Absolutely, played like it wasn’t even there for the most part. 15 ft out were outside shots.

Prob the first thing I notice is that the three point line is ignored, almost completely, especially early on.

This is true. Many were still treating it as a gimmick or an act of desperation back then.

It’s fascinating to go back and watch Magic Johnson and Michael Cooper sag five feet off of Joe Dumars at the 3-point line in the 1989 Finals. We’re talking about a career 40 percent shooter from deep but it just wasn’t considered smart basketball to shoot lots of threes so both Joe and Isiah spent a lot of that series initiating the offense right up at the line with limited on-ball pressure (still worked out for Joe, he ran away with the Finals MVP that year despite making zero 3-pointers that series).

As someone who’s been watching the game for a lonnnnng time, another big sea change I’ve noticed along the line is the fact that players back then were way more likely to attempt “toe-on-the-line” shots, because the common understanding back then was that your singular focus should be on knocking down the shot you’ve got, not looking at your feet and “getting distracted”. In fact, being too cognizant of where your feet were (or going out of your way to step behind the line) was often likely to earn you derision if you missed.

Lastly, I’m also a part of the “take one step in” generation, which you’d also see in the league from time to time back then, where guys would pass up open 3-pointers to step in and fire from 20-feet instead because closer was considered almost universally better.

It makes sense - college didn’t adopt the 3 point line until the 86-87 season - so for most of the 1980s the players had never played with a 3 point line before.

I remember watching that recent Lakers show on HBO and after one of the seasons I looked up the box scores of the games they were recreating, and there were like 10 3P FGA the entire series!  This was like 1980, though. 

It’s funny how that’s changed at all levels. I’m 20+ years removed from high school basketball, and it occurs to me that during games we virtually never took three-point attempts even though we practiced them fairly regularly. It was all about swinging the ball around the outside and looking for someone driving, or going for a layup or midrange. Taking a three may as well have been firing one off from halfcourt.

Larry Bird would be total God Mode in today’s NBA hoisting 10 3’s/game

He shot 42.7% on like 1.6 attempts/game in the mid 80’s which got up to 3 atrempts/game by the end of his career 

Cool comment

cool guy

Cool and Dre

Shout out Kevin McHale, I was watching a 80s game last month and he was sick, also had an elite post fade.

It’s not a “lost art” as in they can’t do it, it just mostly left the game for some reason

It has “left” the game because those type of passes are far more dangerous against modern defenses. Defensive rotations and help are much faster today (which was helped by rule changes that allow for more flexible defensive schema), and tight pursuit of off ball movement is a critical aspect of successful modern defenses so finding / creating those gaps is much more challenging.

It also doesn’t hurt that down-roster athleticism and talent is at an all time high, and “versatile mid sized players with quick feet, a long wingspan and fast hands” is the archetype every team in the NBA has been aggressively chasing since the ascent of small ball.

Rim running, screen setting bigs are still expected to do this today. Some just have very bad hands.

I think a big reason you don’t see the skill is that a contested 2 from 5 feet is an inefficient shot for most guys. That’s just not the type of shot you scheme to get these days.

“Obviously the pass needs to hit you where you can go up in one fluid motion”
-Exactly, and this is because of the evolution of the Combo Guard.

Not sure who would technically be the first, but the one that seemed to have the biggest immediate impact for me was Marbury. Before him, a PG’s primary task was to setup up teammates by initiating half court plays, then move & deceive the defense. We were literally trained to learn every teammate’s spots (where they want to be on the floor), entry points (where & how you deliver the ball), and rhythm (how they get to their package of moves and how long that takes).

There are still PGs that know and do this (Chris Paul was excellent at all of it), but most of the players we call PGs are now Combo guards. A byproduct of positionless basketball. We gained more dunks, transition offense, and three pointers but at the loss of a great deal of nuance and precision.

I agree, i came away not thinking that modern players didnt have fundamentals or anything, morseo the fundamentals have changed. Making a contested standing layup in the paint is no longer a fundamental, open layups obviously are, but dribbling and shooting are the fundamentals of todays game

Klay Thompson revived the catch and shoot, only to have its legacy once again die with him

Catching the ball in the paint and immediately having your hands and body in position to put up a shot is nearly a lost art.

Poeltl is pretty great at this, same with Hartenstein. They both have that little push shot that they get off anywhere in the paint.

It’s called the dunker spot in today’s nba. It’s done via lobs nowadays. No need to catch and make a finishing move if you can just lob it to a dunker. Game done changed not the outcome.

Surely you simply needed it if everyone was much closer to the basket because the 3 wasn’t a significant factor.

Not OP but I actually really agree with Rodman and Bird saying 90s was washed in comparison to 80s.

The 80s competition level was very high in the playoffs, all the rotational players were smart and made great plays. The 90s was very top heavy, bench players made a lot of mistakes even among top teams like Portland, Jazz, Cavs etc.

80s had a certain fluidity that showcased elite ball movement, 90s and 00s were very Iso heavy, 10s and 20s became a hybrid. If you’re looking for team play, I think 80s was the best.

I genuinely enjoyed both, I’m probably biased to todays game since its closer to how i play, but the 80s have a really cool feel to them too. The passing and screening in the paint is something almost never seen today. I can definitely see why people prefer that style of play. Seeing a SF catch the ball directly under the rim with his center and PF only 5 feet from him on either side was special

Best era of the NBA to watch aesthetically is now. I have watched the NBA since the 80’s and while there is something to be said for a time like Westheads 7 seconds or less offense in the late 80’s early 90’s and other teams moving the ball at record pace up the court the offenses were pretty stagnant overall. Sure you had the Triangle and the Pick and Roll from the Jazz and post players were significantly better then they are now with there backs to the basket. But the offenses are just painful to watch in comparison.

that’s literally the point of the gather gurus posts… to say hey the rules aren’t what they used to be.

OP’s #5 is the universal truth of old heads in all sports and vocations.

But, when I was young my dad used to complain about the steps Jordan was getting and how it used to be back in his day. The cycle will continue…

So true.

Getting older really does provide an additional opportunity for perspective.

When I grew up in the late ‘90s and 2000s, I assumed I was watching the pinnacle of basketball, that the generations prior were the “before” and the new guys, my generation’s players, were a part of the game’s plateau. I think I just assumed the game had peaked.

Lo and behold, younger fans in the 2010s soon began talking about ‘90s basketball the same way I used to talk about ‘70s basketball. And someday, another generation is going to come around and start poking holes in the 2010s, and around and around we’ll go.

The issue is that they say literally everything is a gather step.

Any move that looks somewhat similar to a true gather step, e.g. guys palming the ball, then picking it up with both hands and taking 3 more steps is still a gather in their mind.

In fact I’d agure the main issue regarding the gather today is that a lot of players are starting the moves by palming the ball illegally.

By definition they are interrupting the dribble - and everything after that more than two steps is a travel.

Simple as that.

Not sure if they’re trolling, looking for a reason to take many steps themselves at pickup games or honestly believe it. But there were even people on Insta aggressively defending the notorious Embiid 5 shuffle stepback earlier in the season.

The setting for the 3 point revolution to occur was:

1. Elimination of handchecking
2. Legalization of zone defense which crowded the paint, forcing more kick-outs
3. Reduction of physicality in the wake of the malice in the palace (there’s a reason why Nash’s breakout only came after an implicit rule change)
4. Steph Curry breaking the meta
5. Further reduction in physicality to encourage small, quick ball handlers to be ball-dominant
6. Harden’s stepback routine
7. The league allowing illegal holds on defenders so small, quick ball handlers can get open even more easily

Since 2014-15, the scoring pace is through the roof in the NBA, and it’s definitely not just because everyone became a more skilled shooter.

Basketball fundamentals have also changed. I mentioned in another comment that making a contested standing layup was a fundamental in the 80s, while today shooting and dribbling are the fundamentals.

Players absolutely have gotten better though. Even if you want to argue the skill levels are even (they’re not, but I’ll give you that they are). The pool of available players due to the influx of the global market and less guys falling through the cracks for a multitude of reasons means the best 450 guys today are noticeably better than the best 450 of 40 years ago. 

Players got so much better though. You look at those 80s, 90s, 00s team then you see their 4th and 5th starter as specialists even though they are contenders.

Specialists, as in pure defender or pure shooter. Nowadays, contenders have to field in really competent 4th and 5th players to be called contenders. They should be able to defend, shoot and dribble the ball in a decent level or they are exploited in mismatches.

Depth is the other obvious thing that changed. Prerequisite for every contenders now to have at least 9 rotational players.

Come playoff time, Jordan, Shaq, Magic plays 42mins because thats how PO back then, starters and stars plays massive minutes. You got 3 stars and 2 respectable players? Contenders it is.

Role players back then vs today has crazy gap. And that makes majority of the nba, not stars.

street ball helped usher in a completely new style of dribbling. i think guys overall were a bit less dynamic dribblers back then than today. part of that is the defense and rules but i feel like back then it wasn’t that uncommon to see a guy having to protect his dribble all the way up the floor

I swear the NBA is the only sport where the general consensus is that everything was better in the past

The biggest misconception (and marketing strategy by the league) is that players just got so much better over the years and that’s why the game looks so different.

not true in the case of soccer/football

players are so much less skilled than 90s/2000s/early 2010s. its beyond noticeable.

the game is all about the manager now micromanaging where every player moves and stands.

Yea bc the defenses were far worse. Wild to see that and think modern players just aren’t able to make such passes. They’re pro athletes, they can throw a ball with precision. Issue is that now there’s always a defender ready to make it a difficult shot

Yeah, passing as a skill has changed from making contested passes in the paint or into the paint to getting passes from the paint to the 3pt line.

The first travel call off of a catch kind of shocked me. 95% of handoffs today would be travels. That change alone leads to an entirely different gane honestly.

Any clearly perceived significant difference between the rules on paper and the rules as you see them enforced is just brutally detrimental, no matter which sport.

Dave Corzine actually in the game i watched, but it is interesting how long ‘stretch’ bigs have actually been part of the game. Parish and Lambeer come to mind as well as bigs with a well established middy game.

Ball handlers werent really pressured in the games i watched until they were inside 15 ft. Even once a dribble was picked up, their man was usually backing off to steal the post entry pass rather than pressing up on their man. The only time I saw ball pressure was in the bulls Celtics game when the bulls ran a full court zone press/trap defense. Even in game 6 of the 86 finals, the celtics let magic shoot any outside shot he wanted without pressure.

Yeah, there were some flashes of it between Horford and Rob Williams, but obviously woth nowhere near the volume or congestion in the paint. It still exists occasionally, but its rare to see. 2014 spurs is a pretty good semi modern model for it

They started complaining about continuation, felt very familiar. Also heard ‘well you get a step, two if youre quick enough’ about a travelling non call.

There are a ton of full playoff games from the 80s and 90s on youtube (pretty much every MJ playoff game can be found)

These 2 I did find on youtube

There are a few dedicated channels that inexplicably get away with hosting full 80s and 90s game broadcasts in as good quality as you’d imagine possible. I really don’t want to link anything in a sub where the NBA is watching and posting.

He didnt have a very good game in the game i watched unfortunately, but still made some cool plays. I havent watched him a ton so dont really have a personal opinion on him.

You think theres less strategy, skills, and creativity now than there was before? Also wouldnt the rules being more lax mean more room to do stuff, more skills, and more strategy.

NBA players are so, so, so much more talented today than they were even 15 years ago. If you disagree I’m surprised you’re able to scroll reddit while having your head that buried in the sand

Yeah, there are defnitely some that have and some skills that have improved. Shooting and dribbling have clearly improved even through the lens of the rules being enforced differently. But i do think that passing and finishing in crowded areas may have atrophied. Bird in particular had some really cool moves after pump fakes, step throughs, up and unders and quick passes inside.

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