Does Damian Lillard really have a case for top 50 all time? Has he ever been even a top 5 player in the league at any point of his career? 

Embiid easily a top-50 talent of all time, maybe higher. Idk if he’s a top-50 player/career of all time, more likely t-75.

Don’t see it for Dame

There’s 29 guys with an MVP and title. There’s two guys with two MVP’s. Add in George Mikan too who predates MVP and is obvious. There’s guys that won MVP and nearly won titles (Iverson, Harden, Barkley) and guys who won titles that were MVP candidates (AD, Kawhi, West, Wade, Rick Barry and Drexler).

That’s nine spots left. There’s older dudes that fit category of near MVP peak and central to a title like Hayes, Frazier, Paul Arizin, Dolph Schayes, Havlicek and technically Dwight and JKidd. Then you have dudes like Baylor, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, CP3, Patrick Ewing and Westbrook who we can comfortably put ahead of Dame

We’re talking about resume with Tatum when Luka hasn’t won a chip? Really?

Dame isn’t a top 50. Tatum could be but if we’re only calculating what has happened up to this point, no.

Embiid certainly is a case, but I’m not sure we can put up a guy who will probably only play <700 games into your all time greats conversation

Tatum will be in there soon. Just doesn’t have the longevity.

im as big an embiid stan as anyone, but absolutely does not crack top 50. availability is the best ability. if he wins a championship playing a significant role, he has a case.

²³⁄₂₄ he was fucking cooking everyone

Someone can’t be top 50 if they have never made it out of the 2nd round.

how so?

Embiid needs more postseason success to make it. His career so far has been far too injury-plagued and devoid of playoff accolades. Derrick Rose isn’t top 50 either.

CP3’s out of the league now, he retired

Gobert and Draymond are definitely not top 50, top 100 probably

Cp3 is retired though

No he isn’t. You’re just hating.

Shai Luka and Tatum already have accolades not even 50 players have ever had their entire career. Especially Shai, who has 2 MVPs, a championship and an FMVP. He’s very obviously in that top 50 as of the end of the 25 season

Not sure how you can argue Shai isn’t top 50 at this point. He’s already a top 30 player all time. He’s a 2x MVP and Champion. Every 2x MVP and champion is considered a top 30 player all time, if not essentially defining the entire top 15 (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/players-with-at-least-2-mvps-and-1-rings-nba).

If you think longevity is an issue, current 4 year stretch (4x All NBA 1st team, 2x MVP, 1x Champion) is better, more accomplished, and longer than many top50 players (Bill Walton, Russ, Steve Nash, Clyde Drexler, Kevin McHale, Jason Kidd - etc etc).

For some reference there are 44 players with 4x All-NBA First Team appearences

Smoking actual crack today are we

How many MVP’s that had long peaks/long careers and generally stayed healthy are not in the top 50?

The only ones I see (probably) not making top 50:

Dave Cowens - Way shorter career, less allstars/all nba.
Willis Reed - Ditto / Was washed by 29.
Wes Unseld - Never scored more than 17 per game. Only 6 sesons with double digit points per game. Only 1 all NBA

Starting after 1960 (and probably even if you go all time, I’m just not going to opine on fucking Bill
https://www.espn.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/33

Its also just depends on your criteria and preferences. Like if we are going heavy on Championships/Playoff success versus longevity/overall performance guys like James Harden and Khai Leonard might be ranked very differently.f

Edit: In all honesty Nash and Iverson are probably close to the cut-off as well.

Best vs Greatest. Skill vs Accolades.

If we are talking just pure skill, there would be way more current players in the top 50 than this sub is willing to admit.

If we rank players by absolute ability ,jordan and LeBron would still be at the top but i don’t think bill russell,jerry west and elgin baylor is making the list or atleast dropping heavily from what most people rank them based on greatness lol

you also have to consider that he is already in the top 25 of most 1st team all-nba selections.

Not to mention FMVP. Goes to show people still haven’t accepted how good he is

Not disagreeing at all, but it’s interesting that whenever we’re in the midst of an MVP race, there are absolutely countless comments about how MVPs dont matter and no one considers them when talking about which players are best.

…but then as soon a topic like this come up, a good 20% of the comments mention MVPs, using them as a critical criteria.

Not saying these are the same people (goomba fallacy, etc.), it’s just crazy how truly wrong the “MVPs don’t matter” folks really are.

Bingo!

He is above Luka. Luka is not a lock. He is not good on defense. It would be close. Top 50 is top 93%. Guess it depends on how you consider players of the 50s and 60s.

Off my head for wings/guards. (Not sure if they are better just think they could be considered.)

Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Dwyane Wade, Elgin Baylor, Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, Scottie Pippen, Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Clyde Drexler, Walt Frazier, James Worthy, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Reggie Miller, Tracy McGrady, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander

Could consider Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum for their overall success as well. Made the ECFs a ton.

Adding Klay Thompson

Dame Lilliard

Dominique Wilkins

Charles Barkley(technically played PF)

Manu Ginobli

Bob Cousy

Dylan, Dylan, Dylan

Kyrie Irving

What’s interesting is Luka had a bunch of 1st-Teams. He is just so un-impactful on defense. For the most part he is basicaly a traffic cone that sucks at help side, can’t help in the paint, but rebounds well.

Then you add the bigs…. He(Luka) may not be top 50 every.

Gary Peyton

Tony Parker

Bill Sharmin(obviously not actually better but ya know what I mean)

Mark Jackson maybe

He isn’t the same tier as a 2 time MVP and finals MVP

I think being in the same category with Luka makes sense but I think Shai’s accolades put him in a different category than both of the other two. He has 2 MVPs and an FMVP while neither Luka nor Tatum have ever achieved one of those feats. And I’m saying this as someone who generally doesn’t think accolades should be the end-all be-all, but when we’re talking top 50 “greatest” players I do think it’s relevant.

Giannis and Jokic are both absolutely top 20.

Giannis: 10x All-Star, 9x All-NBA, 5x All-Defensive, 2x MVP, 1x DPOY, NBA Champion, Finals MVP. 13th all-time in MVP Award Shares

Jokic: 8x All-Star, 8x All-NBA, 3x MVP, NBA Champion, Finals MVP, 2nd all-time in TD, 6th All-Time in MVP Award Shares

both only 31 years old

T-JK instead of T-50, I’ll allow it

I honestly like this boundary way better than a number.

Kawhi is most definitely a top 50 player all time

How is Wemby more of a top 50 guy than Luka/Kawhi? Kawhi has 2 DPOYs and 2 FMVPs and Luka has 6x All NBA first teams and 2 scoring titles

Harden is an absolute lock, he’s got a MVP and a ton of all NBA and all star selections as well as some scoring titles. If AI and Stockton are in the top 50 Harden certainly is too.

They’ve got Ray Allen in the top 50, and while I loved watching the dude play, he only got 2 all NBA selections and never sniffed an MVP. Sure Allen has 2 championships, but he was the 3rd best player on the Celtics and was coming off the bench on the Heat. Kawhi and Luka both have better resumes.

Kawhi’s led 2 different teams to titles. In his prime, he was the best defensive wing of all-time. He’s as much of a lock as KD.

Only 22 players have 6 or more 1st team all nba selections in nba history guess who’s one of them

For reference when thinking basketball made their top 40 list one of the first honorable mentions was Ray Allen.

Ray Allen is a great player but there are quite a few current players who have amassed better careers.

Fair

He is. Maybe a bit over them, but +- on the same tiers

David thompson career is also not comparable to giannis, kawhi lr shai lmao

Thats like WB but with shorter career, none of his playmaking and less relevance. If he’s in your top 50 then Giannis, Kawhi, Shai, Harden, WB are also locks

That’s simply not how I define my list. Counting stats are just not what I go by. I don’t think Westbrook was ever considered the best PG in the world as we know MVP votes during his season were split between Steph and KD as there has been a history of elite teammates splitting votes as well as narrative based arguments.

I don’t think he positively affects the game enough as a first option to be in those talks to the degree of Embiid. I don’t believe in lowering someone after I’ve established them at a certain point because you can’t take away what they’ve accomplished* but since he lost the middy and he had to change his free throw routine he hasn’t really been an asset to any contending team (though I think Denver made archetypical sense and could’ve really used him since he’s left), so I can’t move him up from my initial estimation without redefining my logic and that logic probably isn’t ever going to just have

Mind you, I’m thinking he’s like 58, not 124 (With Embiid just being in that 55 range without really thinking about it). So it’s not outlandish. I just think he’s comfortably outside of it.

*This does not include people surpassing him, in my estimation, or a pure recalibration of my logic, which happens as I watch more basketball obviously.

There is only three years between Jokic and SGA, so I’m not convinced SGA overtakes.

Jokic can lose speed but he will retain his key strengths like size/strength, positioning, touch, strength and brain. SGA relies more on burst to get separation for midranges/free throws. He also still needs to brake and accelerate and direction change, those kind of drives will probably also cause a bit of wear and tear.

I have Dwight in that same tier. He had less All-Star appearances, more All-NBA, and more rebounding titles (not that I give categorial leaders too much weight, but it’s useful when splitting hairs).

Where AD has the edge is that he was the more vital piece on that 2020 Championship squad.

You can’t really go wrong with either of the two best defensive bigs of the last 25 years. I feel like both often get overlooked. Dwight not being on the NBA’s top 75 was criminal.

Im personally on team time machine. Skill level not relative to their era, but absolute.