. Hall of Very Good for sure.
His career high in rebounds is 17, but I get your point.
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He’s the original for the position but for the modern era it’s Westbrook
Especially considering there was less 3s being shot which means less long rebounds and all bigger stronger guys played in that era. But hey that’s why we really can’t compare eras, either way you look at it Russ is one of the best rebounding guards ever but you can rarely ever say who is truly the best at something. Except Curry, he’s hands down the best shooter ever lol
Josh Hart has catapulted himself into the conversation honestly
Not only that, I’d say he is the most athletic PG ever as well. D Rose and John Wall were close but didn’t have the strength that Russ did.
And more than that, unlike Rose and Wall (and really all other hyper-athletic small guards like Steve Francis and Ja Morant) Russ kept relatively injury-free and maintained terrific athleticism late into his career.
Fuck Patrick Beverly.
With the UTMOST disrespect. Then, now, forever: FUCK Patrick Beverley.
Mavs fan checking in, fuck pat bev
His first 5 seasons he played every game. Then the 6th season and Patrick Beverly happened. And well I expect that to be talked about a lot over the next couple days lol.
Even if he was broken ain’t no way Brodie would let that show him down. I loved his love for just playing the game and trying your best each and every time.
You never had to ask “did Russ give us our moneys worth?” Every game he just wanted to compete with the best.
Going to miss him.
bro literally played the remainder of that pat bev injury game on his torn right meniscus. one of the coldest things i’ve ever seen, maybe not a good decision recovery-wise ofc but nobody can say that russ ever left the court without having given 1000%
Russ was very dynamic. But Rose was such a sight to see too. He was moving his body and different angles mid air. But yah Russ was freakishly strong.
That’s why his number one defense move I recall was the poke away from a post player. Takes a lot to be posted but more to get the poke on the ball after a bump.
Yeah, I’m not saying it’s definitely not true, but I also won’t say Westbrook is absolutely the answer here, because Rose was different.
If you subscribe to the philosophy that I see a lot that just “athleticism equals jump high and dunk,” then sure. But things like balance and quickness are also athleticism, and Rose was unreal in those regards..
I think the biggest thing about this comparison is that Russ is somewhat comparable in the aspects Rose is strongest in and out does him significantly in the places he’s strong at. Even if you think Rose had the best acceleration and change of direction in the league, Russ in his prime is up there with him. The issue is when you deviate from that and start talking strength/vertical Rose isn’t really matching up as well. Prime DRose might be a better player than Westbrook although I think it’s close to a wash but if we’re talking straight athleticism gimme Westbrook. Almost as shifty/fast (maybe faster in full court transition) but way stronger:
Rose was smoother and Russ was a chaotic explosion.
Smoother in everything except his landings, bro treated his knees like shock absorbers.
Both are all-time athletic freak point guards in ways that are just different.
I do want to second this, of that era he existed in, he was easily the strongest/most athletic pg for a long time.. Edit: to say he also favored strength/agility over finesse, and that kinda killed his career, still fucking love the guy, but he wasn’t ready for the 3-point barrage of the new league
Russ in the 90’s would’ve been absolutely insane. He was the fastest, most explosive, and strongest PG in the league for a decade.
I’m biased af but that’s a great point about strength being part of athleticism
He’s always had superhuman speed and hops on a level above everybody else
I dont know how you determine who is more athletic. Rose obviously was more fluid, light and could “fly” better. Westbrook is obviously stronger and more powerful. Deciding that one is more athletic is dumb imo, like saying an NFL edge is more athletic than a wr
He had the physical talents for it: fast, crazy jump, timing
Plus also the dog to fight for them (similar to rodman)
He was a beast but also played with one of the better centers at boxing out that didn’t care if he didn’t get credit for rebounds.
Adams definitely helped Russ secure a lot of rebounds but most of the credit should still go to Russ. He didn’t have Steven Adams on the Wizards but still averaged a career high in rebounding.
It’s not a ridiculous claim
It’s an obviously true claim
Idk, Oscar Robinson probably has a case too
He really doesn’t. His rebounds (like Wilt and Russell) were seriously inflated because of the fast pace and poor shooting in the ‘60s. All told teams missed about 40 more shot a game back then compared to now, so there were way more rebounds across the board.
God damn that’s an insane number. 40 more misses a game is no joke
It’s an insane number because it’s exaggerated a bit. Oscar’s Royals averaged 57 misses/game in 1962 (Oscars highest rebound year) and Westbrook’s Wizards had 47 misses/game in 2021 (Westbrook’s highest rebound year). Both of those numbers were fairly typical for the year.
There’s 2 teams on the court
10 more misses per team is 20 more misses total, not 40.
Sure but you only looked at their specific team averages, not the league averages.
In 1962 there were 71.4 rebounds per game. In 2021 there were 44.3. That is nearly 30 extra rebounds per game.
Not the 40 claimed, but also significantly higher than 20.
I think if we’re looking at Oscar Robertson specifically, it makes more sense to look at team averages. At least for half the number (ideally, we’d also have an average for their opponents).
Also, even with your numbers, 27.1 is much closer to 20 than to 40.
Regardless, there are a lot of other factors to take into consideration. Spacing was different. Positions were played different. Etc.
Can someone who’s a mathmetician verify if this is correct?
I can’t count but I trust these numbers
And Russ was padded by being gifted rebounds by his team, especially on free throws. He’d also pad them by leaving his man hoping to get a rebound. Never boxed out. So sometimes leave his guy open for a shot, sometimes outta position for a longer rebound.
Russ is the greatest stat chaser in terms of rebounds.
Where the hell did you get 40 more missed shots a game from?
Robertson
Is it? During his mvp season, the Thunder were slightly better at rebounding when he was off the court. Hes a total stat chaser. Watch his games and you’ll see his rebounding isn’t that special. Leaving assignments, missing box outs, gifted to him on free throws.
If you want to see if someone is a good rebounder, Look at rebound percentages for on off. Russ is neutral. People just look at his rebound column and decide he’s great at it. He’s not.
I don’t know if he’s the best, but to claim he’s not a great rebounding point guard is insane
Would really like to hear who they think is an actually good rebounding PG if Russ isn’t. People hate on Russ so much for his flaws that they just HAVE TO find a way to hate on the objectively good parts of his game too.
bro give it a rest 😭
His RAPM 6-factor offensive and defensive rebounding numbers are really not terribly high. I haven’t extensively compared him to other guards, but Chris Paul consistently had a great impact on total rebounding
I will not be humble about it this dude is the GOAT rebounding pg. Check his highlights for him fighting for rebounds and winning possessions even up to Denver stint
I think his season with the Wizards (2020-2021 age 32) was his magnus opus as the GOAT rebounding guard: - He finished the season 6th in the NBA at 11.5 rpg. - He out-rebounded Giannis (11.0), Jokic (10.8), and Embiid (10.6). - He did this while leading the NBA with 11.7 assists per game, more than 2 apg better than the 2nd place guy, Trae Young (9.4) - He surpassed Wilt (once) with his second career 20 rebound / 20 assist game.
this is the season prior to joining Lebron btw the second half of the season he averaged 24/13/13 (rbs and asts are averaged down btw) after averaging 20.3⁄9.4⁄9.8 in the first half. The last month of that season, May 2021, he averaged a crazy 26/14/16 over nine games. He was getting better and better as the season progressed. Klutch did a great job of deflecting all the blame for the failed Lakers season the following year on Russ. Bro went from doing all that to being the third wheel for LeBron….which is never good for a player (just ask Love & Bosh).
Prior to wizards people were saying his rebounds are inflated because his bigs were boxing out and doing all the work for him. (Ibaka and Steven adams)
I mean, they did that on the wizards too
As a Sixers fan I’ve noticed this is really common for us. Our wings crash so Embiid can conserve energy.
The way y’all assign nefarious motives to fundamental basketball concepts is crazy.
“Big men are boxing out so Westbrook can steal rebounds and inflate his numbers.”
“Wings are crashing the glass *so Embiid can conserve energy.*”
Have y’all ever played basketball? Bigs boxing out and guards crashing the glass are pretty fundamental defensive rebounding strategies that have been employed from youth basketball to professional settings for decades. Did it ever occur to anyone that OKC was more effective and explosive when Russ led the break directly from a rebound instead of waiting on Nick Collison to grab it and get him an outlet pass? You think the coach wanted them to exploit that dynamic just to inflate Russ’ numbers? It’s just pure idiocy.
Can’t really argue that. Top 3 are easily Russ, Oscar, and Kidd.
Magic?
If we start including Magic, the answer becomes Bron
If magic count then we should count lebron too lol
Magic shouldn’t count because he’s one of the first truly positionless players.
Bro played small ball Center in the Finals before small ball lineups were in vogue. And he did it out of necessity.
You gotta have Fat Lever in there, only had a brief peak before injuries took their toll but for his height he was a great rebounder.
Is no one going to mention Luka Doncic? His career average is 8.5 rebounds a game…
Humbly speaking as a Russ disrespecter, he’s right, he is.
He humbly requested Adams to back off from some of those rebounds
It was their offensive scheme. It’s faster for transition if Adams boxes out and lets Russ grab the rebound rather than Adams grabbing it and then passing to Westbrook. Not like Adams is running the fast-break.
He averaged his career high in rebounds without Adams.
Both things can be true
If I had to guess, they probably had a slightly better statistical chance of scoring on a break possession immediately started by him getting the board than they did if Adams had to first get it to him or another runner. Be curious to see the math.
He retires as a top ten pg of all time. maybe he wont stay top ten forever but thats pretty fucking impressive.
I guess when you jump in front of all your teammates’ rebounds and steal them to pad your triple double numbers yeah I guess that does make you the best.
How do you think he won all those rings?
It’s debatable considering most of his rebounds are uncontested and he literally went out of his way to have his teammates let him get the rebound to pad his stats
Talk y’all shit Brook
OKC trading away James Harden is one of the biggest what-ifs in NBA.
I might be a hater for this but this sounds like a WR saying I’m the best blocking wr ever
I was going to use that same example but sometimes the WR does need to block on a run play. The point guard really has no business rebounding the ball unless he’s got the best chance to grab it. He’s supposed to be running out and getting the first pass from the rebounder. Fighting for the rebound just slows down the posession which many coaches would be against.
Probably between him, Magic and Kidd. For the size probably Westbrook, but overall Magic. In the early years there where a ton of instances where he would outrebound even Kareem.
He’s Russ man. He might not be a top 5 PG ever but he’s certainly close. The things this man did at the PG position are hard to be replicated
He’s not that close.
his peak is a bit underrated here. for example hes definitely better than iverson.
He is not definitely better than AI lol. You can make a case for either one.
Better at some things for sure but Iverson wasn’t really a PG either
A.I carried an average team to the finals. He lost to Shaq and Kobe, sure. Westbrook peak season as the guy, he won MVP then got bounced out of the playoffs in the first round. Even OKC fans would take Iverson over Westbrook at PG if they were building a historic team
No, we wouldnt
That’s interesting to hear. As THE guy on his team A.I carried his team to the 1 seed and to the finals. OKC were never really relevant once Durant left. Russ won MVP sure but he’s not a guy that can be the best player on a team and there be much expected in the playoffs. I can’t see the argument for Westbrook over A.I even including sentiment
Yeah the east was horrible those years. He had thr best defensive team in the league.
I mean there’s stats and then there is impact on a team. Most of the best PG’s of all time clearly made their team better from multiple elements of either playmaking/defending/scoring. Nobody who was building any sort of all time team of even okc would pick Westbrook over Gary Payton and Payton himself is a fringe top 10 guy
But rebounding isn’t one of them. It’s NOT the job of your guard to rebound the ball.
The man was the definition of empty stats
He averaged 11.5 boards as a 6’3” guard for an entire season. There are no other contenders.
Oscar averaged 12.5 as a 6’5” guard. Granted that was like 60 years ago.
Josh hart?
By far. This isn’t even debatable.
No need to be humble about it Killa !!
What’s the point of even saying something like this? “Humbly speaking” when you’re deeply immersed in your ego. What a joke.
He probably is, but you gotta take current rebounding in context as back in the days of the dominant big man there is no way in hell a guard would get away with taking away his defensive rebounds, especially the uncontested ones and those were a big part of Westbrook’s rebounding numbers. Your big would knock you on your ass if you did that back in the day….but nowadays it’s normal practice for guards to grab those rebounds as it better suits the way the game is played.
This is the Westbrook I’ve grown to expect:
No humility,
lacking awareness of how his teammates sacrifice so he can do what he wants for individual stats,
generally unaware of others’ accomplishments compared to his own and all connected context.
Weirdly all his teammates say the opposite
Russ wins this comment. Even if he stole a lot of them from his teammates.
Atta boi. Talk yo shit.
He’s not wrong.
That’s so humble.
Also no one mentioned this for some reason but Doncic is averaging 8,5 rpg for his career so far.
Another kinda the under the radar thing about his rebounding. He is so fast that when he’d get the rebound he would put a ton of pressure on the defense to get back. He could turn a normal defensive rebound into transition offense pretty regularly.
I’m not bragging.I’m just telling you the truth.
I think this is a fair comment. I gotta look it up just to be safe
That’s my quarterback.
He is but Josh Hart is second.
hart’s a forward i reckon. but honestly puts up the most ridiculous statlines, dude has like a 5-15-8 game once a week
Hart’s 6’4. He’s definitely a guard
he doesnt play the guard position though? ben simmons was 6’10 and played point guard, height is not position. he plays as a forward - he’s been listed as a SF for 3 of his 4 seasons at the knicks, if that helps. he can play guard, but is more of a forward
Russ is a better man than me, I wouldn’t be humble about it.
He’s not being humble about it at all lol (which is fine) but he definitely might be right.
Found this thread where most everyone agreed with him as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/arSzdmJm03
Brodie ain’t lying. Also the most athletic in NBA history. Russ played with such rage that it was entertaining to watch him every single time.
He definitely up there. Him and Kidd
Even if you wanted to argue against….the numbers are simply to good to try
I’m not going to disagree but when discussing comparative stats, one needs to keep in mind changes to the game over time. The pace of play has been higher in the past so that’s part of the reason why many big men had high rebounding numbers but the increase in outside shooting this century has led to more long rebounds not going to big men and to guards like Westbrook who would chase them.
I mean he’s right, but you can’t just say “I’m the best ever at this” and be humble that by definition is literally impossible
Ah ok, as long as you’re being humble about it.
But seriously, definitely one of the best.
J Kidd, A I, DWade we’re great rebounders as well. Westbrook was crazy in his prime though w the triple doubles made it look like a breeze!
I’ll say this it’s fair that he anchors his rebounding as the best guard to ever do it bc he definitely was one of the worst all star shooting guards ever !
Whenever one of these dudes starts with “humbly,” you know it’s over
Dude had NBA 2k numbers his MVP year and around that time.
He’s one of the best rebounding guards definitely
Hard to argue against
Definitely up there. One of the best is a better way to put it. Jason Kidd. Oscar Robertson. Even Luka due to him being the size of a house.
I mean… he’s probably right.
Oscar Robertson, Luka, and Kidd come close, but Russ has as good a case as anyone.
Hes not wrong
Humbly speaking you’re correct
The people’s champ! I will crown Russ for that. Can’t get mad at this dude for being who he is off and on the court
This ain’t a brag. Looking at the stats says he is one of the best of all time
Kinda hard to argue alot of his rebounds are fake(team could’ve grabbed it or completely uncontested) but he does get some really tough ones. So just by shear volume I would have to agree.
Josh Hart
Him and Rondo for sure
That’s true.
He’s also arguably the worst shooter in NBA history, which is really something.
Magic averaged more per game
Julius Irving is, according to basketball reference
Erving was a small forward basically his whole career
The first few times he averaged a triple double that shit was crazy. Funny it ended up a lil gimmicky. Dude still put up the stats night after night
Whenever you hear, “humbly speaking,” expect the opposite.
He is and it was great to watch but do you reqlly want your guard be going for rebounds all the time?
A lot of times left one man down on the other end..
I don’t think that word means what you think it means, bruh…
shoutout to nick collison and steven adams. bros did their job well to boxout for Russ.
Luka, Oscar, Magic
He’s not wrong I guess but he went down the list looking for anything to claim he’s the GOAT at and he landed on this since Jokic took the triple double GOAT crown.
Russ looked back in the sand and there was only one set of footprints.
He turned to Steven Adams - “You said you would always be with me!”
Adams replied, “Where you see one set of footprints, those were the times I carried you.”
He’s right tho
Oscar Robertson?
Theeeeeeere it is
He is who we thought he is
Who’s another greatest at something without winning a championship?
Stockton is probably the best at assists and steals.
He got that DAWG in him
I dunno, the boxscore stats say he is, but like 3 of those seasons he had Adam legit boxing out 2 guys when Russ got his defense rebs, Though it was like 7% difference only, He avg almost 4 rebounds less without Adams so much close to JKidd.
Im not hating but I did the research and not even a quarter of his rebounds were contested. Meaning teammates either let him have it or the other team ran back to defend immediately after a shot attempt
Man doesnt know what the world humble means
He prioritized grabbing a rebound over starting fast breaks