Walt Fraizer: “Thibs never believed in developing the bench… and eventually that cost him his job.”
Thibs dream is a starting lineup of 5 Mikal Bridges
Thibs’ wet dream is 5 Josh Harts. All 48 minutes. No subs.
Triple overtime.
Remember when Hart played like 200 minutes straight in the playoffs against Philly a few years ago? 48 minutes a game and one game went to overtime, he played every minute. Ridiculous
Unironically built up his stamina and now he’s crashing boards every minute he’s on.
Wemby could never
Wemby should never. His frame is a constant injury risk, and he should be applied appropriately.
I’m surprised trading away IQ didn’t kill Thibs. That boy got one hell of a motor.
5 Mitch Robs with Josh’s hustle and Mikal’s durability.
Drawback is they’d still have MRobs FTs 😳
Not a problem. Every missed FT becomes a 2pt putback dunk.
That’s not… well… yeah, you’ve got a point lol
No, it’s a put back so he’d get two points.
That he gets fouled on, so it becomes an infinite loop of missed FTs and putback dunks
So my thinking was nope, the other team would be out of players. However, I went digging into the rule book and it says this: ‘If a team is reduced to exactly five eligible players and one of them gets their sixth personal foul, the player actually stays in the game. The player is assessed a technical foul and the opposing team shoots a free throw, but it ensures the team can still field a legal five-man unit.’
So you would just get more freethrows. Would be a spectacle to behold lol
he already shoots them like he’s trying for a 2 pt play so this works out perfect
going to need to give him Hart’s cardio as well if you give him Hart’s hustle
Nah, 5 Taj Gibsons.
Only 48? Triple OT also.
Cmon y’all Luol Deng and Jimmy Butler were his true first loves.
He should go coach at Siena then lol
Think of the rebounding in that squad!
Mine too tbh
Gonna cost you 25 first round picks
Id rather trade 5 Kevin Durants for them
FUCK THEM PICKS
thats like the whole 1st round worth of picks
A Thibs starting lineup of Mikal Bridges, Josh Hart, Jimmy Butler, Luol Deng, and Taj Gibson would play 48 minutes a game lmao
I lowkey kinda wanna see how far a Thibs-coached team with that lineup would go. Someone needs to sim that on 2K.
Thibs never evolved from the 90’s mindset, when every team had one starting five and one solid guy from the bench and nothing more, all for 82 games + playoffs.
No adjustment allowed, even if the starting five wasn’t working against certain teams. The top 2-3 players in each team sometimes were playing more or less 40min a game, even in rs.
You spelled Taj Gibson wrong.
More like 2 josh harts 2 mikals and a mitch rob lol
When he coached Chicago he loved using the bench. Made bad players good, and even the worst players got minutes. Wonder what changed
I mean he did overuse the core trio of Rose, Noah and Deng/Butler but the rest of the minutes were usually spread out down to the 11th guy
Needs more Taj Gibson
You would think but Bridges actually clashed quite a bit with Thibs over his role
Funniest part is Bridges hated him
*Joakhim Noah
That’s a peak lineup
He really took Mikal’s ironman streak as a personal challenge lol
Doing cardio and shit
Both Alvarado and Shamet have had huge impacts these playoffs. And I doubt either gets a chance if Thibs is coaching
Brown ran a Brunson/ Alvarado in Game 4 in the 4th quarter. Thibs would never have done that.
Og would’ve played center for 23 minutes after Kat got in foul trouble
For sure
Both had huge moments in the 4Q of the comeback games against the Cavs and the Spurs!
I mean at one point the Knicks had an all bench lineup plus Bridges I think in the 4Q of Game 2 and they actually won those minutes. Inconceivable under Thibs
Obviously Brown is not a perfect coach but his willingness to adapt and try things had made a huge difference
I think Mike Brown deserves a shit ton of credit. A lot of people thought it was a lateral hire, Myself included. And Brown has shown he was an upgrade and exactly what the Knicks needed to get them to the mountain top instead of just short
Funny because at the time I thought he was buggin’ not having KAT or Brunson out there. But Mikal was in a groove that game!
He also gave the starters more rest throughout the regular season so they were more fresh heading into the playoffe, which was an issue under Thibs last season.
Brown has been experimenting different lineups all playoffs and it’s been awesome to see.
I saw a clip showing how Mike brown did a great job subbing guys in trying to find the best mix. There were times that even the players thought they were coming out but it was actually someone else because Mike Brown wanted to switch it up.
I kept wondering when Alvarado was gonna get exposed and forced off the court, but it never happened. Dude showed out in G4. His defense on Castle/Harper/Fox was great.
e: now that I think about it, Bridges was on the bench most of the 4th. Alvarado really played a guy who the Knicks traded 5 firsts for off the court. Thats some real dawg shit.
Yeah thibs would’ve said, “something something, need size out there.” Lol
Brilliant substitution on Brown’s part
Shit Brown never did that before Game 4 if I remember right. That was a brand new lineup combo was it not?
We ran Brunson /Alvarado backcourt some during the regular season
He would, for 3 minutes in the 1st Quarter after going down 3-1 to the Spurs
I love how brown is quick to adapt and at least tryyyy things. Almost all of the bench that was so hot before and used frequently has gone ice cold for all or most of the series—Landry, deuce, clarkson—but Mike will just give them the hook, try something else
Shamet and Delon Wright played well last postseason for Thibs. McBride/Robinson usually played. The Towns/Brunson lineups were struggling defensively.
Shamet and Wright only played at the very end of the ECF when Thibs was grasping at straws. It was way too late.
Shamet and Delon didn’t see any minutes all playoffs until after the Knicks were down 2-0 against the Pacers and Thibs was forced to mix it up.
Thibs would’ve done it, if the Knicks were already down 3-1 and he was just relying on Hail Marys. I won’t forget the 2025 ECF where he had Delon Wright playing out of nowhere.
What are the odds Ime Udoka is doing any self-reflection right now?
(Spoiler: he’s not)
It still baffled me how this coaching philosophy has proven to not work but he keeps doing it. Like you do this shit in high school.
It’s because it works in the regular season, and he’s had some really tough players, so you can convince yourself over and over that this time it’ll translate in the playoffs.
Regular season you are playing bad teams as well.
Or better teams trying less hard (not running their stars into the ground) because they know the postseason is ahead
Exactly. Thibs coaches every game like it’s a Game 7.
And it has gotten his teams fairly deep in the playoffs with some regularity
It’s also why Thibs, out of all coaches, tend to have a cast of players just kinda follow him around wherever he goes. He’s like the Wes Anderson of the NBA. Takes on many coaching jobs but with the same players over and over again.
Is Thibs the Mike Shanahan of the NBA?
Because he is amazingly good at raising the ceiling of underperforming teams. It’s just that his ceiling raise only gets 90% of the way.
Fr, and he was super important in developing this team bc now they have the crazy conditioning to pull off these 4th quarter comebacks when everyone’s gassed. Plenty of teams could and should try to bring Thibs in to develop their guys and get them back on track culture-wise, you just have to understand you will eventually have to move on to the coach you think can actually win you a ring after Thibs
It’s hard to overstate what Thibs meant to this franchise. He was a complete culture reset, he came in and immediately brought a shitty roster to the playoffs. We’re not where we are without him coming here and resetting everything. I also think alot of this current teams defensive identity is a holdover from Thibs.
Elfrid Payton was the starting PG on a 4-seed. Immaculate work that season
Not just the defensive identity, but the entire mindset of the team’s core is because of Tom Thibodeau. Most teams would fold after being down that much and most teams wouldn’t be able to play as hard as the Knicks do the entire game. That’s because of him and the amazing training staff that the Knicks have.
He deserves a lot of respect and gratitude even though I don’t believe for one second he could get the 2026 team to where it currently is.
That last bit sums it up, gotta be grateful for what Thibs did for everyone’s development even if he wasn’t going to get you over the line - like 5 teams at minimum right now should be clamoring for him
I hope we give thibs a ring if we win. He’s as much a part of this run as anyone else. He’s laid this foundation and scrappy mentality this team has.
You mean raise the floor of teams
Raising the floor* imo
This. Only Bulls & Knicks fans truly understand the duality of Thibs. We love the guy to death for being a floor raiser, but he’ll never win a Finals as a HC due to his mindset.
(Minny fans never got to see the good part of Thibs fwiw)
when you need to completely reset a team culture, there is nobody better than thibs. he should be in high demand every year.
There’s a certain level of ego with coaches, especially ones who have failed and had media scrutinize their philosophy. It makes some want to double down to prove to everyone they were right.
Honestly, it can work, it’s just the path of most resistance. It’s not that it’s proven to not work as much as it is unlikely to work as well as other approaches do.
The big issue is that Thibs’ style is too heavily reliant on luck to avoid injuries and overtime games, and he’s too rigid to adapt when those things occur. It’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy because the extra minutes on starters obviously cause more playoff injuries, fewer bench minutes renders those players largely useless, and the lack of useful bench options then necessitates the excessive starter minutes. But still, if you can somehow avoid the injuries to starters, he can usually still motivate the team to punch well above its weight and mitigate the fatigue and shallow rotation.
I’d say that Thibs’ approach is kinda like opening a can of beans with a manual can opener. It works perfectly well in its own right, but you’re pretty unlikely to be able to open more cans than a guy with an electric can opener. It’s not impossible, it’s just needlessly difficult.
Yup, he did get to the Conference Finals but even then it was tough. And it wasn’t enough against the Pacers.
That being said, I do believe the 2025 Pacers that eliminated the Knicks are better than the 2026 Spurs (at least through the first 4 games of this series)- because of the Pacers style of play, Halliburton’s clutch play, and better coaching from the Pacers. But yeah the 2026 Knicks on paper look significantly better than last year’s itteration.
I think what happened was his first team as a head coach was the 2010 Bulls which had an amazing bench. So he just had unreasonable expectations for what a bench should be.
Thibs breaks players then rebuilds them with more stamina and endurance. But that’s about it. They can outlast other teams that way
And he keeps getting hired. We have been saying/hearing the same shit since 2010
Its because he gets close, and most coaches dont win. So its easy to blame others for it falling short. Commitment and persisting gets so many results they probably just tell themselves that and get stuck in a loop. Also some coaches see players as tools with a set evaluation for the job and not humans who can grow/change. Its a bit tragic for Thibs, i wanted him to get out of his own way.
And it isn’t just the capabilities of the bench players either. Before we had Alvarado, when deuce and shamet were both injured we had Kolek playing meaningful minutes. That just isn’t something Thibs would do
I thought he played well during the season, but that was just me catching a few minutes here and there. Has he played in the playoffs? I thought as well as I thought he did, he would find some minutes at some point. I know having Duece and Alvarado in front of him makes it tough, but I still thought he showed some promise.
He played alright, had some pretty rough turnovers whenever he got minutes in the regular season and I felt like his shot selection left some to be desired. i dont recall him playing at all in the finals, but he’s played in garbage time in the playoffs. im just so grateful we have a bench this deep
Kolek def showed some promise the area he struggles with is ball pressure.
Nah we already have four guards off the bench ahead of him (Deuce, Jose, Shamet, Clarkson).
I think he was great for the brunson less minutes because he can playmake really well. It felt like every time he was out there he was good for 3-4 assists a stretch. I think he played garbage time minutes in the earlier rounds but I don’t think I’ve seen him this finals
His defense is pretty rough. Alvarado gives you 80-90% of what he can do on offense, but with a much stronger defensive presence.
Diawara played actual good minutes for this team for a chunk of the season and looked competent the whole time.
Kevin McCullar Jr. won us a game this year
His role will definitely increase in future seasons.
He ran his starters heavy but in Chicago our bench was definitely developed. It was literally nicknamed the Bench Mob and was universally loved by the city. Huge part of that was because of the way Stacey King talked about them guys 😞.
He played guys off the bench that were actually good and he could trust them. He played Mitch, Deuce, and Hart (when he was on the bench) enough minutes. But he was one of those coaches that believed in playing 8 guys but giving them enough minutes. He’s not the only coach that did that.
Thibs’ thing is he quickly decides whether or not you’re his kind of player. If you are, you get a very long leash. If you aren’t, he might not talk to you, you’re only playing if there’s a front office mandate, and the second you make a mistake he pulls you.
Yep
He did develop Jimmy
Those Chicago teams had a good ass bench though. Taj Gibson, cj watson, omer asik! I’m missing some im sure.
Some of my favorite teams ever tbh were under Thibs in Chicago.
In defense of thibs, knicks bench last year was not good. However he could’ve played Shamet and delon wright more in the first two rounds of the playoffs
Forgetting my man Captain Kirk Hinrich
we also had very good bench players that knew their roles.
Still hurts
The Alvarado substitution is what won game 4 imo, that and Spurs being complete idiots. JA gave them 15 amazing minutes! Thibs would never lol
Pure facts from the OG legend
It’s a bit revisionist tbh and not very close to the truth. Deuce McBride and Mitchell Robinson both made very big leaps under Thibs, and Hartenstein would be making a shit ton less money than he is rn if he had any other coach before joining OKC. None of those guys were regular starters. Let’s not forget Quickly either, he owes every dollar he’s making to Thibs as well.
And if you’re putting time into developing a 34 year old Jordan clarkson you have no fucking clue what you’re doing as a coach.
I think there is a lot to say about the rotations and the over reliance on starters especially in the 3rd quarter but the Knicks have been squeezing talent out of late draft picks and other people’s leftovers for a very long time regardless of the staff. It’s retention and prioritization that’s usually been the issue since 2019
Even a contentious wind bag like SAS is respectful of Clyde.
Clyde is too cool to disrespect
It’s interesting to think about how things would have shook out if Thibs were still the coach this year. They had a much easier run through the East than last year, and in the Finals no bench player who was on the team last year aside from Mitchell Robinson (who hasn’t been great) is playing more than six minutes per game
I agree that we had an easier run this year than last year with Pacers being out and not even going through the Celtics, nor Pistons. And we will obviously never know if Thibs was coaching this year. However, Brown did unlock KAT with the offensive hub running through him. Brown has made the right calls again and again and given Shamet and Alvarado chances to make big plays, which they have.
We are definitely a better team than last year. I agree with Clyde here.
Not to take anything away from Brown, but that was KAT’s idea
True. Thank you for reminding me that. I do remember Brown speaking about it and how he needs to adjust to his players. Legit question - Do you think if KAT suggested that to Thibs, would Thibs go with it as Brown has?
I think it’s up in the air Mike Brown had some games where he didn’t close with Hart or Bridges that led to wins something that would have never happened under Thibs. I think we still make it to the finals but all of our series would have been 6 or 7 game grinds. By the time we got to the finals we would prob be too tired.
Shamet was on the team last year. Everyone forgets how criminally misused he was by Thibs.
Brown is way more flexible with his lineups and our offensive system is light years ahead of last year’s team. I’m not convinced we make it past the Hawks if this is still Thibs.
Shamet’s a good point, he’s had a great resurgence. You guys made it past the defending champion Celtics, but you don’t think you would have beaten CJ McCollum?
I mean we were down 2-1 against CJ until Mike Brown’s adjustments on offense kicked in, which would’ve never happened under Thibs.
People underrate the hell out of the Hawks, they’re a great team and the best defensive team in the east.
The Knicks are better- mainly because the Towns/Brunson lineups are better than last season. https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/figuring-out-new-yorks-playoff-rotations
Perhaps the bench lineups have improved the endurance of these units but it also looks like Brown has unlocked a level in Towns defensively that Thibs couldn’t do.
Yooo - where can we get that hat, Walt? If only Modell’s were still a thing.
Can’t go to Mo’s no mo :(
I gotta go to Mos, but they wont let me
I miss Modells and Sports Authority
“Developing” is incorrect here. These are all professionals. What he did was stop playing them in the playoffs, as if starters have max stamina at all times.
thibs would hardly play the bench in the regular season tho
there was almost zero difference between how he coached in the regular season and the playoffs. that was a big issue.
Thibs thought he could toggle stamina on and off 😆
Walt Frazier has some amazing chops ( teeth) for his age. Expensive.
We have seen it in these playoffs. The bench has been a huge part of this Knicks run. Each round someone off the bench has had big plays even in limited time. Shamet, McBride, Alvarado, Clarkson, Robinson.
Thibs loved his starters and 2 to 3 off the bench who played for minimal minutes to give the starters a brief rest.
facts. thibs philosophy was to get your best players on the court as much as possible. it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when he did play the deep bench, they weren’t ready so he minimized their opportunities, and they weren’t ready because he minimized their minutes. brown was willing to lose games in the regular season that thibs wouldn’t have lost.
Turning to Alvarado, benching Shamet and Mikal in the fourth, playing Huk and Sochan when put frontcourt is in trouble… his lineup improvisation has been exceptional. To be fair to Thibs, he deserves a ton of credit for empowering Brunson, Hart and Mitch and putting them in positions to thrive.
Are all the people who were crying about Thibs being fired ready to apologize?
I love Thibs but no chance in hell that the Knicks would be in their current position with his philosophy.
They would still have made the finals for sure. They are way more skilled than the rest of the east at this point.
Conversely, give him credit where it’s due. The stamina the guys have when he was there when he was making them play 45 minutes against the Kings on a random Tuesday night in November is paying off now, Wemby can’t keep up that same energy.
I think the way the ball is moving and how KAT is being used has had a bigger impact than the bench. That’s what got them the win streak
yes, but it’s not necessarily about the bench players. we shouldn’t be comparing a tired brunson to a fresher deuce. it’s comparing a tired brunson to a fresher brunson.
Man alive I just love Clyde.
All these years and he just tells it exactly like it is. Pure honesty and integrity. Incredible basketball knowledge and the most proficient and omniscient vocabulary in the business - but he holds back for no one.
Rooting for the spurs but Walt is such a class act legend and so damn likeable. Would be happy for him and breen who’ve had to call some truly awful basketball the past 30 years
Tbf to Thibs, our bench this year is more talented than it was last year. What Clyde said is still true though because Shamet’s improvement this season over last is directly because of Mike Brown.
Thibs cycle is good for your team if u pull out early
I’ve never seen a more complicated pattern on a suit
This is just a typical Clyde suit
He has great style! Not enough people with a lot of color in their wardrobe these days.
Honestly, knicks still win with thibs.
the knicks aren’t making it past the hawks with thibs lmao
Great points other than Robinson, he’s actually playing less under brown. I think like most I was skeptical of the hire, but Brown has been amazing.
y’know i feel like Thibs has largely skated on the “ruined Derrick Rose’s career cuz he had him on the court late in an already-won game” thing, like people almost jokingly reference the insane minutes he put on guys. with a different coach Rose is probably only now wrapping up a HOF career, inside he’s just another tantalizing “What If?”
Man we need to bring this home for Clyde. Nobody deserves to see it more.
100000% correct
I can’t believe Thibs didn’t play his bench players consistenting of Cam Payne, Pj Tucker, Jericho Sims & Delon Wright more minutes.
Look what Obi Toppin became to the Pacers. You have to develop people
Thibs literally still had Shamet, and barely played him. And Delon Wright was a huge part of us winning games against the Pacers. Thats mike brown’s strength. He’s finding minutes for Sochan and Hukporti in the finals, and Thibs couldn’t find a way to incorporate Landry Shamet consistently.
Yea, cause Thibs obviously would’ve played Alvarado big minutes in the 4th…
Alvarado is literally the type of player he would want to play 48 minutes lol
No he wouldn’t have. Thibs barely played Deuce and Brunson toether. Thibs doesn’t believe in small ball
??? Deuce and Brunson played around 600 minutes together last reg season and just under 700 this season. Not an insane difference thats like a few games lol
come on man. you should know that thibs would never play brunson and jose together. too much of a “defensive liability”, even though jose is a plus defender for his size.
We forgetting Shamet, who saw zero minutes until the Pacers took a giant dump on us?
They also have a former 6th Man of the Year in Clark.
Very fair and correct
We all love Thibs, there’s no hard feeling. I viewed this as your favorite middle school or high school teacher. Instrumental, great in their own right, but not the same person who teaches you advanced courses in college, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Thibs actually used his bench in 2021 and at times other years so it’s odd that he just started feeding into his own criticisms and rep more and more. It’s like he was out to prove people wrong his last year
Yup it def was clear, and with how talent parity is with starting 5s your bench is where the difference is.
I haven’t heard Clyde be the brutal upfront since Bargnani inexplicably shot that 3 vs Milwaukee yrs ago
100% correct and I remember a lot of people thought they should hire Michael Malone to replace Thibs. Michael Malone is just Thibs with a better haircut.
It’s not just the bench. It’s about maximizing the team. He’s getting the best out of OG, towns, Bridges (to a lesser extent). Very reminiscent of the difference between Mark Jackson and Steve Kerr. Alot of similarities.
I wanna see some Mike Brown apologies in here. I want receipts!!
The only bench guy Thibs really played regularly was McBride.
mcbride and grimes both got forced into the rotation because of covid. if he wasn’t forced to play the young guys, who knows if/when they would have gotten a chance?
Don’t need a bench when your starters play 48 minutes a game
Frazier*
Tigers don’t change their stripes. And so is Thibs.
Respectfully,
Bulls fan.
hmmmm, but i remember the thibs bulls being famous for its bench mob
Stephen A is a misogynistic, MAGAt simp, no thanks.
when the Knicks starters could finally start getting some rest time cuz thibs left it must’ve felt like Rock Lee taking off his weights in Naruto
Hes right people look at thibs with very rose tinted glasses. our bench is gonna be even deeper next year when diawara and kolkek devlops even more
Thibs has always been like that. He trust his starters and just doesn’t care about the bench.
Yes, Mike Brown just please don’t bring out Jeremy Sochan and put him at center. Almost cost us game 4. give all the center minutes to Ariel Hukporti if Mitch and KAT are in foul trouble
It was more than just that with Thibs. The lack of bench usage/overplaying his starters was just one part of it. His offensive and even defensive scheming were prehistoric, he was very delayed to adjustments (resulting in rigid rotations), and he never really used his assistant coaches in any sort of significant ways like Brown has. There’s a reason Thibs has no coaching tree, whereas Brown does. I will always be grateful for what Thibs did to help rebuild the culture here with Leon, but he’s a coach in which the game has passed him by and if he were to get another chance elsewhere, it’d need to be a team with a broken culture and young talent in need of development.
We took so much unnecessary shit from people outside of New York for that firing and one of the great pleasures of this run has been seeing all those guys have to eat their words. Thibs was a great coach but we would not be here without brown
Through this whole playoff run, the Knicks have gotten valuable minutes from guys like Mitch, Shamet, and Alvarado. They’ve also gotten solid spurts from Deuce and JC, and heck, even a few very limited minutes from Huk.
Love Thibs, but Mike’s confidence and willingness to actually use the bench has been really HUGE for this team’s run.
It’ll cost Nick Nurse his job too, eventually
Hopefully…
Thibs was a great floor raiser for the Knicks, Brown let it go to the next level.
He is the reason we dont have mvp drose anymore fuck thibs
Idiots on this sub and Twitter were laughing at the Knicks for “firing the coach that took them to the ECF”. I love Thibs for taking us out of the trenches but we got that far in spite of him.
Brown’s rotations were the biggest knock I heard against him coming into this job as well. All the fans of his past teams said we’d hate him “randomly” subbing guys in and out.
Even if he isn’t interested in developing his bench it’s still wild he can’t comprehend the benefits of resting his starters.
I’m going to sound fucking crazy when I say this, but I remember thinking Thibs wasn’t the guy during the Miami series when he constantly blitzed an injured Jimmy Butler and the Knicks lost in six. I’m obviously glad in hindsight they didn’t get rid of him at that point because they didn’t yet have the credibility, culture, or roster to go land a big time head coach and have it work out this well.
Knicks bench sucks though.
In fairness to Thibs, he never had a bench this deep. But even if he did, he wouldn’t utilize it. I love Thibs for building the foundation of this team, but Mike Brown has put on a coaching masterclass and deserves his flowers.
This is correct. Let’s not forget Thibs had a team of KAT, Jimmy, Wiggins, Teague, and Crawford off the bench in Minnesota and didn’t even win a round. He is a much overrated coach.