NBA discourse went from ‘wow this is a great series’ to ‘trade everyone and investigate the franchise’ after literally every close loss

Honestly this is what playoffs should be about. Two good teams going at it and neither one backing down. The hot take machine just can’t handle close series without inventing drama.

Fwiw they’re tied in total points scored for the series, 543-543

The “where’s Jalen Duren?” question is ever looming and a conversation worth having. He’s been bad enough that the conversation isn’t rooted in drama farming.

You have to understand, modern basketball discourse has 2 type of teams.

Frauds, and teams that only beat frauds. No one gets respect. Everything has an asterisk.

Noted genius Chauncey Billups. But yeah it’s been a fun series and all the bullshit around it is dumb. Reffing seems standard for the post season. You could tell me any outcome for this series and I’d believe it, compelling stuff.

No you have to understand the series is terrible and both teams are frauds because it wasn’t a sweep

https://xkcd.com/904/

If we lose tonight it’s over

The narratives come up bc it’s a slow basketball week. Only 2 ongoing series

The reason why the narratives around this series are so dramatic is because jobs and rosters are on the line depending on who wins and loses. The postseason makes each team have to face serious questions about itself.

If the Cavs lose:

• Did the Cavs just trade away a young point guard for an aging Harden that didn’t actually improve the team?
• What is Evan Mobley exactly? There was a game in which he had a single rebound and single digit points and hasn’t made any sort of leap that any of us were expecting or projecting of him
• Is Donovan Mitchell good enough to be a number 1 option for a championship calibre team?
• Is it finally time to break up the Mobley / Allen front court? Which do you trade?
• Is Donovan Mitchell going to sign his extension heading into next season? If not, what do you do?
• Is Kenny Atkinson the man for the job if the Cavs keep coming up short and he hasn’t been able to extract any of Evan Mobley’s potential?

If the Pistons lose:

• How much do you pay Jalen Duren this offseason when he basically disappeared for the entire postseason?
• How do you reconfigure this team so that Cade isn’t doing literally everything offenseively for everyone, including himself?
• Are you a “fake” 1-seed / 60-win team? How good are you really if you win 60 games but flame out in the second round?

Obviously the stakes are lower for the Pistons because they’re the younger team with a ton of upside. But not making it to the conference finals when the Celtics got knocked out in the first round then the 76ers get clobbered the round afterwards is a little bit of a disappointment.

Also, I cannot stress enough Duren disappearing makes you look at your roster construction pretty differently because you cannot afford to overpay a centre that doesn’t rebound, defend or score in the postseason, this is something that’s become an anchor around the Raptors neck with Jakob Poeltl

you’re not supposed to say positive things about basketball in this subreddit

Drama and overreaction is what sells clicks now on the internet. It’s disgusting but true.

Competitive basketball may rule but it’s gonna suck when facing a rested and prepped Knicks

Had both of these teams looked different in round 1 it would be a completely different story. Both teams went to 7 against drastically inferior opponents based on the regular season and overall talent on the roster.

If these guys both looked like killers in the first round then this series would be viewed differently. However since the Raptors and Magic took them to 7 and now they’re both struggling and have meh execution it’s viewed differently than the Spurs Wolves series is.

Agree with your post! Sports media narratives are incredibly overhyped and sensationalistic. It’s never enough to just write about the series, you have to overreact wildly and take shots at someone. This series is great

Problem is, there’s a big contingent of fans these days more interested in their narratives than competitive basketball. But yeah, it’s been a great series.

Think your history might be a bit fuzzy.

Pistons won in 2004. Beat Bucks, NJ, Pacers, Lakers. (No Cavs)

Pistons lost in the Finals in 2005 to San Antonio. (So didn’t lose to the Cavs.)

All I know is Detroit fans were talking crazy shit all season and all they’ve done this playoffs is look like an embarrassment

Its been great to watch. As a pistons fan I’m more upset with Duren then any of the referee stuff. Dudes about to get paid and is playing like a 2 way player.

But don’t you know? In this sub if you lose even by just a point - that team is trash, a fraud, players are bums, etc

One thing I’ve been grateful for, is that somehow our series with the Spurs hasn’t been laden with a bunch of narratives, or at least they aren’t dominating discussions here.

Very hard to have any conversation in this sub. Everything is a choke, every team is a fraud. Every game is the worst game ever played. If a team doesn’t sweep the other they have no chance at doing anything. It’s all very very stupid

Hey we don’t do no actual game analysis with deep thoughts here in the NBA community!!! It’s all knee-jerk armchair-qb, “they wanted it more” barbershop bullshit, ya hear!!! And that’s the way we like it!!

Cavs-Pistons and Twolves-Spurs have been excellent series. It’s a shame more conference semifinals seem to go like the other two series now where one team is leagues better.

Late stage capitalism sports media in a nutshell

That’s part of the issue now. Dudes are here for drama, not basketball. Especially with 2 teams that have very little “star power” for the casuals.

“Competitive”

Maybe competitive losing.

Both teams keep looking to give it away to the other.

Dramatic narratives are provocative… it gets the people going.

I’m just wondering about the Pistons. There was talk about them getting a big name, like MPJ or Markkanen. But they said they were good. Robinson and Harris was enough shooting.

Seems to me like they could use a big shooter, but I guess they know better.

I agree with the basic concept of your post but people would be slandering Jalen Duren even if the Pistons had won games 3 and 5.

Yep. This is what it’s supposed to look like.

¹⁰⁄₁₀ take. A lot of these series hinge on the smallest things and luck. Even though the outcomes determine the futures, salaries, legacies, etc., to pay attention to that alone is to miss out on the fact that it’s just great hoops.

Dude you nailed it with this post

This century basketball is like that. One day narratives and clickbait

as a knicks fan i get to shit talk both teams no matter the outcome so i’m a fan

I noticed this after spurs/wolves game 1. Came down to the last second but all the post-game narratives were about how the wolves played a great game and the spurs played a bad one.

I couldn’t agree more. It’s one of the most frustrating things about sports narratives to me. The conclusion is never “this team had a slight edge via x,y,z and also some very fortunate moments”. It’s all sunshine on one side and doom and gloom on the other.

I suppose that without the doom and gloom, we wouldn’t have anything for Stephen A. Smith to scream about. Also, people struggle with uncertainty and randomness, and like to assume that everything is simpler and easier to explain than it is. Thus, the narratives

Yeah it’s annoying, two evenly matched teams going at each other doesn’t mean they are bad cause they aren’t dominating, it just means they are evenly matched lol

It’s the playoffs. It’s only reactionary narratives

Man I love to see this and I hate to see how unpopular it is but that’s this sub and basketball discourse broadly.

Watching two teams trying to give away an important game was very entertaining.

It’s just a battle for second place anyways. Whoever comes out of the west is putting it to anyone from the east. Either OKC or the Spurs and if the wolves manage to make it to the finals, it’s probably written in the stars for them.

It’s true that outcomes tend to drive media narratives, however, using the Duren thing as an example, I don’t think that dialogue is going away, and I don’t think the narratives around this series are necessarily wrong. My take on the Pistons during the playoffs so far is they are basically going as far as Cade can take them. Win or lose, Duren has been disappointing. If the Pistons had won Game 5, Paul Reed would have still been taking the crunch time minutes. That’s a troubling thing to consider when you are about to max him out, so I don’t think that narrative about Duren is unfair. He was getting outplayed by Wendell Carter in the Orlando series. His performance is a totally fair thing to go after.

I also don’t think this “both teams are awesome” take is correct. Both of these teams have exhibited huge flaws during these runs. Lots of inconsistency all around. The series is fun to watch and competitive, and I wouldn’t call these teams bad, but awesome? No. They are both decent playoff teams with some weaknesses.

Regarding the “blow everything up” stuff, I don’t think the punditry is wrong to ask those questions either given the cap situation and the CBA. Duren is going to ask for the max. Harden needs to be re-signed. Mitchell has been a Cav for a while and hasn’t had the success they are looking for. Not only are these big decisions, but they lock these teams in. Just look at the Sixers. If they want to move off Embiid or George, it’s going to be very tough and probably require giving up assets.

Where I really agree with you though is the “do they want it enough” nonsense. I think all of these guys want to win and care deeply. I don’t think Duren lacks the “dawg” factor, but I think he has perhaps been a little overwhelmed in the playoffs. But it is always silly when the media wants to suggest that the winners care more.

Anyway, even if I don’t quite agree I think you make some interesting points about overreactions by the sports media. I just think this series isn’t the best example.

It just doesn’t matter though. The Thunder are so much better than everyone. Only the Spurs have a chance. Everything else is just playing for 2nd place.

I don’t think this series is running anyone’s legacy, but it should have major implications because both teams are now in “win now” mode.

The Cavs are not spending that amount of money, and trading a young guard for an old one, so they can lose in the second round to a team as flawed as Detroit. It would be one thing if they did all that, but got run over by a 2017 Warriors-style juggernaut. But they simply don’t look like legitimate contenders. If they can’t even get past a team that is desperately reliant on Tobias Harris to generate offense, they should make drastic changes to the most expensive roster in the league.

Even if they make it past Detroit, it would take catastrophic injuries to the Knicks to help get Cleveland to the Finals & even moreso in the actual Finals. I think OKC could still beat Cleveland even if Shai and J-Dub sat out the entire series. Against San Antonio, their only hope would be Wemby missing the whole series.

As for Detroit - every fear about them played out exactly. They are desperate for more shooting and offensive creation to come from someone besides Cade.

And now they have to really wonder about what to do with Duren. They should absolutely keep him - he’s still so young and talented - but they can’t feel good about maxing him in the off season. And if they don’t offer him a max-ish contract, is he going to turn it down, or request a trade? This playoff run has been a disaster for him and has muddied Detroit’s clarity on how he fits into the future.

They also need to start to think about what Ausar means to them. His lack of offensive ability and shooting is a huge problem at his position. When a guy is young, you let him play through that because you need to give him time to figure that out. But what if he doesn’t? Then he’s basically Matisse Thybulle - fantastic wing defender playing a position that can’t afford to be a zero on offense.

So there are major implications for both teams, because they both want to win right now. But you’re right - we should make sure to still enjoy close games and hard-fought battles on the court.

Just to correct you, the Pistons did not beat the Cavs and go on to win the championship. They won in 04 but not the year they beat Cleveland in 06. And then Cleveland beat them in 2007 and went on to lose to SAS.

Agree with your points about the series though, especially as someone who has ties to both franchises.

Honestly Harden getting a ring with Cavs would be a lot more entertaining and fulfilling than OKC or spurs winning

Definitely either team can win but I think the Cavs unlocking something is a factor after losing the first 2 and winning in Detroit which was huge for their confidence. Especially after being down 9 with 2 minutes left.

Just like the pistons won the first 2, then we won the last 3, the pistons could easily win the next 2.

This dramatic swing everytime the series changes is just good competition/adjustments. Modern ESPN and media just thrive on hatred and overdramatization.

Both teams are good but have a tendency to randomly go cold if things stop clicking. The cavs, when they’re hot, are a little better than Detroit when they’re hot

Only narratives I have really seen is that Harden is a “playoff dropper” and Cade turns the ball over too much in the playoffs because there’s no second ballhandler and both were out there before the playoffs started.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don’t follow basketball as much as I wish I did these days, but my hometown Cavs have the most expensive roster in the league? Is that mostly Mitchell and Harden? Holy moly.

May Detroit and Minnesota both force Game 7s tonight!

Also Jalen Duren is 22. Sure he lost the max but ppl talk about him and Palo like their career is over

Game 5 had the additional drama led by the announcers’ narrative (that Ausar was tripped, which should have been a foul). The no-call was correct, but the narrative had already been established.

Pistons’ lack of depth is magnified with DR out. Cavs being healthier is a big advantage.

If we could just make our shots consistently this would be a completely different scenario right now. We’re down to our last chance but one good run of luck and we can force a game 7 at home. Cavs obviously aren’t going to give it to us but we’ll have to see how this plays out.

I get this isn’t the thread for it but at the same time this is absolutely the thread for it. The next time someone complains about why Adam Silver won’t do anything about Scott Foster or whoever screwing over your favorite team, remember stuff like this. He won’t do anything because even Redditors can’t help but continue watching the NBA. I agree. Competitive basketball is great and entertaining. And as long as the NBA can still put on games like this, a ton of people will be fine turning a blind eye to the gambling controversies or the Aspire BS or Tim Donaghy’s best friend being the NBA’s go-to referee. NBA fans have no self control. I’m sure a ton of the people in this thread (and those inevitably about to downvote this as I hit “save”) are part of the “I don’t care just give me good basketball” crowd. But I guarantee there are also a ton of people in this thread who have bitched or regularly still do bitch about the officiating, yet turn around and financially support the product anyway. It’s like little kids in front of a bag of potato chips.