Channing Frye “yes, Steve Nash is better than Russell Westbrook.”
I’d trust Nash to be the #1 guy on the team compared to Westbrook
Nash would be the number one on a lot of teams. People are forgetting how good Nash was in his prime years.
The main thing people forget is that Nash could really score. He is one of the best shooters of all time. He was pass first, of course, but I if you “forced him to beat you”, he absolutely could.
Even his defense is underrated. He was always in the right spot, took a lot of charges, his on/off numbers showed the team didn’t really get better on the defense when he subbed out.
Really an incredible player, I feel very lucky to have watched his whole career.
He just struggled against anyone who was quicker, but as long as he could stay in front of his guy he was solid and fundamentally sound, cuz he was smart, obviously he had his physical limitations which prevented him from being a good defender
Sat courtside for a Nash v. D Rose matchup when D Rose was in his prime. Nash held his own. Suns defeated us.
He was too early for the new concepts. They could have hidden him in the corner on defense and back switched as necessary like curry did 10 years ago. But too early.
I mean Jesus they should’ve had him taking 10 3s a game.
This was always my thought as a Spurs fan. I was so relived that he’d pass so much. His career 3pt% is higher than Curry’s, but he played before extreme high volume threes were acceptable.
Nash himself acknowledged iirc that he should’ve shot more period now after seeing what happened after his career. People hate on his MVPs but they absolutely felt earned to me.
It’s higher than Curry’s but he was more picky about the shots he took since it was never his first option. He was a pass first PG. He also didn’t take a lot of shots. If he was a shoot first PG and had to carry the offense like curry, his % would obviously go down.
He was an assistant coach in Golden State during the rise of the splash bros and he said the same thing after watching Steph do it.
Didn’t need to hide him. He wasn’t that much of a negative and analytics wasnt as wide back then
Tbf that goes both ways. Teams would also hunt the shit out of him today because “not that much of a negative” is the guy you’re going to try to kill today unless someone else is even worse lol. Our perception of his defense is warped by his era where teams didn’t just relentlessly target one guy the way they do now. We’d all think he was straight ass cheeks now on defense because all we would see is everyone trying to iso him and everyone else trying to save him from it lol
He was the one that brought the concepts in.
Are you remembering Lakers Nash, cause id prefer you to remember the younger versions.
Nash was a good defender til his back broke
At least he puts in effort. Effort and study are everything for defense, especially when you aren’t as athletically gifted. Russ is way too athletically gifted to be that bad on defense and taking that many plays off. Curry got picked on for being the worst on a team of very good defensive players, but he basically always gave effort and showed good improvement over his career. I don’t like the excuse that players are saving energy for offense unless you are Lebron who is 50
People assume anyone who’s white and small is bad at defense. Payton Prichard gets it all the time too despite being a good defender. Same with Sam Hauser actually so maybe it’s not just the small guys.
It’s not just the small guys.
Fr, Caruso was the exception for some reason.
Favorite team of all time is the Steve Nash/Dirk Mavs. That team was fun to watch.
For me it was his Suns teams. They were such a breath of fresh air after the stodgy early 2000s style.
Nash’s first season in Phoenix legitimately got me into basketball. Forever my favourite player.
With nick van exel?
Also tough as nails, I remember when his nose was fucked up and he just put it back in place ?!
It makes me really bummed that I missed out on seeing Nash completely as a kid on the east coast. I always had to go to bed before west coast games.
Now as an adult when I see highlights of his he absolutely would have been one of my top 3 favorite players
I feel you. I started watching the NBA in 2000 so the only MJ I saw was the one on the Wizards. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to appreciate how much of a legend he is.
He would drop 30 a game in today’s game. The guy could shoot but only shot about five threes a game during his best seasons.
Averaging 30 is a bit exaggerated. Getting to 23-25 is realistic if he takes a ton more 3s
His peak was 23.9 a game in the playoffs one year. Probably peaks around 23-25 in the regular season season like you said and then is a playoff riser to the upper 20s or maybe 30 in his prime
He’s in the 40 50 90 club FOUR TIMES, from back when you could defend. He’d score at will today with the way defenders can’t touch you.
What is this take. Defensive schemes are far more complex in the game today than they were in the 2000s
But regardless the game is a lot more open now so Nash would have a ton of space so I think he easily puts up 22+ ppg
Right but now he could just step back 3 times in a row and shoot and not get called for a travel. When Nash played you actually had to dribble.
Schemes are extremely easy to learn. He played competitive soccer where you have to pay attention to 22 people. He’d learn the schemes.
Also are you on crack? You can’t defend man to man at all. Thats why the schemes are having to adapt.
defensive schemes in basketball are far more complicated than in soccer.
50/40/90
I would’ve loved to see his prime in the late 2010s where they let guards shoot 10 3’s a game
That series against the Mavs where he went nuclear the last couple games is the perfect example. He averaged 30⁄12 for the series which is fucking insane, and in the last 3 games he was putting up 40 on disgusting efficiency
His prime is like 33 or something right. Wild player.
Don’t he average like 43 ppg in a playoff series because they tried that?
And the 2x scoring champ who averaged a 32point triple double can’t really score?
Homie averaged 50/40/90 FOR ENTIRE CAREER
Westbrook never averaged above 50% fg in a season
Thats pretty amazing to do as a guard. What other guard comes close to that?
No one.
Reggie Miller, Steph and Kyrie did it once in a season.
Tbf Steph could probably do it if he altered his shot diet. If he took less threes, he’d make it for sure.
Yeah pointing out Steph isn’t 50-40-90 just shows it’s a silly stat that penalizes someone shooting 45% on threes over someone shooting 50% on 2s.
Steph has higher career 2pt% than Nash, you’re right it’s flawed.
Almost a great example of Simpson’s Paradox tbh. Steph has a higher 2p%, and even if he had a higher career 3pt%, he could still be below Nash in FG%
Nash would thrive in modern era.
Easiest 20 3p attempts per game.
Jeff Hornacek is close to 50/40/90 for his career. I’m not joking you can look it up.
Nash also is not exactly there. Obviously a way better player but just giving you an interesting fact about Hornacek.
He didn’t average that for his whole career. He came damn close though.
I rounded up lol
Still impressive y’know
Yeah and those mvp’s aren’t flukes either. Shaq can cry all he wants but getting it b2b was not a fluke. It’s a regular season award lol
People aren’t forgetting, it’s just this sub is full of teenagers that weren’t around to watch his prime
are they? Nash has 2 MVPs. westbrook is my favorite player but why are we acting like this opinion is controversial
He was what people thought Steph. Curry was in today’s world.
Straight automatic buckets but he had a pass first mentality. You had this feeling always that nash would do something positive for the team offensively.
I think bill Simmons or someone that Nash was a part of the number one or 2 offense for like 7 straight years or something crazy.
From the 2001-2002 season to 2009-2010 a Nash lead team had a top 2 offense.
Honestly Westbrook might be the MVP I least trust to be the #1 guy on a team
He’s a great tank commander and regular season guy but no team with him as their #1 guy is going far in the playoffs
I think the lakers were at least hoping him to carry the regular season but he couldn’t even do that
Sacrilegious and blasphemous, straight to GOATbrook jail with you rapscallion.
Answer for that will always be Wes Unseld or Bob McAdoo
More importantly, you could put Steve Nash on literally any team and he will make them better. Not only was he an amazing passer and floor general, he was a 50/40/90 guy who could score from all three levels. He was also tough as nails. I’m not saying you could swap him out for any player but I can’t think of any team that wouldn’t be better by adding Steve Nash to the line up. It’s a cliche but Steve Nash definitely plays the game the right way.
No shit.
Fr this shouldn’t even be a question
Engagement bait
it’s working
Exactly what I said in my head when I saw this, it’s not even close. Nash is one of the greatest offensive engines in history ever, possibly the greatest in that specific aspect.
The 7sol suns changed the league forever. Nobody but Nash could have led that revolution. He should be held as one of the most influential players of all time.
Lol is this even a debate?
It’s not. They’re both top 10 but Nash slots in higher than Russ.
This seems like a thinly veiled Westbrook hate thread.
Nobody is actually arguing Westbrook above Nash.
Well, I’m sure there is someone in this subreddit who might
MITWestbrook lurkin I can feel it
Summon him
Oh god, not the deep magic.
Russ is not a top 10 pg all time
Westbrook Top 10? 😂 Am I missing something? How is this upvoted?
It shouldn’t be but with the way Westbrook is overrated and Nash is underrated I’m sure in any place other than reddit people think Westbrook is better.
Russ is insanely overhated
It’s push back. For an entire season people had to hear about how a triple double (not 29/8/11), was the magic number for someone being the most valuable player in the league.
Then you get 3 more seasons after 2017 where he averages a triple double with disappointing ends to season despite having more stacked teams, and none of those people are saying, “oh interesting, maybe a triple double wasn’t a good reason to put him over the edge for MVP”. So the people that disagreed with him winning MVP in 2017 just keep piling on.
At least in online spaces, Westbrook has become underrated. People think he’s Cam Thomas or some shit.
I’m 99% sure if you asked this question on twitter, Instagram or Youtube most people would take Russ over Nash
Not among anyone old enough to have seen in his prime.
Facts. Two time MVP who literally fucking made teams elite.
And my hill I will die on is that not only did he deserve them both, but the second actually retroactively proved he deserved the first
Stoudemire went down and the team didn’t miss a beat. Nash was fucking gorgeous out there
whispers he actually should have won it the third year too
I opened the thread thinking “I hope this is not a controversial take at all because Nash is for sure better”.
IMO even as a two time MVP Nash is somehow still underrated in the NBA.
Easy top 5~ PG ever for me.
PG is just such a historically stacked position that it’s hard to say that anyone besides Magic and Steph are locks in the top 5. There are a lot of guys with really good arguments like Nash, Oscar, Kidd, Thomas, Stockton, West, Paul, and Russ. Somehow only 3 of those guys are in the top 5 and I don’t think there’s anything easy about deciding that.
There was a time where Big O was talked about as the GOAT. Early NBA, so I get that the title didn’t carry the same weight it does now… but it was him, Russell and Wilt until Kareem came along. Even if he isn’t Magic/Steph level, I’d say he’s a top 5 lock.
Yeah it’s a very tight contest for those last three spots in the top 5.
I think it’s because it’s hard to define a PG. Being a great floor general doesn’t necessarily show up in the stats.
The best to ever do it probably isn’t even on our radar because their teams were always so extremely shit they never got any attention.
Magic, Steph, Cp3 , IT, Oscar, Stockton
Which of those you taking out for Nash?
Stockton. Not to say he wasn’t an amazing player, but I’d take Nash over him for sure.
How many All-Defensive teams did Steve Nash make?
Stockton made five All-Defense second teams. Nash was always the weakest point of defense for any team to attack; he was a sieve.
Stockton also holds the all-time record for steals. It will never be broken because we will never see a player who starts and plays 82 games for four straight seasons in his late thirties while giving any sort of effort on defense.
Nash played 202 games in his last four seasons and 65 in his last two.
Stockton played all 328 in his last four seasons with still-excellent defense. He’s a career 38% three-point shooter; it was just a different time.
You simply cannot have Nash above Stockton for anything besides 50/40/90. Stockton’s records in assists and steals will never be broken. You can’t bump him out of the top five for an elite shooter who never played defense; I’m saying this as a lifelong Mavs fan.
Stockton had a longer career, but in his best season, he was considered the 7th most valuable player in the NBA.
Nash was considered the most valuable player in the NBA TWICE.
It’s like Lowry vs Derozan, DeRozan had the better career stats, but Lowry was definitely the most impactful player and leader
What was Steve Nash better at than John Stockton?
Everything on offense, and it wasn’t even close.
IT, easy
Easy is nasty statement. iT got went to 3 straight finals. Got two rings. Nash never got his team over the hump
Thomas was the primary factor on two championship teams and is in the small club of point guards who carried a team as the primary star to a championship. He’s in the same category as magic and Steph albeit behind those two.
Those teams were incredibly well balanced, IT wasn’t even the FMVP the first year
Ok and what about the year after? Lol
Nash has 2 MVPS
Mainly because people are so obsessed with Kobe and cry about the MVP Nash win over him
I agree
Top 10 i think, not top 5
I’m a huge Westbrook fan and I think he’s extremely underrated.
But I still pick Nash. He’s ALSO extremely underrated. One of the greatest PGS ever.
I’ll give westbrook his flowers any day. He was a triple double machine.
The stat geeks will look at nash and be like his numbers don’t excite me. However, Nash improved everyone around him. Nash got a lot of low tier role players some good contracts they didnt deserve. Westbrook never made a team dramatically better. His best statistical year wizards went below 500. Nash literally led teams to winning records.
analytics guys actually look at nash very highly– like top 5 or even top 3 point guard ever
This is funny because analytics love Nash and don’t particularly like Westbrook much
Is this actually true though? In his Prime WB had some of the best impact metrics in the league. He was top 5 in creating 3 point opportunities for his team, top 5 in +/-, top 5 in TS jump for teammates when on/off
You’re right advanced stats really liked him from like 2012-2018(ish). I misremembered.
The stat geeks will look at nash and be like his numbers don’t excite me.
Only the ones looking at raw stats. Impacts stats show how great his contributions were
People who look only at raw box score per game averages aren’t “stat geeks.” Most stat geeks love Nash
Not close. Nash is probably 30 spots ahead on the GOAT rankings.
yeah but can he dunk loud tho?
Channing Frye: water is wet
Agreed
For anyone saying this is not a hot take, look at how former players talk about Nash. I mean, Shaq has an open campaign against Nash’s legacy. This is a hot take in a lot of circles outside of this subreddit
Who besides Shaq doesn’t respect Steve as a legend?? I haven’t heard of this tbh
Was anyone arguing this?
Is that supposed to be controversial?
2k is the only place I’m taking Westbrook over Nash.
Easily and I would argue that Nash would be perfect for this era and thus might be up there with the best pgs of all time
Nash would be putting up Curry level shooting numbers and Luka level creation if he played in this era.
Russ was also helped a ton by playing in the era of spacing and heliocentrism. He would have been a significantly worse player if he came into the league in the mid 90s and had to play off ball a lot more
The fact that Westbrook took more threes per possession over his career than Nash is a basketball tragedy
Not even close.
Shouldn’t be a debate
Who watches basketball that doesn’t know this?
I’d go with Nash, those peak years as the engine of the elite Suns offense are hard to beat, but I think it’s closer than a lot of folks here assess it because Westbrook’s weaknesses get played up more than his strengths at this point in his career.
Westbrook had more success versus the Spurs in the playoffs then Nash, and I’d say a lot of that came down to his overwhelming physical style which Nash could never replicate.
I went to a basketball summer camp at Nash’s college when I was like 7 and used to see him bouncing a tennis ball while he was walking around campus, Jamba Juice, everywhere. Had no idea who he was at the time haha
Was he going for the most obvious take of all time?
Hell yeah.
Okay I always like to explore the contrarian route in arguments and the overwhelming majority here are going with Nash so it leaves me with no choice
I’m not saying one is better than the other but let’s consider these
You take a prime Russ and drop him on that Suns team with matrix, Amare, Joe Johnson, Diaw…. Who else sn u missing on that team? How far do they go?
Now you take Nash and drop him on the OKC team…. Do they still beat the teams they did that year to make it to finals? If they do then do they beat the Heat? How would Nash fair bring put in actions having to guard Wade/ prime Bron in a series?
How about the year OKC was up 3-1 on GSW…. Granted they lost that series, what role did Russ have in them being up 3-1, was he a non factor in most games and was carried? Was his defense great on Curry?
Now like I said I’m not certain who I will take because I’m a fan of both and their styles of play is as different than oil and water….
The one thing I’d add is that Nash was a good playmaker but its not like Russ didnt have seasons averaging Double digit assists either
Russ is the better rebounder and had ability to play above the rim as well dunking over any and everybody with no regard for human life ( I forget which San Antonio series it was where he came down the lane and just banged on the spurs team as if the whole team owed him money and joked about his momma)
On the last point Nash is the better shooter hands down, not even arguing that
I wish those two had gotten a chance to play each other in the playoffs in their prime years
KD, Ibaka, Harden, and Nash? Oh, man the heat might have one less title.
That team would have been unstoppable. Throw in Nash’s ability to encourage everyone around him. Nobody beats that team.
Nash on that okc is fucking insane spacing gets so fucking ridiculous
Nash doesn’t fix KD choking
That series literally spawned the westbrick meme mate
Yeah I’m done with Reddit.
Sad day for reddit
Thats not arguable at all Nash is obviously better
If Nash grew up in this era, it would be even better.
Don’t need to talk about the passing and vision but really felt like he could score whenever he wanted to, such a gifted shooter. Too selfless at times but he would’ve had crazy numbers in this era.
Well duh?
I can’t tell if this is supposed to generate Nash slander or Russ slander
Negative.
Goat of the middy
duh?
Russ stans gonna be crashing out over this one lol
While Westbrook’s highlights were elite, Nash’s Suns were must-watch basketball.
I mean duh
Yea but what does MITWestbrook think about this.
There is no universe where I pick Russ over Nash.
This is another one of those litmus tests. People who say Westbrook are basically low IQ and cannot be trusted to have a productive conversation about basketball.
I see no lies.
Why do people create narratives that doesnt exist then say It like its a hot take?
Nash and Westbrook aint in the same page, Nash is a better player in everything…Westbrook is just ‘flashier’
This feels obvious to me
Is it even a debate?
Mvp Russ was getting bounced in the first round and didnt really have playoff success after KD left.Bro was a glorified stat padder.He still went out and played hard as’f and was exciting to watch,but that’s it.
Why is this even debatable or even has to be said?
How is this even a question?
No one thinks Russ is better, other than Westbrick himself
Russ was a bad shooter who ball hogged and turned the ball over. If we are building all time great teams he doesn’t even get picked. Unless you want to frustrate the rest of your team. Say KD.
Russ was pure excitement though. Just historically overrated.
Yes this is true
If you can be rage baited with Westbrick, too soft.
Russ would destroy nash let’s be honest here
Good thing basketball is a 1v1 sport then
I mean, is there a debate in this?
It’s not even close how much better Steve Nash was u kidding me lol
In today’s NBA Nash would be undersized and struggle a bit more on defense but offensively would probably average 28ppg and 11 dimes
Totally fair (and correct) take. And Russ is my favorite player.
He’s way better offensively but worse defensively.
You can plug and play prime Nash anywhere and win.
I wasn’t even aware this was a debate.
Most westbrook fans gotta agree
nash > westbrook is like saying grass is green lol
Nobody said no
This is true
Remember when athletes said they were the “new media” and wouldn’t just be putting athletes against each other like traditional media 😂
If they were on the same team, nash would run the half court offense, Russ probably focuses more on pushing the fastbreak
That’s pretty true imo, Westbrook is a once in a lifetime player. I’ve never seen someone play with such passion and ferocity as him, that man could dunk the earth in a blackhole. But Nash was what you wanted in a pg and the effectiveness would be something I would value in my starting point.
Surprised it’s up for debate
Westbrook can’t even help PG13 get past the FIRST round in the playoffs when (PG13) was at his peak and against a young Donovan Mitchell and prime Rudy Gobert. I think the only similarities between Westbrook and Nash is that they’re clutch with free throws down the stretch but even then, Nash is one of the best players to build around even if he didn’t win a championship.
I don’t know why this is controversial.
Steve Nash never attempted more than 4.7 3s per game in a year.
Wild.
Steve Nash ran the pick and roll and was a floor general. Westbrook was not those things. Westbrook was a good point guard with Durant. But, he’s never been a floor general player the way Steve Nash was. Westbrook is a completely different player than Steve Nash. These debates are dumb. Compare Steve Nash to CP3 or Rondo. Compare Westbrook to Iverson. Then you can have an actually debate instead of comparing apples to oranges
what a beautiful statement
is that even a question?
Westbrook has one of the lamest mvps over harden bc he farmed 2 more rebounds a game and significantly worse efficiency, and the 6th seed vs 3 seed. If it wasn’t for that he would be way down in legacy arguments
Prime vs prime it’s pretty clearly Nash over Westbrook. They both have one mvp they don’t deserve, both were great, both failed in the playoffs. Nash had more extenuating circumstances for his playoff failures though. Russ just chucked his way out
Well… yeah? They’re both top 10
Westbrook fan here. I agree. Takes nothing away from Russ. They are two completely different players.
Westbrook has more athletic talent but consistently makes bonehead decisions in the clutch that costs his team in big moments.
Nash is an elite all time level shooter and distributor, but an absolute cone on defense.
Give me Nash because I can win with him despite his flaws.
People forget prime Nash was a stud. I remember that Nash, Stoudemire, Barbosa, Bell team very well. Kicked our butt a few times in the playoffs too lol
Someone can check, but i’m pretty sure Westbrick had like 35% usage rate vs Nash 21% roughly. With that Nash average 8.5 Assist vs Westbrick 8 Assist, and teammates shot a higher % off Nash passes and when he was on the floor.
OKC wins a ring with Nash easily. Physically Westbrick might be better, but IQ, leadership, making others better, creating team offense, getting teammates in their spots, and getting them touches Nash is far ahead. Also Nash could shoot the ball.
Better passer, better shooter, better teammate and a better leader. Yes, Nash it better.
Neither guy won anything… Nash led two teams that were projected to be in the finals yet folded in the playoffs… I don’t think any Westbrook led team was projected to be in the finals. Nash has Westbrook beat in basketball IQ and pure shooting but Westbrook literally beats Nash in everything else.
I’m taking Nash over Westbrook if I have scorers on my team. If I have a lot of defenders and role players I’m taking Westbrook.
A lot of people like putting shit on Russ name but he carried that OKC team for years after KD left them in the dust. Took all the criticism and stepped out there every night and was a DOG! And he had the respect of his team and the fans and led them with pure intensity.
Westbrook is the only player I can think of that can average a triple double and still not make his team a contender
Tune in tomorrow to find out about the size difference between the sun and the moon.
I mean, I think that’s the general consensus amongst fans.. literal hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby