Small sample sizes with some of this stuff, so it’s difficult to extrapolate a lot imo. But we do remember from the OKC series that Harper + Castle (No Fox) was prone to racking up turnovers like crazy.

I think the spirit of the issue is more that Harper should eventually be given the keys over Fox, say as early as next season.

I agree with your assessment though generally. Mitch was going to ride or die with Fox this series, because he probably suspected the offense would struggle too much. There wasn’t really a good solution for this specific year.

The fact finals watchers dont wanna accept is they wouldnt have been there without Fox and he wasnt the only reason they lost. Mitch Wemby Fox take majority blame and then Castle. Only Harper shined through and through.

Regardless the fact they were there is seriously impressive and we cant take anything away from them.

done with spreadsheets
done with advanced stats
done with anything that involves a formula

basketball is about who’s a bitch and who isn’t

The “Fox single handedly sold the Finals” meme is funny and super popular but you onto something here

Imo the two Spurs who caused the greatest issues were Castle and Keldon Johnson

Castle’s defense was beyond incredible but his offense struggled every game and he couldn’t knock down open 3’s. So when he’s on the court they lacked offensive creation and shooting, which you just cant have from a guard

KJ was actually the most negatively impactful Spur imo. The bench is insanely important in the playoffs and the guy spearheading that bench did virtually nothing all series. Then it becomes harder to rest starters without letting up runs. Then you run into fatigue problems and mistakes. Many of the Spurs problems can be traced back to an over reliance on their starters and their #1 bench player (6MOTY btw) is competely escaping criticism

The Thunder didn’t have enough wing defenders left to guard all 3 guards especially with Wemby also on the court. There was always going to be a mismatch to hunt. The reason the Spurs looked worse without Fox offensively vs NY was because he soaked up OG as a primary defender. When he wasn’t on there OG got to guard one of the young guards or Wemby all of which he was torturing. He tortured Fox too but it at least left one of the guys with a mismatch.

That doesn’t mean they should keep Fox though. They should still try to use Fox to get a big wing or real PF. If they weren’t depending on 4 guards as their best offensive options they may have won this series. They have absolutely no lineup versatility with the team as it stands

Castle and Harper can’t shoot, despite a little stretch of the season where they got hot on low volume. 28% on 5 attempts and 30% on 4 attempts for the series is horrible for your guards.

They 100% don’t even beat OKC and get to the finals without Fox. The guy didn’t play to his top level in the finals no one on that team did. His contract is bad but people knew that when he signed it. There’s no magical scenario where they bench Fox and sweep the Knicks. The Knicks are just better.

Spurs is a great org. They didnt draft 2 PG and traded for one for no reason. I think Fox high ankle sprain is still bothering him

This has been a thing all season. Castle being benched always let the offense flourish.

The spurs wanted him to play point when he has no business playing that role. He’s best utilized playing off ball but they just gave him too many responsibilities that he couldn’t handle.

I will not excuses Fox’s play this finals. He should have shown up and he didn’t but a lot of it is on the spurs and the coaching staff forcing the castle PG gimmick. It just throws the flow completely off.

Before anyone says he’s “young” etc… you just don’t delegate a player you just max contract to the corner so that a sophomore can play and try to learn point guard. The only one that should have had any business getting reps at point was Harper.

You know how damn frustrating it was watching castle bring the ball up when Harper or Fox should have been the one doing it? His turnovers and decisions all season were so unbearable it was honestly shocking that we won 60 games and made it to the finals.

It should have always been Fox and Harper as the main ball handlers but I guess the spurs took this season as an experiment and did not expect to go this far and stuck to the game plan no matter what.

Not totally related but my takeaway from the finals is how much Castle needs to develop. Tenacious defender but always in foul trouble (and frankly should’ve been called for far more). He was great going to the basket but any time he shot from any distance Knicks fans sighed in relief. Turns the ball over a lot, just very out of control.

He’s super young and it’s not fair to be so critical of him compared to other guys his age, but that’s the reality of making it this far.

Anuhlytics, Erneh

Castle is too good defensively. Even last night you couldn’t take him out. The pieces don’t fit together so naturally. That’s ok due to the sheer talent.

Unpopular take but if the Spurs switch to Castle-Harper as their guard combo they probably don’t make the WCF next year. Poor shooting, TOs, inability to feed Wemby the ball, lack of playmaking… People forget how bad the Spurs were when Fox was injured or before they traded for him.

Possibly the best move for the Spurs is probably to trade Harper for a win now treasure trove - upgrade at PG over Fox, backup C, proper sized PF. His value is at a high and his shooting / playmaking weaknesses havent been highlighted because of his smaller role.

As great as it is having 3 ball handlers like them at their level, none of them can shoot for shit. Their roster is still deeply flawed snd got exposed. They essentially have 2 shooters, and both are pretty streaky. Funny to see them get a shallow paint touch only to kick it out to…Harper or Fox. BRICK!!! 

He did the math

You don’t need stats you just need eyes. Fox was playing like he was brain dead and Castle took a few strolls through there himself but at least has amazing defense. Harper however was mind blowing for a rookie just based on eye test. He’s obviously the guy that needs the keys given to him to be the primary ball handler if they don’t somehow pick up an insanely talented floor general.

Fox can do some cool things but just as we all suspected when they traded for him his skill set doesn’t quite mesh. They need smart passers and high % shooting. Fox rolled that ankle and deleted just about everything positive about his game on the spot and we were just watching him usually be a bit smarter with the ball in his hands due to experience but not being able to push the pace and not being a lights out shooter crippled him beyond that. We simply can’t keep him because he costs too much money to be that flawed. I honestly expect us to take any moderately decent looking trade that has us ship out a first or whatever for someone else to take him

Castle literally won the game for them against the Knicks..what even is that?

The reason Castle and Harper weren’t as effective together offensively is they played significantly less minutes together than they did when Fox. Add in that their jumpers were shaky against the Knicks, and that’s what you get.

Neither Castle or Harper can run an offense like Fox does. But Fox was obviously bothered by injury at times and Johnson just kept him out there.

He also made no adjustments to pull Fox when underperforming in the earlier games then kept Castle in game 5 when he was clearly in his head and missed some big shots and a vital free throw.

The Spurs biggest personnel issue this series was not having a real 4.

In my opinion Fox should stay but change roles a bit. I’d go with Devin as 6th man and turn Fox into more of a facilitator (which he can do quite well) instead of the final focal point of the offense.

Harper should be the go-to guy in the clutch when we need someone to create a bucket out of nothing. But Fox in the pnr can shine with Castle and Harper as slashers + Vassell as the 4 (depending on matchup obviously).

Next season’s focus should be to develop the Harper/Wemby two-man game as much as possible while hoping Carter Bryant takes a leap. Ideally KJ’s minutes decrease, too.

Edit: the main reason Fox should stay is that he’s hard to deal for a good return, with that contract. Unless it’s trade deadline and some team is desperate.

This right here is what majority of Spurs fan doesn’t wanna accept, and got majority of Knicks fan clowning bunch of 20+ year olds imploding in Finals. The team is too young and inexperienced, load of these implosions are heavily on the coach rather than the players. The team is too raw but they got there through sheer talent. Expect them to be better next year, esp if they get the whole bench situation sorted.

Tired of all the casual takes I’m reading in this sub. Glad y’all gonna go silent again for the next 10 months.

its really not

The Spurs need to trade one of their three point cards for an elite wing player.

Fox got them there i dont think there’s an argument against this, but he was also choking hard in the finals - he needed to be pulled, if the others also choked then you lost without what-ifs; the odds of Fox making a comeback after game 4 last play blunder is slim

I say run it back but add another big man behind Kornet who can actually play minutes and a PF. On a side note, what happened to Harrison Barnes in the series?

Kornet minutes were hell. But I’m not a spurs fan that has to root for him, so I can still thank Kornet for saving basketball with his game 7 block. This series was way more entertaining as a neutral than any game watching the Thunder flop around every goddamn game.

They need either a stretch PF (Myles Turner / Michael Porter) or a SF/PF that is strong and can board and score (Sabonis / PJ Washington). Wemby will never be strong enough to take the banging down low and Keldon was just not strong enough to make much of a difference in rebounding or scoring and the opposing team could just put their strongest guy on Wemby and not worry because everyone else on the spurs is to weak to really bang around. This is more important than having another guard that can’t shoot.

The Spurs and NBA media will try to tiptoe around this to help the Spurs move off Fox. But Fox, after his playoff performance is a negative value on that contract. And more importantly, the Spurs have a better overall player, Harper, playing behind him. Fox will be moved to some unfortunate team while the media crows what a great move it is ‘acquiring the former clutch player of the year coming off a recent finals run’.

I think there is a nonzero chance they forced more Fox minutes as sort of a sales job. It was pretty clear to me when he was playing less or out injured how well oiled that team operated. Just less fuckups overall is my layman’s view of the games when he wasn’t playing as much. But once he was reinjected into high minutes everything sort of changes for each of them. Sure, that was a whole lot of offensive firepower kicking in gear early in games. But once everyone gets a little tired later you start to see the exceptionalism fall off for some, and for others that’s just when it gets going. Players worth the money hang to that end. Some can’t.

They have to move off Fox somehow. How is that going to happen? My hope is no team in the league helps them off his contract. But I do think that is why they played him so much this series maybe even knowing they might possibly lose for it. Harper, Castle, even Champagnie, gotta be kept and somehow will need to be paid or they start losing these players. When you already have FOX making up to 61 and Wemby of course is going to get the 50-60 max/supermax extension in what, this very next year or less? How do they pay anyone already paying 50-60 to two different players?

Mediocre players who got exposed