Tracy McGrady Tells Vince Carter That Kyle Korver Does Not Belong in The 2003 NBA Draft Debate Alongside LeBron, Wade, Bosh and Melo
Seems like VC is just naming success stories on that draft and he was going to rattle off more names after Korver. He was drafted 51st and had a good career, that’s at least worth the shout out.
Yeah, everyone in this thread getting all frazzled like T Mac. Assuming they haven’t listened to whole pod or just the wider context of this specific part, as I haven’t, definitely seems like Vince is calling out the strength of the draft. Sure he could have split the first 4 names out in a group of their own given they are the greatest of all time + 3 first ballot HoFers, but like you said, seemed like he would have kept going with more names if TMac didn’t cut him off
They were discussing the greatest draft classes ever between 84, 96, and 03. Almost every name that VC listed for the first two classes were inner circle Hall of Famers (worst players he named were Jermaine O’Neal and Stephon Marbury). TMac was thrown off because Korver was a wild name in the context of the other names that were listed prior.
Is it really that much of a jump to go from Stephon Marbury to Kyle Korver?
Especially if you only count Marbury’s NBA career (since we’re talking about the draft)
Going from O’Neal and Mar ury to Korver ain’t that big of a jump like forever is one of the greatest shooters ever.
Korver was a (great) role player. You can throw him on any team and he’d be a good fit, since he had a very specific role. JO and Marbury had rosters built around them. They are not in the same category and that doesn’t take away anything from Korver.
Bosh was (correctly) not a 1st ballot hall of famer.
An all-star whose impact metrics painted him as the 6th-15th best player in the league
Analytically speaking - Kyle Korver is a hall of famer
No bias
6th is wild
I just said that’s what rapm says he peaked at (well it actually says he peaked at 3rd but that’s 1Y rapm which is noisy, 4Y rapm has him 7th).
I think he was pretty clearly a top 30 player though even if he isn’t quite as good as on off data indicates.
It’s hard to explain to people who didn’t watch every Hawks game back then (i.e. the vast majority of people), but his off-ball gravity was like Steph before Steph. His raw scoring numbers were never really particularly high because defenses had to smother him at all times, but you always felt like whenever he actually did get an open look, it was an automatic three points; he was like a human Golden Snitch or something. Even when all he was doing was just running around, the whole offense bent around him and he was constantly opening things up for everyone else just because defenders could never, ever, ever afford to leave him open.
In 2015 he almost went 50/50/90 it was crazy.
KYLE KORVER FOR THREEEEEEEE
It’s stuff like this why so many people don’t take analytics seriously.
I mean he has like a +9pts per hundred impact on teammate rim field goal attempts. To get that level of impact without that elite shooting you are talking top 10 top 5 all time playmakers. Movement shooters are just massive value adds and because korever himself was so efficient too 70% ts when league average was like 54% even though he had massive negative impacts on offensive rebounding and FTR he had a +10 offensive on off in 2015.
Because that’s not how analytics work.
You’re not supposed to take them at face value. Analytics are tools, not conclusions.
Ignoring analytics completely is dumb. But fake “analytics enjoyers” who don’t get that context matters aren’t any better.
Ofc I’m only talking about impact, if korver was expected to be the primary creator on a team that team would suck but when he’s in an appropriate role his impact is equivalent to a superstars.
Similar to caruso.
Part of it is also minutes whether these guys can play the necessary number of minutes.
It’s Derrick White vs Jaylen Brown when the minutes are equal clearly a team like Boston values the guy who’s impact is ridiculous compared to the usage hog.
Yeah the 2003 start was so good because it had the hall of fame guys at the top AND an uncommonly deep tier of really good if not great players
West, Korver, Hinrich, Diaw, Barbosa, Perkins, Josh Howard, Mo Williams, Kaman, etc
Four all stars taken after the lottery and of the players from that draft that actually played in the NBA nearly 20% would make an all-star team.
I feel like Chris Kaman doesn’t get his flowers cause he was on the pre-Lob City Clippers for most of his career. He had his injury issues but still underrated as hell.
Korner is 8th all-time in 3 pointers made. He had a hell of a career!
Korver is like, at worst, the 7th best player in the class? Obviously the top 4 was on a different level that year but being the 6th or 7th best player in one of the greatest draft classes ever is still a notable thing.
If my team’s late 2nd round pic played half as well as Korver, I would be ecstatic
Absolutely. How many players from any given draft class can say they had a career as successful as Korver’s?
Late 2nd rounder that had a damn near 15 year career that was highkey one of the best picks in the draft
You mean Kyle Korver? The guy who got drafted 51st overall by Nets in 2003 and immediately traded to Philly for a copy machine?
Absolutely hilarious. I also remember hearing Bobby Marks(I belive he was the assistant gm) say the copier and they also had some funds to pave the parking lot 🤣🤣
If korvers career starts 10 years later hes got way more than 1 asg. He averaged 12-14 primarily off the bench leading league in 3pt% 4 times. Taking 2-6 a game. If he was able to take 8-10 /game like klay or Kon hed be averaging close to 20 ppg.
Explain joke plz
It’s not a joke. The Nets traded Korver for $125,000 and bought a copy machine with the money.
Nets got a copy machine when they could’ve gotten new chairs for everyone in the office? Clown Franchise.
Not much lumbar support
Let me try the chair again…
no pam beasley in the nets org unfortunately
Damn only got $125k for a 2nd round pick. Now the bulls sell picks for millions. Inflation is crazy.
Gd u ain’t lyin 😂😂😂. Is that allowed anymore?
yes, Lakers Knicks literally did it this year for a 1 pick swap in 2ns round
cheap teams trade 2nds for cash all the time. my dumb owner was doing it every year before we hired a serious front office.
Ain’t the problem ur owners son?
Daddy is the one controlling the money. The son has an unearned front office role and has reportedly been pretty meddlesome in the past (like pushing for the Dejounte trade and pushing Schlenk out) but Saleh seems to be fully in control now thank god. We’ll see when it’s time to pay someone.
Yeah and how’d that work out for the nets lol
They got a new copy machine. lol
Korver’s career outlasted the copy machine tho
Well thats because what the fuck does PC load letter mean
Probably better than it did for the Sixers, they may still be using that copy machine to this day.
I hate it when people bring this up like they don’t have any idea what they’re talking about. It was a really nice copy machine and it could even fax too, you just conveniently left that out I guess?
Gen Alpha: What is fax?
T Mac is being a bit ridiculous, VC just mentioning good players from that draft class and got cut off immediately before he could explain, ofc he is not on the same level as those other guys and I don’t think VC was trying to say that either.
Anyone with 2 brain cells knows Vince was not putting Korver in the same tier as the other 4
So, not Tmac
TMac just seems kinda insufferable in this clip, oof
he’s the friend you chat sports with at the bar and becomes insufferable and turns into a brick wall after a few drinks in his system lol.
Media T-mac is kinda lame honestly. I love him as a player but he mostly goes the old man hater route and its just annoying
He’s giving ESPN debate show
They’re cousins. TMac was just messing with him because that’s what family is for.
I genuinely hate hearing T Mac speak. Old ass hater
A guy that never past the first round think he’s better than Harden and talked about how players should do better in playoffs like stfu
Ironically, he left the Raptors because his agent and others were in his ear saying he’d be more successful if he left.
Easy with the benefit of hindsight, but had he stayed, the early 00s Raptors would’ve been the best team in the East and no doubt would’ve made a finals or two for sure.
Look at the competition:
76ers carried by Iverson
Nets with Kidd, Martin, Jeffersson
Bucks with Allen, Cassell
A Raptors team with Vince and TMac in their early to mid 20s would’ve dominated until the Pistons came along.
You can’t really blame anyone for wanting to get away from the shitshow that was early 00s raptors management.
And NBA players, specifically stars just did not want to play in Canada/Toronto at the time.
Wasn’t Canada coming off of severe economic issues that also helped lead to the Grizzlies leaving Vancouver for Memphis?
Was one of my favorite players growing up and now I can’t stand him….He is the top 5 saltiest old heads….So happy Iverson was the complete opposite of him when giving flowers to other players.
This. The first pair of basketball shoes I bought for myself was a Tmac II and boy…
I mean Tmac was fucking exciting to watch and I really liked him but for some reason, he’s bitter af now. I mean, you can call me a Kobe stan, but I think that prime Tmac was the best player on the offensive end, even better than Kobe.
But he really gotta say tons of shit and that’s really sad because a lot of us (people around my age) grew up loving Tmac and rooting for him. Like obviously I’m rooting for Kobe and the Lakers first but I’m always excited to see Tmac play.
Loved T-Mac in the first few years in Orlando. But that final season there soured me on him.
Yes, the roster was terrible but he showed no leadership skills at all. Got ejected from games due to kicking the ball in the stands. There was also an epic 19 game losing streak with many of the games being close, and prime T-Mac couldn’t will his way to victory.
Any superstar (in their prime) today would get crucified if their team went on a 19 game losing streak.
If there’s one thing Tmac could guarantee, it’s that he’d have a few “quitter” moments every season. Especially if his team wasn’t winning. Dude had so much quit in him. If it weren’t for his attitude and his health, I truly believe we’d be talking about Tmac as a top 10 guy. He just didn’t have that dog in him. He was absolutely not a leader type.
Blue on black Tmac IIs were insane
Dude said he coulda won with Shaq lmao fuck outta here he’d be injured in the playoffs
When he said, there’s no stop it, bro pissed me off. Dude completely misunderstood what Vince was saying but wouldn’t let him explain. At the end of the video the idiot said take it back… like bruh he was just listing off the noteworthy players of that draft shut ur fucking hole and listen lmao
Guy is fucking miserable
Kyle Korver for threeeeeeeeeeeee
Gimme the hot sauce
Give me Killa Kyle Korver over Kyle Lowry!
Vince Carter does not age
Going with the shaved head at a young age is an investment in youthfulness. Low returns in your 20s, solid returns in your 30s, but fantastic returns in your 40s+
It’s more than that. He’s got like no eye bags. No droopy eyelids. Appears natural (aka does not look like Tom Brady).
Came here to say this.
Fr and he’s older than T-Mac but he geniunely looks younger
kyle korver could flat out ball , one of the greatest three balls of all time
Yep. I didn’t realize he was in the league until 2020. Getting drafted in 2003 and playing THAT long while averaging 10 points is a hell of a career. He’s hating hard.
8th all time in 3s (more than Durant) while often coming off the bench too. Tmac is massively disrespecting Korver. I don’t expect smart stuff from Tmac though. He’s a huge hater.
For real, he was literally an all star
ofc he doesn’t what???
1x all star for Kyle. Everyone else on that list has made double digit all star teams
Yeah if you don’t think a guy who made the all star team after being drafted 51st overall is a success story I don’t know what to tell you.
Ain’t no way in hell Chris Bosh has double digit all-star appearances
Why is this a conversation they’re having? Korver was one of the best shooters of all time, but that was literally it
He was just naming good players in the draft.
I’m sure he would’ve carried on going to guys like Diaw, David West, Barbosa etc
Shooters and hair. SMH the disrespect
T-Mac just doesn’t understand it takes more than just the first round to look at the body of work.
just out of curiosity, i tried googling the 2003 nba draft class to see which name should be listed ahead of Korver and goddang the list of the remaining names is pretty barebone. Vince wasnt wrong here, Tmac is just being a hater for no reason.
2x Allstar David West Allstar Chris Kaman Allstar Mo Williams Most Improved Player Boris Diaw
Yea but they’re also not in the same league as LeBron. Vince probably was gonna name a few of them before being cut off by Tmac. Tmac kinda insinuate that only 4 names of those can be mentioned full stop. The rest doesnt matter.
They’re a good debate for the 5th of the class but Korver is not a wrong take, since Vince looked like mentioning names from the impact/importance metric in his head, which makes sense he put LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Melo in that order. 5th man is not very defined though and Vince’s take on Korver is still legit here.
Kinda like the Jordan’s class where people can conveniently named Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, Stockton, and then the fifth name is gonna differ between whom you ask, it could be Sam Perkins, it could be Alvin Robertson, all legit choices for the 5th name but not as defined as 1-4.
Could argue West and maybe Diaw should be named before Korver but not Mo and Kaman. Great players who strengthen the draft but Korver is one of the most accurate shooters of all time and played longer than those other 4
Yeah 1 season Boris Diaw or Mo maybe but Korver is 6th all time in made 3s. Almost 3x as many 3pts made as Mcgrady.
Kyle Korver was also an allstar. He was probably reading off a list of guys ranked by win shares or something.
What? That’s not true. 03 is one of the deepest draft classes ever.
Chris Kaman, Josh Howard, David West, Mo Williams all made the all star team.
You also had Hinrich (all defense), Barbosa (6MOY), Diaw (MIP), and Perkins (starter on a championship team) in 03.
03 is along with 84 and 96 among the best draft classes ever.
Yeah, 96 > 84 > 03 just based on the guys after the big 3⁄4
If discussing the best draft class of all time, which is what I assume the discussion is about, then how the hell would you not bring up one of the best 3 point shooters of all time? Of course hes no LeBron or Wade. But he absolutely adds to the debate of best draft class. As you not only have all time greats, but all time role players as well, like Boris Diaw and Korver
And also Kirk Hinrich
kirk was an underrated PG for sure
If were mentioned elite to good players from a draft class then yeah Korver deserves to be called out as a good player. All star, most accurate shooter in NBA history. If you have an all time record you deserve to be named.
Vince Carter does not age. Honestly looks like young VC here.
Helps when you’re bald
TMac is Michael Jordan in his mind 😂
He said on a podcast with Shaq that he could win titles in San Antonio 😂😂😂😂
T-Mac sounds clinically insane sometimes
I mean maybe but hes better than Korver
Korver contributed to more winning and I had all the t Mac gear growing up
Damn, Disrespecting my favorite player
disrespect
I mean when you are discussing how good a draft class was I think mentioning the guy who is 8th all time in threes made is fine.
TMac has always been an insecure bitch. He’s more skilled yes, but Korver is 100000x the dog he is
Lol this is not a serious subreddit
Vince > TMac.
I’d take Korver over Melo
Tmac is all ego and it annoys me.
There’s a reason why Lebron wanted Kyle Korver on his team.
He was just naming all the all stars. He wasn’t comparing them or debating ranking.
Who in this subreddit wouldnt want Kyle Korvers career? Bro was successful in the league and thats all that matters forreal
Damn, every time McGrady talks I dislike the guy more and more. He won’t even let Vince get his point in to understand what he’s saying.
“No, there ain’t no stop”.
Let Half Man Half Amazing cook, TMac. Not only ALL STAR Kyle Korver but…
DAVID WEST… MO WILLIAMS… JOSH… HOWARD… CHRIS… KAMAN…
Then you have your high level role players… Mikael Pietrus… Boris Diaw… Zaza Pachulia…
And last but not least 13 year player Mr. New Hampshire, himself, Matt Bonner.
Kyle korver might have the weakest all-star case ever
Obviously was not sustainable in the playoffs but Korver was the offensive enginr that made that Hawks team win 60 games. The other 3 all stars were great but their offense revolved around that above the break screen for Korver.
Korver wasnt no damn offensive engine
He was if you watched how the Hawks ran their offense through him. Big difference from how his teams utilized him before and after that.
Homie, none of those guys are part of a debate that includes Lebron.
McGrady just spouts horrible takes. This 1st round virgin loser thinks he’s in tier with the other greats.
oh brother MFC 2820
Could have also mention David West.
Out of my head, my memories say, David West had a bigger peak and impact than Korver, who was always a support player, never the leader of a team.
I also remember before 2003 Draft, people already said it was the strongest Draft of Alltime at that time.
On a side note, it just happened that Wade was in that draft, because he missed a college year because of bad grades.
David West was the next name he said after Korver in the actual podcast before TMac cut him off to talk about Korver.
I think it really depends on what you value. I do agree with you but I can also see the argument for Korver.
David West as a “leader of a team” isn’t going to bring you anywhere. He can do the tough job fairly well. No unhappiness but you know it isn’t really going anywhere.
Korver as a shooter in the system can fulfill that role very very well. You can say he does the not-so-difficult job exceedingly well.
It’s kinda like the issue of big fish in a small pond or small fish in a big pond. There really isn’t a right/wrong answer.
T-Mac has been sensitive af lately.
Lately? Only lately?
This is how men/cousins argue about sports
“Take that back.”
Bro this segment is NOT that serious.
Just looked it up - Korver played in 95 more playoff games than T Mac. T Mac is lucky people forget he’s one of the biggest playoff losers of all time.
Kyle Korver had as good of a career that any player can dream of.
T Mac did u ever make it out of hte first round for someone who talks so much
Korver belongs here
Sassy boy lol
Tracy McFaddey talking about anything is so false.
I love Kyle Korver but he’s not in the same league as the others
He was a very good role player essentially
Korver? We talking about Korver? Korver?
Tracy midgrady
TMac is right, Korver was a crazy name to bring up in the flow of the conversation they were having. They were discussing the best draft classes ever and paraphrasing, the list of players and topics Vince rattled off in order was:
1984
Jordan
Olajuwon
Barkley
Stockton
Combined somewhere between 10-11 championship, 6 MVPs, 2 DPOYs
1996
Kobe
AI
Ray Allen
Nash
Marbury
Jermaine O’Neal
11 All Stars, 4 regular season MVPs, 19 NBA Championships
2003
Lebron
Wade
Melo
Bosh
Korver
David West
All time leading scorer (that’s when TMac cuts him off)
Oh this is the Willie Green draft. Sixers lucked out with these two legends!
He was just naming successful players from that draft. Obviously the big 3 but that draft class is stacked with quality players with long careers.
TMac hating like a loser
The fuck he need to hate on korver for? Dude just keeping it 100. Nobody thinks of korver when they think about that draft.
Kyle Korver could have been taken as an early 1st rounder in many draft ngl.
VC has barely aged!
Kyle Korver is like the 6th best player in this 2003 draft career wise, behind Lebron, DWade, Bosh, Carmelo, and DWest. He’s also one of the 9 players from this draft that made an all star game and lead Atlanta to a 1st seed in a conference that has Lebron James. He was also Klay Thompson before Klay Thompson, a sharpshooter that can get hot anytime. Give some respect to his name.
God damn I’ve looked at Korvers shooting %s several times over the years and still everytime I do again I smh, incredible.
They are definitely family 🤣
The amount of ground Korver made up to be a player of historic note is commendable… he got traded for office equipment… these guys sometimes indirectly gatekeep their own positions and get away from discussing the player at hand’s own merit.. sure peak both of you are better, but discussing Kyle as KYLE isn’t going to diminish you… player discourse is lame af sometimes.
VC is hilarious 😂
Darko Miličić disrespect
T mac seems like a miserable person.
But then T-Mac thinks he can me mentioned in the same breath as Kobe
T Mac really gunna be the next annoying old head huh
Cuzzins lol always arguing lol
Jeff Teague has said multiple times that Korver’s gravity was THE most important part of their offense the year they were the 1 seed and just had high praise for his value overall for the Hawks. Considering the mostly playful banter between Jeff Teague and TMac starting from their time as teammates, I’m sure Club 520 would love to host TMac again and debate this.
Bro was legit trying to take it back, and Mac still wasn’t satisfied lmao
I don’t have anything to add to their conversation but I just wanna say T Mac visibly aged while Vince still looks like when I saw him in ‘05
T Mac always comes off as a bit pretentious, every comment that I hear from him always leave me questioning why would he say that. It just diminishes him, it feels like he is always butthurt about not really accomplishing any team winning with him as the best guy.
People forget about David West when talking about this draft. He was fantastic. Not far off from Bosh in my opinion.
Big if true
Token white guy
This is like a diet Paul Pierce-KG fight. T-Mac trying too hard to be like Garnett with his takes.
Love T Mac but I always got vibes that he was a dick from hearing stories about him and this clip still has me leaning in that direction
Yall love to find any reason to dunk on someone. I can’t imagine having the energy
Kyle korver better career than Melo 🤫
This is epitome of a podcast I don’t want to listen to
L tmac
T Mac a hater lol
Korver as a role player > Melo as a superstar
T Mac comes off as jealous and bitter here. Really ugly look from him.
We will not tolerate American Eagle slander!
I can’t stand T Mac
I love TMac as a player but he’s sooo bad as an analyst lol still all love but I a disagree with a lot of his takes
Tmac is a fool
I remember Korver’s March Madness run and was wild to me he fell 51st overall. He should have been a 1st rounder.
And that’s why them two never worked one in Raps Uni.
Good takin with ya , lol
I’m not gonna watch the clip because the caption is making me laugh and I don’t want context to ruin that for me.
you know your podcast sucks if you have to edit CLIPS to make it seem good lol
More names in the title please
yeah, Korver is one of the most overrated bums the NBA ever saw.
If by “overrated” you mean “underrated”, then I agree.
In this case he’s not really lying but Korver had a solid career nonetheless but putting him next to those names that’s a set up
LeBron, Wade, and Bosh came into to league together..lmao that why they thought it was a super team. 1st. 4th.5th pick …. It makes since…..but LeBron is the goat of basketball and they’re retired now…. He should’ve picked another team.. and before everyone @ me about Jordan… Cavilers never gave LeBron players that’s why he left but evidently he came back an won Cleveland a championship….
Why does Tracy McGrady look like a stud?
Tracy McGrady is just really dumb, huh?
Tmac is racist confirmed