[Thinking Basketball] How the Knicks did the Impossible
Wemby got hunted an insane amount. He looked exhausted. An underappreciated part of many all time greats is their stamina. Lebron playing all 48 almost every game in the 2018 playoffs. Jokic in the double OT vs the blazers etc.
Yep. Brian Windhorst talked about this a lot after the game, Wemby was so tired. Windy questioned why Wemby played so many minutes when they had such a big lead and could have rested him off/on. Add everything and this has not been a good series for Mitch Johnson.
Mitch has been atrocious. The disparity between his coaching and Mike Brown’s has been so large that I think that the Spurs would have legit swept if the coaches were swapped.
It’s interesting how much the Knicks have dedicated in this series to tiring Wemby out between the switches, the physicality, the strategy late in the third and early fourth if he was going for a lob of just push him, all to gas him out and allow a hunt
Let’s be real, most of these guys are still on that Thibs cardio stamina levels. With actual rotations from Mike Brown, means that they can keep going and keep their pressure for longer and especially on the guys that need they need to pressure and wear down
Let’s be real–cardio stamina doesn’t last very long once you stop. What’s actually happening is that they continue to work out, and that it’s more difficult to run around a lot when you’re 7 fucking 6 feet tall (and having to push against stronger dudes down low)
Is it interesting? If the refs are going to let you hack and hold the team’s best player you’re obviously going to do it as much as possible lol.
I feel like the people rooting for the spurs and Wemby would have been rooting for Goliath and pissed that David was able to use a sling.
I don’t see any Philistines currently committing genocide so maybe David was the bad guy all along!
What a horrible analogy lol
I’m just about fairness, I was rooting for the Knicks at the start of the series but then I switched to wanting the Wemby to overcome all of this despite getting hosed.
He also played 44 minutes in a game that was a blow out 3⁄4 of the game. Mitch Johnson not sitting wemby for longer stretches when they had a huge lead is basketball terrorism. He probably thought game would be over quick and he could rest wemby rest of the 4th quarter.
Gambling on the Knicks throwing in the towel like OKC did in a blow out non elimination game was a grave error. I can only remember a few times all season that Mike Brown pulled starters early.
They probably would have rested him most of the 4th of the Knicks had scored a normal 25-30 points in the 3rd rather than 14
They went for the haymaker in the third and didn’t land it.
Maybe you get him some rest in the first half, but do they go into halftime up 27 in that case?
Hindsight is always 20-20 but I don’t blame Mitch for not expecting the literal greatest comeback in NBA history to happen.
The hindsight coaching is painful. We are at a point where this very difficult decision of when to sit your star player is “basketball terrorism” if you end up on the wrong side of it.
If I remember correctly, he rested 3 minutes the first half and about a minute in the 2nd half towards the end of the third before he was immediately subbed back in before the end of the third. I mean wemby trained with the monks and all but playing almost the entire 2nd half minus about less than a minute of rest is unprecedented for him. He was gassed the entire 4th quarter. You can’t expect him to perform his best with how hard he plays and how hard he is played when the tank is empty.
I’m sure it’s a really hard decision for the coach when to sit him knowing the spurs lose every minute he sits but it’s his job to look for small minutes on which he can rest wemby. It’s unacceptable to just play the guy basically the entire 2nd half when you’re up by more than 20 specially knowing that his stamina is not the best in the world. This is not thibs we’re talking about. Good thing moving forward is if they manage to extend the series, there’ll be more rest in between games. So that may help him.
Id take up 15-20 with some rest over up 29 and gassed.
Yep, I’d have done the last 4 mins of the 2nd quarter with Kornet. They were still shooting lights out from 3.
He panic subbed when Kat got back into the game.
Wemby is an elite rim protector but has some Goebert tendencies if you can get him out on the perimeter. He’s still really good from there, but I’d rather challenge him from out there and Knicks have a few guys who can do it.
Gobert is a much better perimeter defender than Wemby because he is a much smarter one. People cling to him getting cooked by luka that one time but in large samples he is 1of1 for being that good at that big on the perimeter. I remember he had a crazy block on KD this year where he like blocked the jumper from the side.
He absolutely is not, wtf are people talking about lmao
Led League this year in giving up the fewest points per posession in isolation plays, regardless of position. Gobert absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders regardless of position in the NBA. He looks weird doing it, which is why people who watch him play don’t realize it for the most part, but the numbers show how effective he actually is.
Not saying he’s not good, he’s just not Wemby. “Much better” at that is a crazy thing to say.
Hunted how exactly? He isn’t the primary defender on any of these plays except for the three that Brunson hit over him. The Knicks were trying to get him out of the way, succeeded some but it wasn’t like they were dicing up the Spurs consistently by putting him in actions.
I feel like pulling Wemby up on ball screens did more to tire him out on the offensive end.
Bro is committed to being wrong
gotta respect the hustle
The video says the Knicks had a 180 Offensive Rating in the second half when they got Wemby into action.
Edit: and they did it 19 times so this wasn’t a small sample.
Lmao. 19 is a small sample, and just because they had those results didn’t mean that Wemby was hunted or bad on defense.
This analysis is horrible lol
I mean take it up with Thinking Basketball then. Ben Taylor is partnered with the NBA to break down game footage, and is highly regarded in the space.
The data will tell you that in the second half of the game, hunting Brunson hurt the Spurs, and hunting Wemby opened up the rim and swing passes for the Knicks.
Ben Taylor is the man, I didn’t watch the whole 16 min video but I’m pretty sure he isn’t saying or implying that Wemby was bad on defense and was being “hunted” because he was so ineffective.
The analysis in the thread is what I’m pushing back on. People are saying he’s bad or not effective at defending pick and rolls and defending on the perimeter, which is dumb.
this really highlights the importance of brunson. og won the game and played huge down the stretch, but he got most of those looks because of brunson and his weight on offense. it doesn’t happen without JB.
Bigger impact this series with an eye test than the stat watchers will be able to see
That and the Becky Hammon goalpost movers
Got casuals box scoring telling me Brunson getting bailed out like they don’t understand basketball is way more nuanced than just staring at advanced stats.
something something drunk lamppost
His ability to throw an elbow into Harper’s gut while not being called for an offensive foul is definitely impactful.
A key tactical question before this season was: “how is New York going to keep Wemby out of the paint defensively?”.
In the first two games it was mostly by KAT being a stretch five. Since then, Spurs have gone to pre-switching and other moves to keep Wemby low. The key thing I’m noticing in this video is the different ways we continue to force Wemby out despite their instance on him staying low.
Zach Lowe also brought up that they identified that Victor isn’t really guarding one person most the time but guarding the baseline area so they will start with hart in the corner and then he will swap spots with shamet or OG on the wing and then clear out that side of the court. they run a PnR action with Brunson and attack Victor forcing him to help/rotate and kick the ball to the corner.
The spurs countered this by actually having Victor guard hart outright and so the Knicks have been dragging Victor into the pick and role action with double screens so that he can’t just sag off and leave hart open since there’s more than one screen occurring. He has to come up and help.
Mike brown has been coaching his ass off and Knicks seem go always know exactly what actions are needed to attacked Victor and force him to always be in the action and out of the paint
There’s always an element to this with Wemby, but in that last game the Knicks won because they went bonkers on their jumpshots in the last 9 mins. They weren’t shredding the Spurs either, plenty were tough, contested shots. That’s one of the main stories of the series, great shot making despite good defense by the spurs.
Yup. I still think spurs or wemby weren’t bad on defense. It’s just the knicks elite contested shot making on almost all 4 games that’s winning them games. That and spurs not doing the same on the other end besides a few ones.
You are 100% right.
It’s so annoying how any stat regardless of the context is treated as all reality.
Knicks hit tough shots over Wemby and have a high offensive rating? It’s because Wemby is a trash defender.
I mean you guys did the same thing for most of the past 2 games.
Your shooting wasn’t sustainable either and in game 3 that Castle bail out 3 was probably the craziest make of the whole series
It’s a make or miss league, but reducing everything to shotmaking is lazy. Knicks have a clear idea of finding ways to move Wemby out of the paint and that’s what I’m highlighting. No matter what, you need to make shots
I get that but there are people talking about how Wemby is so much worse on the perimeter than Gobert.
Before the 2nd half of game 4 the Knicks had an o-rating of like 78 when they brought Wemby into the action.
It’s become this thing where whatever was the last thing that happened is the only truth. I swear if /r/nba had been around in 2010 after game 3 of the finals there would be tons of people trying to say that “Ray Allen is a fraud shooter. 0/10 in 2 of the first 3 finals games.”
Idk about anyone else but I was surprised to see Wemby out of the paints guarding Brunson on that last possession. I guess you’d want the DPOY on him but it pulled him the paints, if he’s in the paint does that OG put back happen?
No but the quick deep 3 from Brunson also wouldn’t have happened - if Fox still came to double he likely would have passed to OG who had a wide open 3 or lane to get a good shot off
“The Finger Tip Game” is also what Hart and Brunson play when they think no one’s watching
Ben Taylor always does an incredible job breaking down the tactical sides of these playoff games
Alvarado made some really fucking good plays in the 2nd half props to him bro
Jalen Brunson on Wemby possessions in the second half had a 180 offensive rating lol what in the fuck
“Overrated shot chucker” vs the unanimous DPOY
The attention to detail here is elite. Great content.
This is a great video. Watching it live I didn’t notice how much they were actively hunting Wemby. It just seemed to sorta happen randomly a couple times to my fan eyes. But it makes a lot of sense. Wemby is a god like help defender, so make him play on ball against the quickest guy on the team—and bonus tire him out for offense.
The balls on Brunson as the smallest guy to hunt the tallest dude on the court on every possession. Insane adjustment.
David v Goliath
To be fair, he would have to engage with him regardless and this helps to allow the Knicks to dictate where it happens. It reminds me of that Warriors-Lakers series where the Warriors tried to get AD into the main action to draw him away from protecting the rim.
They didn’t know it was impossible due to their inexperience, duh
Uncanny Thumbnail lmao
It’s like they crossed Brunson with handsome squidward
Those Spurs possessions he highlighted in the 2nd half… oof. Without context you’d think they’re up 25-30 in a game in October, not the god damn NBA Finals
Those ai pictures in the thumbnail look horrible lmfao that doesn’t even look like Jalen Brunson
when we gonna start calling Mitch Johnson Baby Thibs? He only played 3 dudes off the bench G4
Who did you think he should have played?
I feel like they are overtaxing Wemby on defense. Just look at all the pointing and shit he does to get the team to switch and rotate so he can guard space around the paint
When I watch the game live, I also think that Wemby tries too hard to block. I’m not sure how to explain it well, but sometimes he could just wait for a rebound. This would leave his opponents with average shots, instead of closing every time and trying to get the block.
Knicks fans deserve a medal just for sticking with this team!
Might wanna peep what this guy says about Wemby’s defense overall before you start saying Wemby’s overrated on defense, or what he says about him as an all around player if you think he’s out of the BITW discussion.
Let’s not glorify the truth. The Knicks didn’t really do much except keeping their foot on the gas and playing pretty normal basketball.
It was all the Spurs handing them the W on a silver platter with a historical choke job.
Imagine if they called the foul on Fox’s “blocked” layup. The comeback that never should’ve been. OG touched 0% ball on that block lmao.
hey spurs. pj washington is available if ya want him