[Highlight] Orioles’ Jackson Holliday was ruled out of the basepath here as he grounds out for the 2nd out of the 9th inning
Baseball Gods rage baiting Orioles fans in a way only the Baseball Gods can
He also did tag him. But at the same time, it’s clear the manager was trying to be ejected there, idk why the ump didn’t pull the trigger lol
“If I have to be here, so do you” lol
Orioles couldn’t even get the ‘eject me’ call right today.
I love how Varland literally tagged him and because of that I’m convinced that this call was solely to ragebait the O’s and can’t be convinced otherwise lol
Oh. So that’s how you attempt a tag
yeah the people saying “Ernie was out!! look what he did!!” without bothering to watch Gunnar “try to tag him” was so funny
How was that not a tag attempt? Gunnar reached his arm out for the tag and then pulled back because he didn’t want to go on a goose chase for a runner he rightfully assumed would be out. If he had pursued Clement further, it would’ve hurt his chances of making the play at first.
Still have to try to tag him. Just cause it’s inconvenient doesn’t mean you’re absolved of the responsibility of actually trying to tag the runner.
That is a tag attempt though. He stuck his arm out, Clement proceeded to run even further from the base, and he pulled back assuming that Clement had given himself up.
Not a legitimate attempt. Insincere attempt. Insinuating it was anything other than that is also insincere. We’re all watching the same thing.
Where in the rule book is a legitimate attempt defined? This site only says the fielder has to make a motion in the direction of the runner, which Henderson did
https://baseballrulesacademy.com/the-baseline-rule-understanding-runner-restrictions-and-umpire-judgments-in-baseball/
Fucking thank you
This is a better breakdown. https://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rules-base-running/basepath-running-lane
Clement already established long before the (lazy) tag attempt was made that he was wide of Henderson. He was already wide to avoid the throw. You can basically do whatever you want to avoid the fielder if they’re not actively attempting to tag you.
He still ran more than 3 feet laterally during/after the tag attempt though
if this were true then yes absolutely he’d be out. i’m waiting for the jomboy breakdown and i hope he tries to measure this
I don’t think so. I think if his starting position when Gunnar tried to tag him was closer, it’s a legitimate gripe. But because Clement was already so far away, Gunnar would’ve had to take a few steps to his left to be in Clement’s established baseline.
This is the key element. Where is the established baseline when there’s a tag attempt? I just don’t really see it as being out of the baseline because Clement was already so far to Henderson’s left.
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/s/399RyE2RG7
Exactly as I’ve described.
lol nothing abt performative or legit tags in rule book
https://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rules-base-running/basepath-running-lane
thanks ive read that.
eta: id love for what u linked to help me understand the meaning of performative attempt or legitimate attempt
I think you’re just seeing bad angles. Like he barely moves his arm and he’s like 10 feet from him. Calling that reaching your arm out is absolutely exaggerating. And I agree at the making the play at first harder, but that’s the point. Making a double play by tagging the guy for the first out is always a really low odds play, just skipping the tag part is obviously going to make it easier.
He ran at him with the ball to tag him. How does running at the runner not count as an attempt to tag?
Because running at someone doesn’t matter if you don’t actually try to touch them
A lazy swipe oh you are too far I’m going to continue to first and hope I get the call isn’t trying to make a tag
yes. just as the rule book says.
You really don’t see a difference between this and the “attempt” on Clement? Gunnar just flicked his wrist in his general direction as if he’s Nestor Cortes up there trying to trick the batter.
I’m curious. Is there something saying how much of an attempt the defender has to make to deem it “attempting a tag” because Gunnar did have the ball in his glove and reached towards the runner?
Varland was chasing holliday like a homing missile, Gunnar was flicking his wrist in the general direction of Clement.
I’m going to say if you stick your arm out to tag a guy and he runs out of his way to react to it, then yes, it was a tag attempt.
Agreed it was more of a tag than Gunnar attempted, but calling Holliday out of the path here is just insane. He tagged him so the point is moot, but the fact they called out of base path was just insane to me
Great, there are different levels of attempts. But they are both attempts.
You check swing at a ball, and I swing as hard as I can. Both are strikes, even though I tried harder.
That’s a pretty terrible example you picked to make your case when checked swings literally have a judgement based threshold to determine if it’s a strike or not lol
Why’d you pick a check swing when that is infamously one of the things most left to pure judgement
“flicking his wrist in the general direction of Clement.”
So that’s just a natural motion that surely had nothing to do with trying to tag the runner?
Tbh watching it live it looked like he gave up on the tag and just decided to get the out at first.
He gave up on the tag because the runner was jumping 5 feet outside the base path to avoid him
So he never even tried to tag?! Well that settles things nicely, doesn’t it!
Jesus christ, did you watch the clip? It’s like extremely obvious that he was reaching to tag him, then realized he didn’t have a chance because the runner was going 5 feet outside the basepath to avoid him, so then he gave up on the tag. How can you not see that?
I can not see that because that did not happen, lmao.
Gunnar very clearly moved his glove towards clement and doesn’t have 5 foot long arms so pulled it back and threw to first, don’t know what the umps expect him to do there
The thing is, Clement being out of the baseline prior to the tag was totally legal. It would have been an out if Clement veered a further three feet away at the point Henderson’s tag attempt was made
Actually try to make a tag probably…
Think theres always gonna be subjectivity in that, same with checked swing calls. Moving the glove slightly vs. full on reaching I guess with that one, tough call on you guys but its at the ump’s discretion I suppose.
But with check swings we actually know when it’s a ball or strike by the wrists/bat. From Gunnar’s pov I feel like he was just trying to make the double play. Gave an “attempt” and then make a throw
We actually don’t. There’s no true guidelines with a checked swing. It’s all subjective. People use the wrists/bats as a guideline, but it’s not the rule book definition.
Silly wabbit, you have to actually tag the runner for it to be deemed an attempt
That is considered a tag attempt
Orioles fans: These plays are the same.
They should consider becoming umpires.
Also, it’s 1st base, there is a clear running path the runner is permitted to be in. So if they step out when the tag attempt is made, there’s no guesswork. Feet outside, out of line, zero nuance required.
the runner’s lane only matters for throws to first, so there’s still some nuance. The thing the box helps with is it marks 3 feet
For fans and umps they need all the help they can get lol
i mean just about any time you have to judge a distance, its nice to have an actual physical thing to measure with lol
Waiting for the day all tag plays require on-field trigonometry to confirm.
yes, we should run way out of the baseline to try to tag someone and completely give up on the out at first.
The entire situation is different and you know it.
Now *that’s* a fucking tag attempt.
Full on dive for the play.
Not only an actual tag attempt, but he actually tagged him as well.
It’s called an actual literal tag pal.
Yeah because he was only worried about that one runner. Gunnar was going for a double play and didn’t have time to chase down the runner who was literally running away from the baseball. This is bullshit and you know it
The Orioles are not entitled to a double play there. Given Clement was already out of reach before Henderson even made his “attempt”, he was already in a position where he had to choose which runner to put out. He chose the runner at first.
You do know that double plays are earned and the team is not entitled to it right?
If he only has time to either tag the runner or throw to a base than you ain’t getting both outs now will you……
The situation is entirely different and you know it.
Yeah it was different. The difference being that Varland made a tag attempt and your 2nd baseman did not.
That’s not what situation means.
He actually tagged him lol
Bias asides, managers arguing so they can get thrown out is always silly.
Come on, man, you don’t buy into the notion of trying to fire the boys up when you have *check notes* one out left?
Honestly, it’s the perfect time to get ejected. There’s little to no downside and Albernaz can make it abundantly clear how badly he thinks his team got fucked. Maybe he buys a judgment call for tomorrow, but even if he doesn’t, it’s not like the team suffers by playing one out without him.
Bro WTF is that flair lol
I really like being second place in the east
Umps rage baiting him by not tossing him too lol Just chefs kiss moment
man wants to break out the beer a batter early.
I’m sure there will be a very reasonable reaction to this
Very clearly a tag attempt haha. I’m not upset about this call.
O‘s broadcasters are, though. Despite there being no connection or similarities between the calls whatsoever.
Oh yeah he’s salty for sure
Bit too salty for an early June game between two sub-500 teams, if you ask me.
lol Philly fan complaining about saltiness I’ve heard WIP can’t fool me
Lmao you really made a list for a rage bait comment
“Made a List“
Damn, if you think that’s effort…yeah, fits your lazy, self-hating troll life. Bye bye.
Sometimes your food just needs a lil seasoning.. normally I’d agree with you with these two teams below .500 but like every team besides 3-4 teams in AL are below .500
I 100% agree, but Jesus we have the most annoying fan bases in our fucking division. I think the Blue Jays are right up there with the Red Sox and maybe the Yankees (I might be hyperbolic there) as the most annoying fucking fan bases. At least ones that I give a shit about anyway (in my obviously biased opinion) love Canada though beautiful country
What do you consider a reasonable reaction to this? I’m genuinely curious. Does this kind of thing makes you fall in love with the game?
Fill me in? This doesn’t even make sense as to why this is disputed
He was tagged anyways. And in this case, Varland did try to tag him.
Waiting for someone to be like “he tagged him but he didn’t try to so it doesn’t count” one of these days lol
“I’m just going to run with my arms out and if you get tagged it’s your fault!”
That’s what a tag attempt actually looks like.
Also…was tagged out. Details.
He was also literally tagged! Lots going on!
about as clear-cut and obvious “out of the baseline” as it gets. was also tagged. what’s the controversy, am i missing something?
Orioles are confused on a previous play clement side stepped and made it to second cause the baseman threw to first an never attempted a tag leading to a 5 run inning for us
“side stepped” is certainly one way of putting it
It was the gentlemanly thing for clement to do
lol at least admit that the umps fucked up. Gunnar clearly attempted a tag and the umps just ignored it. Hopefully Nic Lentz gets fired suspended and put in jail when it inevitably comes out that he bet on the Jays today.
Got greedy assumed you could get a DP ignored the runner only got one out blew a 4 run lead lost the game lost the series lost your damm mind
no the Umps gifted you the game at least be honest man. I guess good job on capitalizing on the ump job of the year but you had no business winning that game.
Nah Gunnar definitely got greedy there thinking he could just milk a call by gesturing a tag then throwing to first
This sub is suddenly full of “well ackshually the rules are” today, lol.
What Clement did is so obviously not intended to be allowed by the rules. If the runner is ten feet away you obviously can’t make a tag. If the runner then decides to run into the outfield what are you supposed to do, chase after him?
Exactly these Jays fans are being crazy. Even Clement in his interview seemed confused at how the umps didn’t call it and Schneider just basically said yeah we caught a break.
Yup. Based on this interpretation of the rule - that a tag attempt is only made when you can actually tag the fielder - then theoretically a runner could be running in circles in the outfield if he wants to, as long as he’s too far away from the fielder for them to actually try to tag him, because his basepath hasn’t been established yet.
These comments are so entertaining hahaha
he tagged him
So another good call.
Literally didnt matter if he was out of the path or not there. Louis tagged him.
here for the drama
That was 100% a tag.
It was a clear tag attempt, and he got tagged out by Varland
That’s how you attempt a tag O’s fans.
It was also his only play, there was no chance for any other out. The first instance was a double play opportunity so chasing the runner into right field to “properly” attempt a tag couldve screwed the Os out of a double play, right? Genuine question, not trying to be a dick.
The issue is that gunner didn’t make a genuine effort to put on a tag. Me moved his glove a little where there was no chance for contact and threw to first without actually making an effort to put a tack on clement. The baseline rule stipulates that a tag attempt has to be made, because the baseline is established by the runner at the initiation of the attempt. Without a tag attempt, there is no baseline rule to apply.
Right that makes sense, but what constitutes a genuine effort to make a tag? Is it just up to the umps discretion? That seems…problematic.
It is umps discretion yes. And can be problematic in this case, however, I think it’s the right call. Gunner did not make an actual effort to put a tag on. He flicked his wrist in the general direction of the runner without actually trying to make contact. That is not an attempt imo
It is umps discretion yes. And can be problematic in this case, however, I think it’s the right call.
I mean that’s exactly the problem here. It’s ump discretion on how to interpret “tag attempt”. If the baserunner is 20 feet away from the fielder when the ball is fielded, he can just run into the outfield if he wants. The fielder can either attempt to run him down or get the sure out at second. Seems like a really easy way to break up this kind of double play and that seems like the exact kind of behavior this rule is attempting to prohibit.
If the ump decided “The tag attempt was made when the fielder made a move towards the baserunner” then that’s also the “correct” call because that’s his interpretation of “tag attempt”. So MLB needs to update the rulebook and decide exactly when a tag attempt begins.
It’s umps discretion for far too many things in baseball though in this case, I think it has to be. Regardless, there should really be more solid rules to guide these decisions.
So, the rule is more complex than that. I am fine with the play in the post being called an out. The rules (5.09-b-1) read:
(b) Retiring a Runner A runner is out when:
(b) Retiring a Runner
A runner is out when:
>(1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;
I get we are arguing over the second half of the sentence, but the first half seems relevant too. Gunner has the ball, anyone with a room temp IQ knows he is going to tag and throw, is that the start of the tag attempt? I do not know because a tag attempt is not defined anywhere in the rules.
The way I see it, from watching the play, gunner did not make a real attempt to put on a tag. By the time the runner is actually close enough to make a play on, he is already transferring to throw to first. He flicked his wrist towards the runner in a space where there was no chance for contact to be made. To me, that is not a genuine tag attempt.
I think the issue here is the lack of definition on a tag attempt. At what* point is one attempting to tag someone. Do you have to be close enough to reasonably touch someone? Do you have to be moving to them with the ball in glove? I do not know. This post’s play has a clear tag attempt. The play earlier in the game comes down to whether or not a tag attempt is made when someone is in arms reach or if you can leave the line you are on to prevent someone from getting within arms reach and bypassing the tag attempt.
Ok lets just move on from this game
What happened to “anything to help these losers out”?
Not a great comment on my part. Was very heated in the moment
I mean yeah the real score was 4-2 O’s but good job I guess capitalizing on the ump job of the year
“ump job of the year” lol… no one cares enough about the Orioles for that to ever be the case.
doesn’t change the fact that it is the most egregious clearly wrong call of the year so far and would be incredibly difficult to top.
its not in the slightest, but do rage on.
I haven’t seen any worse calls maybe other then Gunnar still being called out against the Red Sox even after review.
Thats some good hyperbole
Lmfao youre really mad if youre just making up something that didnt happen
LOL you are really delusional just ignoring a clear fuck up by the umps.
Didn’t ignore shit, you’re the delusional one thinking the “real” score was 4-2. Thats peak loser behaviour but whatever helps you sleep at night
I mean with legitimate umps it would have been 4-2 but sure just ignore the absolute clown show that gifted you the game and series if it helps you sleep at night.
Again, im not the one that believes in some fairytale score that actually doesn’t exist.
Great tag louis!
Why didn’t Varland bluetooth tag him?
Varland always calls collect
Lmao
He was ALSO tagged. So whatever the Orioles want to do to cry, he’s still very very out.
Yeah. That upset was stupid. I’m definitely on the side of the 6th was fucked by the umps and he was out of the base path but getting upset over the Holiday play was dumb. He was tagged, wack ass attempt to draw attention to the bad call in the 6th and get thrown out cause you pussied out and didn’t get throw out in the 6th when you should have.
I emotionally agree with you as an O’s fan. The problem here is that a tag attempt is not a defined action. While you and I see Gunner having the ball and attempting to move to get the player out as a tag attempt, Jays fans are defining more literally as the physical motion and getting within a certain distance with the ball. I get why both sides are heated, I just think this is a shitty rule that should be more properly defined.
yeah but to call Holliday out of the baseline there after the Clement play was an absolute joke didn’t affect the outcome of that specific play but still absolute bullshit and a disgrace to the game.
You do not understand the Clement play. He was already avoiding to his right before the fielder has the ball, as he’s both allowed AND supposed to. There are multiple replays of this making it explicitly clear. Go cry more.
Yes I do shut the fuck up telling me what I do and don’t understand. There are multiple replays showing that he doesn’t change his path until Gunnar has the ball going towards him. can’t wait until we fuck you bitches up later in the year.
That’s how that’s supposed to go.
He was also tagged
He tagged him anyways.. lol
Varland actually touched him at least
Because he was avoiding a tag
Umps got both calls right.
Why is a LHH ever running in fair territory?
Yeah he actually attempted to tag him. Amazing stuff I know.
Good call. The basepath does exist!
He also physically tags him
Argue as much as you’d like about the Clement one, but this is textbook running out of the basepaths.
We have all experienced the weirdness of baseball rules. No team is an exception, lol
Eh, unfair comparison. There’s no real leeway when it comes to running to first. Any other bases would’ve been a better comparison.
You’re not gonna run 15 foot to the right like Clements did when you’re trying to beat out a throw running to first.
Go birds
as someone who mainly watches hoops, even I can see that’s a tough call. give the runner a lane man. baseball umps gonna ump 🤷♂️
That’s what a tag attempt looks like
O’s fans, media and team in shambles this afternoon 🤣
That’s what an attempt to tag looks like btw. Also he was tagged….
This one still doesn’t really compare to the previous play. Running to first the batter usually has to stay in the running lane. He ran out of the lane so was called out.
This is literally the only part of the field that’s designated as a running lane
Because this was a legit tag attempt. Unlike what happened to Clement. Not sure how difficult this is for so many to understand.
I love how everyone looks surprised, as if they’ve never seen a rulebook before let alone opened one. That’s my favourite part of baseball; it’s about the only sport where moderately attentive fans actually DO know more about it than most of the people on the field.
Broke: lolmets
Woke: lmaO’s
Ernie should’ve been out. Holliday was definitely out.
shrug.
Is this the same game as Ernie clement not being called out of the base path? Because if so the umps are truly fucking with the O’s
It is.
lol I’m just glad the umps had to make this call after the first fuck up
It’s like poetry, it rhymes
The baseball gods were doubling down
I mean, he’s out. But this is funny thanks to the CLEARLY outside baserunning from Clement in the sixth, which just felt like an egregious call to miss from the umps.
This sport is so fucking stupid sometimes. It makes the NFL officiating look good.
Honestly crazy how fast this sub turned on the os and are acting as if the original play is a normal basepath. Watch this and tell me how this is a normal path? You also clearly see gunnar reach, see him go way out and just throw to first for the assumed dp https://imgur.com/a/Ndt1HcG
People using this correct call to try to justify the ump’s fuckup is wild.
There was no fuck up like there was no tag attempt
Yes there absolutely was.
Does gunnar have tiny arms?
Now that’s a bad call, the one on Clement was correct tho
Bad call? Aside from actually being tagged, his left foot is basically on the base line when the tag attempt begins and then he ends up halfway to the 1st base coach’s box. He definitely deviated >3 feet from the basepath established by the tag attempt.
Guys come on, a runner is allowed to create his own basepath at the time of the tag attempt, I’d argue here the tag attempt isn’t until Louis gets fully extended (and actually tags him), Holiday then establishes his base path outside of the baseline and is allowed 3 feet from there. I’m a Blue Jays fan saying this btw
I’d argue here the tag attempt isn’t until Louis gets fully extended
Like here? Where his left foot is basically on the base line, like I said?
And he ends up here? Halfway to the 1st base coach’s box, like I said?
If the basepath is established at the first picture, it is obvious that he went
3 ft from that base path.