You don’t even have to go back that far lol

Manu Ginobili too

Nah have you guys even bothered watching the games or even the highlights from back then? He only got so many FTs because he was completely unstoppable due to his touch and altheticism.

Same goes for someone physically dominant like Shaq. Nobody would ever call him a foul baiter although he certainly should’ve practiced his FTs

Ginobili or Reggie Miller or Divac are good examples of older gen players who relied on foul baiting as a part of their games. Not Jordan lmao

Jordan wasn’t a flopper, so I doubt it. If Jordan tried flopping, the next time he drove to the basket, he would have been laid out. Pistons, Knicks, etc, used to hack the shit out of Jordan. The closest thing to flopping Jordan would do was trying to take charges.

Edit: lmao, downvoted. I swear this sub is filled with 14 year olds who have never seen basketball pre-2020.

Jordan definitely got a soft, superstar whistle. He was never a flopper though.

Were you even alive when he was playing?

You were allowed to handcheck Jordan. There’s always flopping but you weren’t trying to tag somebody and pretend you were shooting.

The idea was to get a clean shot on the basket, not look for high percentage spots on the floor.

It is fundamentally different.

Ehh. He went to the line a lot because they can’t stop him. Either he gets a layup/dunk or you foul him. You don’t see him flopping or foul baiting though.

There are older players that would get a lot of criticism like Manu. And yeah, I’m a Spurs fan.

For what? MJ was not a flopper… not even close to a flopper.

His raw and era adjusted free throw rates aren’t even that notable. Don’t believe me? Go look at this FTR+ numbers on basketball reference.

MJ averaged double digit FTA 3 times in his career. Embiid has averaged double digit FTA 5 times in his career, Harden: 7 times. Nevermind in Jordan’s era you’d get hit in the mouth if you even thought about shooting 10+ threes, so they were driving into the paint where most shooting fouls are called.

Not a good comparison in the slightest

why? he was actually attempting to score and getting contact

not flopping at invisible snipers in the building

It’s all subjective and ppl are just hypocrites like Butler’s pr is still fine.

I remember refs saying they would get fed up with MJ asking for a foul and say something like “Michael, you know I can’t just call a foul every time you drive to the basket”

That’s one thing I’ve never understood. You put hyper competitive Jordan into today’s game with today’s rules? 100% he’s playing a different style and getting to the line a dozen times a game at least. It’s how you win a modern game and Michael Jordan the psycho competitive asshole grows a moral backbone and isn’t bumping and flailing around? Right.

During last dance docs when jordan play celtic where he score 63 pts some of the foul call was so bad. If he does that today there would be a highlight of bad call

Kobe would’ve been the most hated player ever, he was (relatively) inefficient, and went to the line a lot, and whatever off the court stories there were would’ve been 10x worse.

I think people should at least be consistent about how they don’t like it, it cant be okay for some players but not for others

I’ll give Colin Cowherd this when he put it well yesterday: Basketball is the most artistic and creative sport and when you go to the line it removes that entire aspect. There’s no magic happening at the line

You don’t have to like it as a fan of the game yes, but why is everyone pounding on Shai like he’s the only player drawing fouls? Why don’t we see any Lakers flairs talk about Luka being at the top in FTA? It’s the hypocrisy that’s hilarious.

It just means there will be endless discourse on it like it’s some new phenomenon

Y’all are haters not fans tbh. Tired of the “discussion”, it’s always a biased hit piece for clicks.

Saying shit like that means you haven’t it since the early 90s…

Of course he’s right. Dude is legitimately smart as hell and a good coach.

It’s hilarious watching this sub try to strawman the argument. Everyone knows it’s a skill and it’s beneficial. It doesn’t mean it’s enjoyable to watch and shouldn’t be illegal. In fact, it literally is illegal and they just don’t enforce it.

Edit: by it, I mean flopping. Not foul drawing. No one gives af about foul drawing.

I dont really care about the foul/flop narrative, but the person coaching AR and Luka is obviously not going to bring negative attention to it

Would love to see a basketball intent rule. Like if your only purpose in that motion is to draw a foul and not to make a basketball play then it’s not a foul

Deni Avdija lead the league in and-1s this year. Don’t know if you’ve seen people talk about his foul-drawing, but I don’t think a lack of scoring intent is really the issue there.

I wonder what the and-1 leaderboard is like for the season

From nba.com official stats, SGA is in the 74th percentile this year in and 1 %. This means that he finishes through contact at a higher rate than ³⁄₄ of the league. So you have fun watching SGA then by your own admission that scoring through contact is fun correct?
Source: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?dir=D&sort=PTS

Shai constantly scores and1s and does it with the same facial expression and body movements as the non shooting fouls and the made baskets

Sounds like you’d like SGAs game if you watched the games instead of clips.

Been a talking point for Ant as well for awhile.  He’s a bit hobbled right now, but at full health he finishes through contact constantly and they don’t call anything.

That’s why to me, the ultimate issue is the rules/officiating over what individual players are doing. The current system encourages selling fouls and discourages scoring through contact. It’s on the NBA incentivizing less entertaining basketball, not the players trying to win.

Game is so fast that I think you need to be able to “show” the referees that you got fouled, otherwise it’s easy to miss

Although i think that’s a little different to the discussion here. Murray writes: “As Redick said, getting to the free-throw line is a skill in itself, but it is also the byproduct of the ability to create or possess other physical advantages. Players with great ballhandling skills, footwork, acceleration, quickness, speed or size can put themselves in position to draw heaps of free throws. The best scorers are going to draw fouls, knowing that a defense has to find a way to stop them otherwise.”

I think the best offensive players in the league are so good and so in control that they can manipulate defenders and put them in positions where they have no choice but to foul

tbf GSW’s fault is on their moving screens (and Zaza Pachulia’s clumsiness for a bit). Steph in isolation is ethical af.

And he gets to the line around 5-6 times per game during his best seasons, whereas SGA Luka Giannis and co go 9-10 times per game (Giannis might go like 12 one year but that’s also partially because of hack a shaq type behavior)

2 extra trips to the line isn’t all that insane considering how their games are literally based around driving and getting contact in large part. It’s literally people having insane double standards and just cherry picking to support their whiny narrative.

I watched MJ. He absolutely wasn’t a flop artist the way Shai is. He was more athletic and attacked the defense constantly which is why he shot a bunch of FTs.

Also acting like Chicago is a small town is wild lol

Why didn’t he play there ?

You didnt watch the whole game did you. Youre using like 1-3 moments in the game to justify your opinion. Before you say thats 1 too many times believe me. Its reasonable for it to happen especially when your team is not up ahead by multiple buckets. You want to win the damn game not entertain fans to appease their criticisms.

if we can review fouls to determine if their flagrant, we can review fouls when we expect terrible flopping

The problem so many fans have: most flops are fouls. Most flops probably still would’ve been called without the embellishments.

I’m not sure why fans think they are just so much smarter than referees who get paid to study methods in officiating, but they know when flopping occurs. They just also know if something was a foul

Pedantry to justify hating players you don’t like and give a pass to the ones you do

Look up dwade pump fakes lol

My bad bro, replied to the wrong guy

Conflating two different arguments.

Drawing an actual foul is a skill. Pretending you were fouled when nothing happened is also a skill, but much more annoying to watch. There’s no actual contradiction, people are fine watching one and not the other.

What on earth are you talking about

Find us them clips of MJ driving to the basket and acting like Daffy Duck before he even gets breathed on by a defender.

jordan didn’t need to oversell the contact cuz the ref’s would blow it anyways, lmao
like honestly the best superstar whistle in league history

They’re definitely out there you probably just haven’t felt compelled to look lol

Look harder next time

https://youtu.be/M3DtTZoeNYc?si=r54vZ5OUDIVKbfsn

https://youtu.be/7WocVZ7wkEM?si=RQJV74unIIHfQisQ

https://youtu.be/9i7x7FcPm34?si=OmIrhQu1eNrnRBiQ

Missing out brother

Well it was probably just his particular style of play than anything. Harder to draw fouls on a jump shot than on a drive. And no one wants to be the dummy that fouled on a three point shot.

I watched Shai against my own team pull a rip through move and not get the call.

I then watched the internet cry and say he was flopping seemingly forgetting rip throughs are foul.

Most flops are embellishments. SGA, Luka, Brunson, etc. get fouled and then try to ensure they get the call 95% of the time.