[ESPN] Brewers’ Misiorowski throws 103.7 mph pitch to set starter record
I hope to God that The Miz’ elbow keeps up throughout his career because I think that it would be cool to see what his peak will be healthy.
This is his peak. Pitcher aging curves just go down.
I’m not so sure. Verlander peaked in his late 20s after several years in the league. Same thing with Pedro. Sabathia peaked a little earlier but 4 of his first 5 seasons were 4+ ERA, but he had a 3.74 for his career.
Randy Johnson as well
Chris Sale didn’t win his first CYA until he was 35
Yeah but I believe he means peak in speed. Chris Sale has never been a 100mph fastball kind of guy, even though he has been able to hit those when needed.
Johnson had control issues so bad he wasn’t a major league pitcher until his late 20s. Hes the eexception not the rule
Exactly. Misiorowski’s BB/9 this year would be the lowest in Johnson’s career until the age of 35.
While odds are he won’t age as gracefully because basically no one does, he’s pretty much pitching like peak Randy right now
And was also in a league where people weren’t pitching as fast and were able to take PED’s to recovers (which I’m absolutely not dunking on Randy for).
were able to take PED’s to recovers
I’d wager there are some being taken now too, just not any that are currently easily detectable or yet banned by name.
Didn’t he struggle to put it all together until Nolan Ryan talked/worked with him? I don’t recall the details, just that it was an important moment for his development.
Nolan Ryan’s pitching coach gave him some advice that made his delivery a lot more consistent.
Randy Johnson was the epitome of peaking late. He won four straight Cy Youngs from ages 35-38.
Different era. Verlander sitting 96 in his late 20s was an outlier. Now its league average
League average is 92-95.
Even Kershaw and Lincecum who were undone by injuries/mechanics didn’t peak until 25-26.
deGrom also
Their issue was control, I feel like the Mis already has reasonably good control for the fact he’s throwing harder than those guys.
Isn’t Chapman still throwing 100mph
Chapman is RP, no SP for one, but more than anything else he is the most supernatural baseball player playing today. His body is seemingly indestructible and is very much an exception to like any rule.
His body was literally built for throwing heat. He has some congenital biomechanical optimizations, according to what I’ve seen reported.
Not too often. He’s more in the 96 to 97 range now.
Laughs in Randy Johnson
Miz has been getting better with each start
Had the best cutter he’s ever had and the best changup he’s ever had last night
His slider is a totally new pitch he didn’t have 10 starts ago
His location/control is getting better and better
I’m super curious if anyone has done experiments on the incremental “difficulty” of hitting a 99 MPH vs. a 102 MPH for example.
And similarly the inverse on pitchers’ elbow health. There might be an optimal zone to throw lower MPH than your max but lowers injury risk.
I’d take 3 MPH off the fastball if it means only 0.5 higher ERA but you can pitch 10% more games over the next 10 years.
Anecdotal but hitters have said that the difference between ~97-100 is far more impactful than ~90-93. I don’t remember the exact numbers but maybe someone knows the quote. I’d imagine the difference between 99-102 is *massive*
Fair. As a percentage 99 to 102 is more impactful than 90 to 93 since the batter has a larger % decrease in time tracking the ball and making an impactful swing.
I’d also imagine that 102 is something no batter has seen before but 98-99 happens pretty much every game now. The novelty alone is probably super impactful.
Just now reading more about it, it also has to do with human limits. As you get closer to the max velocity that a hitter can realistically see and react to, each incremental change is exponentially more impactful. This ESPN article about Aroldis Chapman kind of expands on all of this
https://www.espn.com/blog/jayson-stark/post/_/id/890/the-mind-blowing-stats-of-aroldis-chapman
Don’t forget that extension also matters a great deal. If the pitcher is closer to the plate when he releases the ball, 97 can feel like 100.
I think Miz has the best extension in the league and he’s also throwing 102+ consistently so… basically you’re fucked.
You gotta do some extrapolation since 102 isn’t normal but there seems to be a trend
chart - ERA vs Avg Fastball speed
Saw a show where they talked about the human eye. Some baseball documentary.
Over 100 essentially means the hitter is guessing because they cannot biologically pick up the ball.
Add in a 6 7 pitcher with crazy extension on his pitches ans the mound is essentially a few feet closer too.
100+ is still well within human reaction times, but whether it’s genuinely the velocity or the novelty guys who can dial it up that high get much better results. You can see it with Roki Sasaki. Unbelievably dominant pitcher in NPB when he could hit 102, then he got an injury that made him a medium NPB pitcher and a borderline bad MLB pitcher as his velocity was down, and as the velocity has crept back up he’s looked better and better.
Don’t ask Manny Machado
Sale hasn’t thrown 100 in a long time. Like since the white Sox according to an interview (I haven’t checked myself). But he hits 99 several times per game. I think it must be pretty hard to get those last couple mph.
I hope he looks long and hard at DeGrom’s career and injuries. Miz would be fine at 99-100, and his elbow would likely hold up a lot longer. No extra strikes for extra speed
Degrom is a freak tho even with all these injuries his velocity hasn’t really dropped who knows how Miz body reacts to injuries also we all could be wrong and he has Chapman genes
even with all these injuries his velocity hasn’t really dropped
Eh, he’s averaging ~1.5 mph less since his TJ surgery with us. It’s still weird because averaging ~97-97.5 is harder than he threw early in his career. It’s his middle career where he started pumping ~99 more regularly.
Chapman is well built though, I think those strong muscles probably help at least eliviate some stress on the elbow.
Would definitely be interested in data like this because some of the most injured pitches we’ve had are more “well built” like Woodruff or even Corbin Burnes. Even Logan Henderson is constantly getting hurt. My guess is it’s much more mechanical than anything else. Or just are you a freak or not, who knows.
Like does Miz or Christo have more of an injury risk from pitching compared to Skenes? I honestly don’t know since it’s not a contact sport.
yeah its a probably a combination of everything. I’d imagine with miz, and probably any long arm pitchers, the length of your arm would have a correlation with the stress on the elbow form a pure physical/mechanical point of view (thinking like a catapult almost, longer span maybe = more power but more stress), then its all about your muscle / ligament genes, how elastic / strong it is, recovery speeds and so on. I think all that power and force, has to essentially escape somewhere. More elastic pitchers like Yamamoto, can probably channel that through his body and let it escape better, stressing out the ligaments less. But anyway, i’m just a noob at this and its all pure guesses lol.
I hope he looks long and hard at deGrom’s career earnings and stays the course.
Not saying this to be argumentative, but ACL surgeries have genuinely gotten better. Can always take a bet that the bottom won’t actually ever fall out.
Maybe he’s just a freak of nature. Aroldis Chapman has never gotten Tommy John despite his velocity and long career. It can definitely happen again
Miz has thrown 78 innings this season so far, which is more than Chapman has ever thrown in a full season. Just way more risk with so many more pitches and innings.
His mechanics seem pretty normal though. I’m not sure he has any more injury risk than any other starter out there throwing 99.
His extensions of his front leg is kind of weird he digs his foot and kind of pops his knee, I could see him losing velo if his knee becomes damaged from that
Yup the worry is his lower body
He often slips and hyperextends his landing knee
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He might hit 105 as a closer.
104.2 in a playoff relief appearance last year
And he’s sitting an mph or two higher this year than last….
Ive always assumed the same. Did a little research in to it…
Mis has great mechanics and lower body strenght especially for his height hes a giant lever and uses it to his advantage with huge lower leg drive. Dude actually has a noticeable ass which is rare for a 6’7 guy.
It also rare for a guy who throws his body in to their pitches like that to have such good control.
Hes putting a lot of torque on his arm but hes mechanically sound and not arm throwing the baseball.
Hes still in uncharted territory but I went from “100% tommy John within 2 years” to…“it wouldn’t surprise me either way”
His pitching may be the only way fans come back this time from the strike, so protect his elbow at all costs.
I just hope his elbow doesn’t literally explode mid-pitch, live on TV
Oh he def getting Tommy John next year
Why are there so many fans that just root for blown elbows? The discourse was the same for Skenes when he came into the league
Because pitcher injuries are a dime a dozen in this league and weirdos on the internet want to act like they’re Nostradamus for trying to predict that it’ll happen eventually
Quasimodo
No one wants it to happen, but it feels inevitable. Aroldis Chapman is the only example I can think of who never had one while throwing 100+ regularly.
Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan both avoided it, and Verlander avoided health problems until he was pretty old.
Right - like what made them avoid those injuries? Doctors should be studying them!
Well they were all tall. Skenes and Miz got that covered.
Nolan Ryan at 6’2 is not particularly tall for a pitcher
Nolan Ryan wasn’t pitching max effort velo every pitch like modern guys.
Max effort Nolan is like 107, so yeah sitting at 98 was cruising for the genetic freak.
He needs to be studied.
Move over raw milk, through the power of breast milk you too can throw 100 mph
Homelander has entered the chat
Please stop reminding us
He pitches almost entirely with his lower body which substantially reduces the strain on his arm
To see a guy throw as hard as he does and not expect people to bring up his potential injury risk is wild. Like how fragile do you have to be to get offended by that? Injuries are part of the game. Especially for pitchers.
Nobody is offended by it it’s just a little old seeing a Miz post and half of the comments are people adding in the very novel and interesting to discuss his elbow is going up implode angle. We get it.
It’s the internet. Theres literally millions of people on it. There will never be a shortage of people to bring up pretty much anything. Best to learn to ignore it after the 1 millionth time you’ve seen it.
So keep it to yourself. We dont need to bring it up in every single post about the guy.
Yeah, how dare you express an opinion on reddit
Most people it’s okay to, but I get the feeling that you shouldn’t be
You should try that again with a complete sentence this time.
It can’t be helped if you don’t know how to read.
When your opinion is speculating about when someone will get injured, yes.
Oh bullshit, its just your guy so you’re in your feelings about it. I personally hope he doesn’t get hurt but if you’re going to push your body to its physical limits in front of millions of viewers, people are going to talk about it.
Pretty sure every pitcher throws as hard as they can bud, it’s just that he can throw harder than everyone else.
Believe it or not, max effort every pitch is a relatively new thing to be common for starting pitchers. Since that change has happened, arm injury rates have skyrocketed. In this case, combine that with that knee hyperextension on every pitch makes sustainability a legitimate question.
Hey everyone, the comment police are here!
Straight to jail
Yep. It’s a pretty gross thing this sub does.
Is acknowledging the risks of throwing this hard footing for a blown out elbow? I hope he keeps it up and never needs TJ, but throwing this hard isn’t exactly easy on the elbow
There’s acknowledging it and then there’s most of the discussion being “well I hope he doesn’t blow his elbow out” rather than “holy shit we’re seeing something that’s never happened before”
then there’s most of the discussion being “well I hope he doesn’t blow his elbow out”
How is that rooting for a blown elbow?
Miz is amazing, but I also think the concerns about hurting himself aren’t overblown either. Pun intended.
I’m a filthy casual but are there any concerns over his technique or mechanics? I stopped paying attention to baseball in the early 2000s and have recently been back in the mix.
From what I’ve watched his speed looks quite effortless which would lead me to believe it’s more sustainable than a reliever or closer coming in to throw as hard as possible for 2+ innings. But then again there are more 100+ throwers now than I’ve ever seen. It’s wild.
It’s not about technique or mechanics. The problem is that ligaments just aren’t made to throw the ball that hard.
The problem is really the opposite, his mechanics and athleticism is so extreme that he can do things that the human body isn’t made to do.
With luck his ligaments are strong enough to keep up, but there is cause for concern.
I don’t think anyone’s “rooting” for blown elbows, but it is worth wondering if this is actually necessary.
I point to Jacob deGrom. He was an amazing pitcher in 2018-2019, winning the Cy Young in both years. He was very good, but then in 2020 and especially 2021 he ramped up what he was throwing even more. What happened? He got injured. And then he got injured again. And then he blew his elbow.
Was that necessary? Would he have been on the IL as much if he just stuck with his 18⁄19 style of pitching? I don’t know, but I would definitely take a health 2019 deGrom over an injured 2021 deGrom any day of the week.
I wish every thread of a good young flame thrower didn’t start with speculation about when their elbow will blow out. It’s so tired. The guys know the risk of pitching. Guys throwing 90 tear up their arms all the time.
I haven’t really seen anyone rooting for it? Just a lot of people that think it’s inevitable. I don’t think that’s too weird of an opinion
They are going to have to start wearing reinforced helmets.
https://i.imgur.com/Vv1BOi4.png
That’s not the worst idea :)
He has an electric fastball for sure
He has an electric everything
bro’s spirit animal is the electric eel
Pikachu, jolteon, electabuzz…
So cool. Just please stay healthy
This dude is basically the modern Nolan Ryan, hopefully with the famously tough elbow too.
No. He can throw strikes.
Yeah! Maybe one day Mis will break the all time strikeout record held by…Nolan Ryan.
but not the walks is the point
That’s pretty clearly not the implication of the post that I replied to.
It kind of is. There are people who believe Nolan Ryan’s records are simply a function of playing a ridiculous number of innings and not due to his ability to throw strikes. As he also has the highest number of walks by almost 1,000 over second place. He has like 2800 to 1800 for second place.
“He can throw strikes,” with nothing more, implies Ryan didn’t throw strikes. I’m aware of the debate over Ryan’s records, but that clearly isn’t what that person’s comment said. Really nothing else to discuss about it.
And continued throwing 102 into the 7th.
Wild. Everyone throws so fast these days. I miss the control of old timers
I wish the Knuckleball and the Forkball would make a come back😮💨
Greg Maddux would never get signed today
Maddux had plus velocity for the era, it just wasn’t the headliner because his control was so otherworldly
Yeah, he’s viewed almost like a soft-tosser by today’s fans. While was never a flamethrower, he also wasn’t just tossing meatballs up there and getting by with good movement and location.
The velocity of today’s average pitcher has climbed so dramatically compared to then.
That’s so true. Wild to even think about
Imanaga and Ober are both fairly old school in that regard. The problem is it doesn’t work for like half the time
Ranger when he is in a groove is the closest we have imo
That’s a good comp
It’s interesting how many people here either haven’t actually watched Miz or are just groupthinking in a way.
Because I keep seeing this “he needs to lower his velo and sit at 99-100 and pump up when he needs to. If you watch him that’s exactly what he does lol.
First inning it’s usually 100-102 with 104 when he pumps up. After that he sits like 98-101 and can pump up to 103 without adrenaline.
Mods removed my 800 upvote post on it from yesterday…
this dude is insane. Just pure filth
Here’s hoping that this guy stays in the NL his entire career.
His arm is gonna self destruct soon
If Miz can stay healthy he’s going to be a force of nature.
How many times did Randy Johnson get Tommy John surgery?
That’s an unfair comparison. A bird gave its life to keep Randy healthy.
Well then it’s a good thing that Mis has 100th percentile extension, isn’t it?
He’s got electric stuff for sure. But the question is, how long can he keep it up?
As much as other pitchers. It’s not like he’s putting a lot more pressure on his arm and actually takes off as he’s been said to get around 106 at full force. Dude was just given the perfect throwing mechanics, long ass arms and has one of the most perfect launch’s angles you can get.
I hope that he stays healthy forever because I have a fondness for the Brewers, but he absolutely is putting a lot more pressure on his arm.
Just like every tick of velocity reduces the opponent’s offensive statistics, every tick of velocity increases stress on the ulnar collateral ligament. Fastballs cause the most elbow varus torque.
Sure, but it’s a very minuscule amount of tourque when going from upper 90s which other top end starters are at) to 101 which is generally where he’s at.
I’m not saying there’s not a risk throwing this high in velocity. I’m just saying it’s not really greater than some of the other top guys.
it’s a very minuscule amount of tourque when going from upper 90s which other top end starters are at) to 101 which is generally where he’s at.
The exact opposite of this is true. It is significantly more torque the more the velocity increases.
That is incorrect. He is at much higher risk than someone who throws 95 mph, just as throwing 95 mph is much higher risk than throwing 90 mph.
Dude. I don’t know what’s with this sub but there’s no explaining it to them.
Do you have actual proof of these claims?
Look up Comparative Analysis of Kinetic Variables Between Different Pitch Types in Professional Baseball Pitchers by Dr. John Streepy as well as Fastball Velocity and Elbow-Varus Torque in Professional Baseball Pitchers by Dr. Jonathan S. Slowik.
I’m assuming you just googled these because the first one doesn’t really correlate at all and really just shows that throwing a curve is less taxing on your elbow than a fastball(who knew lol). But still nothing proving that a 101 fastball is exponentially more dangerous than a 98 mph fastball. Also these things are very tough to compare apples to apples since height, arm length and extension, hip and leg rotation speed, etc go into recorded speed velocity.
I’m assuming you just googled these
You assume incorrectly. I have been paid to write about MLB since 1998, and part of my job is staying informed regarding baseball related research.
the first one doesn’t really correlate at all and really just shows that throwing a curve is less taxing on your elbow than a fastball(who knew lol).
It does correlate if you bothered to read the data, which you obviously didn’t. Furthermore, awareness that fastballs produce greater strain on the elbow is actually a fairly recent biomechanical revelation, as it was believed for decades that curveballs and sliders placed more stress on the elbow than fastballs.
But still nothing proving that a 101 fastball is exponentially more dangerous than a 98 mph fastball.
The second study provides conclusive data of exactly that. I knew before I even posted the titles that you would reject the information and that your question was rhetorical. You’re not interested in genuinely knowing the truth; you only want confirmation of your preferred belief that Misiorowski is at no greater risk. I understand why you want to believe that given that you are a Brewers fan, but what you want to believe has no effect on reality.
Also these things are very tough to compare apples to apples since height, arm length and extension, hip and leg rotation speed, etc go into recorded speed velocity.
Different players will indeed have different risk factors based on their physical characteristics and throwing motions. That being said, the available data tells us that Misiorowski would be at substantially reduced risk of ulnar collateral ligament damage if he scaled back his velocity to 97 mph. The harder a pitcher throws, the more risk they incur.
Your assertion that “it’s a very minuscule amount of tourque when going from upper 90s” was based on no knowledge or research or anything other than your wish for that to be true. But it isn’t.
Sure. And I’m Babe Ruth
You’re not “given” throwing mechanics. You work at them. Throwing a baseball overhand is the most unnatural movement in sports. The human body is just not designed to do it. It’s why softball players can pitch 4 complete games in a weekend and baseball pitchers need 5 days rest.
You definitely put more stress on the arm throwing at those speeds and not just the arm, the whole body. And the kids not built like aroldis Chapman.
As a cubs fan I’ve seen “Perfect mechanics” before. And I think we all know how mark prior turned out.
What? You 100% can have natural throwing ability. lol Sure he’s spent years improving but some things you just can’t teach.
Obviously he’s putting more stress than a guy throwing 90 mph fastballs, but he’s not putting a lot more stress than other pitchers throwing in the upper 90s.
You do not have a “natural throwing ability” to throw 103. That’s not a “you just can’t teach that” thing. You may be born with the capacity to achieve it, but that capacity is not fulfilled without years of hard work and dedication.
Not to be rude, but I assumed that stuff was given and just common sense. Obviously he’s not coming out of his mom’s stomach throwing 103 mph heaters. But like you said he’s has the natural ability to get up to this velocity which is not something you can simply teach. Otherwise every pitcher would be doing it.
I agree with your statement and could have worded my original statement better. But I still stick by it.
Saying that he has natural ability to do something means that he would be able to do it regardless of what he has done in his career to get to where he’s at. Just because you have the capacity to achieve something doesn’t mean that you will automatically achieve it. If he decided to be a chess player and never worked out a day in his life, he wouldn’t be able to throw this hard.
There are plenty of people who are born with the capacity to throw this hard, but because there are so many factors that go into throwing this hard it’s a rare feat. He’s just an example of the capacity meeting the hard work to get there.
Once again I figured this stuff was common sense. But if you want to make it a nitpick argument I’ll let you have it. Good job, bye👍
I thought it was common sense too yet here I am having to explain it to you🤷♂️ bye bye
I give it 2 seasons max
Awesome, just control that heat and don’t throw at players heads 👍
It wasn’t even his fastball