I don’t think this is true. I think the Kobe discourse is basically the same now as it was before his death.

At least on Reddit. I do not consume basketball content on other social media platforms.

This just isn’t true. I remember being on message boards in the mid 2000s and people were arguing Kobe vs Jordan. When the Lakers beat the Celtics in 2010 I remember multiple people on ESPN saying that ring puts him in the top 3 all time (Michael, Kareem, Kobe).

The discourse around Kobe has always been extreme. I think what you’re seeing is that opinions about Kobe are just louder now that he’s died. But the opinions haven’t really changed.

Kobe has always been a super-contentious player.

During the late aughts, Laker fans were arguing he was a hairs breadth from Jordan, whereas others were arguing that he wasn’t the second best Laker historically.

Following the 2010 Finals, it was widely discussed that he was right behind Jordan in regards to being the greatest ever amongst media. The question was “If he won in 2011, would he surpass Jordan as far as being the greatest ever?”

There were discussions that he had passed Bird and Magic. Duncan wasn’t even a consideration during this time. Kareem was ever someone who was ranked higher as LeBron’s career went on than he was in the 15 years following his retirement. Hakeem as well started rising about 15 years following his retirement.

It’s extremely hard to rank players across the eras. Arguments used against Kobe are selectively not used against other players. The reality is everyone that is in that top 10 range had talent around them or is viewed strictly for their positives during their peak.

Having watched basketball, I’d absolutely take Jordan over Kobe (and anyone else.) But it’s more than fair if someone wants to take Kobe over Magic or Bird or Duncan or Kareem. There are arguments for each and there are no wrong choices at that level. We are discussing the best players of their generation.

No the fuck it wasnt. His peers had him ranked highly in real time

This is not true.

This is the casual take.  The truth about Kobe is that in the beginning of the analytics revolution, mid 2000s so post Shaq, Kobe was the most prepared for player in the league by a wide margin. Teams would have the standard top line defensive and offensive ideas, and a whole separate page on Kobe, how long he like to hold the ball, how many fakes he was likely to do, his shot selection and make rate from every spot on the court down to the meter and the distance he was from how many defenders when he made the choice to shoot dribble or pass. How many dribbles, how was the defense hedging him, etc.

All of the stuff that is baked into the public advance analytics that you can find now on NBA.com, and some of the private analytics, was built to stop Kobe, and he still won two championships after that and could have won more if not for injuries.

I’m not saying he’s Jordan, but he was an unstoppable force in an age when everyone was out to stop him.

I feel like this is one of those situations where someone characterizes people disagreeing with them as getting upset lol I highly doubt anyone gets mad at you, they just disagree because he was already talked about this long before his death

This hasnt been true in my experience.

Laker and Kobe fans have always been rabid, I heard him called the goat since I was a kid in the early 2000s.

People get mad because it’s incorrect and a bit disrespectful to say his death overrated him. We were having Lebron vs Kobe discussion before Lebron vs Jordan.

Kobe being better than Lebron was more of a discussion before 2016(really 2010) than after. It’s just that we see a few loud people, and people always want to generalize.

Kobe had a very storybook ending to his career with his final game in a way that basically no player ever really has. Even Jordan didn’t end his career on such a high note. That combined with his death has really changed the narrative quite a bit. I grew up a Laker fan and remember Kobe was pretty universally hated for a long stretch of his career for being one of the biggest ball hogs we’ve ever seen, now that’s been repackaged as ‘Mamba Mentality’.

??? No, not at all. People were crying over his death. He was beloved by pretty much everybody in basketball. He was the guy for a long time and he was also clearly expanding his legacy beyond basketball.

Not necessarily. Kobe had the same hype as far as being seen as better than LeBron when he was amongst the living, and a top a 5 player by his stans and some NBA regulars, let alone top 10.

Now that he’s passed away, folks have made it harder to have that conversation because some people will hold his passing over you as a type of guilt trip. Or they might say the Jayson Tatum type of line, “y’all didn’t talk about Kobe like this when he was alive.” Which is not true in the slightest.

No lol. He had like one season of somewhat prime Wade, and Bosh, while a very very good player, was never going to be a number one option on a contender.

Kobe’s first three rings absolutely belonged to Shaq.

For his last two rings, Kobe had arguably the best frontcourt in the league. Pau, Odom, and Bynum was an insane lineup.

Also, no one seems to remember that Kobe laid an absolute egg in game 7 of 2010, scoring 23 points on 6-24 from the field. Ron Artest scored 20 points on 18 shots, including a pivotal late game three. As a huge KG fan, I was doubly frustrated because 1) Artest came out of nowhere to steal the game and 2) I knew everyone would forget about Kobe shitting the bed on the biggest possible stage. Sure enough…

Kobe didn’t win shit unless he had an all star big man next him. People will tell ya those players needed Kobe but his laker teams sucked when it was just the Kobe show.

Yeah, if we based the all-time great hoopers based on the opinions of some former NBA players that played in the past 2 decades, Jamal Crawford would be a top 100 NBA player ever, and Iverson would be a top 20 player.

They also usually don’t really care about stats beyond counting stats, which creates inaccuracies and discrepancies from reality vs perception

It’s not even primarily hate, it’s just confusion, same thing with AI.

It’s because nba players seem to really overrate one on one players. But it’s a team game. Being a great one on one scorer is just one aspect of winning, but nba players seem to over value that one particular skill.

It’s always Reddit, an all time great or some media member or current player ranks Kobe in the top 10 and the post includes comments like, “Why is Kobe ranked so high by people who know the game or actually watch the game? I personally have him outside the top 15”

Because he’s never been top three man

Yeah everyone in the bubble was locked in. Ball was literally life at that point.

But LeMickey and ADisney were funny

lakers have an all time win percentage of .704 at home and .485 away. so yes, there is actually a notable difference for the lakers not having home court play

I think people forget Clippers were seen as the pre season favorites and benefited just as much by getting Kawhi into the playoffs healthy. They had their chance and blew it. Plus the Lakers were the only playoff team to lose a rotation player due to the bubble (Avery Bradley)

‘Most injury prone’ while the clippers exist? Okay lol

Literally every team benefited from having 4 months off and not having to travel. Every team had the same advantages and disadvantages. But only the Lakers won the title.

Bron and AD were healthy that season. The time off didn’t benefit them more than other teams

You think they got some big ole’ women down in Angola?

ah yeah that makes perfect sense. I guess I was blinded by resigned indignation

Mario Chalmers telling Lebron to stop playing like a bitch is an all time role player moment though.

They were all washed

It’s entirely possible that a good chunk of r/NBA users were newborns or toddlers when the Heatles were formed. I’m very certain most of this sub never watched the Hakeem/Barkley/Pippen Rockets.

Most of Gen Z act like experts on things they do not even research. Nothing new.

I fell down the well of Jordan react Youtube videos after breaking my ankle earlier this year. It was after FINALLY getting around to watching the Ultimate Mixtape the NBA did of him during COVID. These were LeBron stans who are adamant he is the GOAT. They 99 out of 100 always end up shocked and you can see they realise they have been sold a lie on him thanks to fellow Stans, ESPN, etc and realise MJ was something else all together even compared to their guy. Before it, utmost confidence was nowhere near LeBron in a lot of cases lol.

That also applies for 90s basketball which comes back around to what you said.

Scottie’s body was breaking apart in his final season with MJ at the Bulls. Culminating in Game 6 where he tried on defense, but offensively he had nothing.

Robbed us of more GOATed Lobe and Bron puppet commercials

Because no one watched them play.

I think these discussions are all implicitly “best modern NBA player”. There is just no way to compare to older players like KAJ and especially Russell.

Kareem is up there, but with LeBron being this good at the same age were Kareem was a passenger averaging 14/6/2 and 10/4/1 at the age LeBron is averaging 21/6/7, and won a series being the first option, there’s quite a gap in my opinion.

Kareem has 6 MVPs, more than Jordan or Lebron. It’s kinda crazy how glossed over that is lmao

Not enough sexual assault

He was a good defender for a handful of seasons but at least half of his all-defensive selections were based on reputation and him gambling for steals, more than being a positive team defender 

He’s an elite scorer in the old school sense. But our perception of what makes someone valuable as a scorer has changed. Kobe’s best efficiency season was 06-07 where he had a 580 TS%. He had more seasons under 550 than above it.

Now at the time, that was good for a volume scorer. But he was no more efficient than Carmelo Anthony, who everyone agrees is not a top 10 or 20 or even 25 player of all time. I think a lot of people don’t have Melo in the top 50.

Compare those two to Manu Ginobli. He had a career 580 TS%. He had multiple seasons over 600. He only had three full seasons under 550. Is Manu Ginobli a better scorer than Kobe? Of course not. Was he more efficient? There is no question. Efficiency is valued a lot more these days, so guys like Ginobli are going up in our evaluations and guys like Kobe and Melo drop a bit.

I actually kind of disagree with the person who responded to you. I think Kobe gets more value from his defense than his offense. For his position, he was an average efficiency scorer but an elite defender.

And Kobe bailed Shaq out in the playoffs multiple times which is why Shaq had those opportunities.

Which is why people call them 1A and 1B.

That is completely disingenuous, Scottie was not a difference maker in 1988. He was averaging 7.9 points a game his rookie season playing 20 minutes a game. He didn’t get his first all star till 1990.