This is actually a good point, and an objective difference I haven’t seen in this thread till your comment. Especially considering it was the first round that had less games, it would’ve been pretty easy for MJ to have racked up more playoff wins off that change alone

Yeah but it’s a nothing burger, it’s a difference of like 10 or so extra first round playoff games Jordan could have played. LeBron has 70 more playoff wins than Jordan

Dirk has arguably the greatest playoff run ever.

But outside of those 16 wins in 2012 2011, it’s not like his Dallas team was known for a ton of playoff success. They famously lost 4-2 against the 8 seeded Warriors.

Russell won almost twice as many rings as Jordan and played 2 fewer seasons

Than

very true

Playing less isn’t a flex.

And didn’t bounce to form super teams.

Even a few years ago I would’ve engaged, but now I just come to see how salty people get.

Feast or fest?

Lmao fair enough.

I think it’s just a matter of what the individual considers the criteria for being the GOAT: Insane peak/accolades or Insane longevity? Either way it’s subjective.

You are over simplifying the argument to try and make your argument seem better

Undeniably ?

LeBron’s longevity is the greatest. I think most people would choose MJ’s career.

How is he the undeniable GOAT? Because Jordan has him cleared on accolades while playing less seasons. Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, Scoring titles, a DPOY, All Defensive selections. You could literally combine LeBron and KD’s accolades and Jordan still clears. People talk as if Jordan’s only claim is 6-0 but no, that’s just one of the things he has on others. Not to mention getting a threepeat twice is crazy. Only 3 teams in history has done a threepeat (if you count Minneapolis and LA Lakers as one). The last time we had a threepeat was Kobe and Shaq and that was like 22 years ago. And Jordan and the Bulls did that twice. That’s something that may never happen again, considering how hard it is to even get a threepeat in the first place or even if it does happen, it’s not gonna be for a long time.

So what is the big argument for LeBron? Accumulated stats? Kareem was the number 1 in total points scored, blocked shots, FGs made, minutes played, wins, or even number of games played before, so why wasn’t he considered the GOAT then? It’s not like he didn’t win championships, he literally had more than Bron. So why are the accumulated stats more important now that LeBron has it?

Genuinely just curious, because you’re making a case that his GOAT status is undeniable and he’s orders of magnitude above but not even make any arguments. Because to me, the deciding factor is not about who played the longest, I’m going with the guy who achieved way more in less time.

He doesn’t have empty stats, it’s just MJ was better over 15 years. That’s a large enough sample size to where LeBron’s extra years while being worse doesn’t tilt it

Whenever you realize that tiers are the way to go and not literal numbered ranking, it all becomes so much better.

LeBron is a 1st tier player. Along with Mike and Kareem. Bill Russell would be 1st tier, but I think separating eras is applicable in all sports. Not because I think Bill Russell wouldn’t be unbelievable in any era, but because of the way the league was set up.

I might go with peak domination for more than just a couple years as my goat, which for me is Michael Jordan.

If you take the 10 best years of Jordan and compare them to the 10 best years of LeBron, you’ll find 6-0 in Championships and 10 scoring titles for Jordan. Even squeezing in a Defensive player of the year.

Of course, everything is debatable in this space, but for numbers there’s certainly more to it.

He has longevity stats, nobody can take that from him right now, thats about it. He wasnt won more even with more opportunities, he hasnt dominated more even with more opportunities. Next

So playing for longer but still winning less somehow makes you better?

Honestly same. I was a huge Bron hater until like ²⁰²⁰⁄₂₁ and I’ve really flipped the last few years. So grateful we get to watch him play this long

LeBron fans LOVE talking down to others as they laud LeBron’s greatness. It’s such insecure energy which invalidate everything you have to say because you need to put people down

trivially easy to deny it

I think I truly depends on how you define that term. Is the goat the best career or the best player ever. Lebron has the greatest career of any basketball player. The stats back it up. But when you look at mjs reign of dominance in tha period it’s hard to say LeBron matched that peak. Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and had 6 finals mvps. That is just a one off. There is no match to that. He had some bad playoff performances yes but on the biggest stage he went 6-0 and was the best player all 6 times.

MJ was Greater. LeBron maintained his peak longer. What do you value? Higher peak or longer peak?

MJ is the reason so many all time greats don’t have rings. He’s a piece of shit but Karl Malone was special and has no rings because of Michael Jordan. Same with Barkley. Same with Ewing. Same with Miller. There is something special about that in my book.

An undeniable goat case is an absurd claim. I think Jordan did it best by simply dissolving the question. The game has not been the same across generations. Ultimately, it’s a pointless discussion. 

Please stop

People are going to be talking about LeBron how people talk about wilt. I too was a bron hater most of his career. It around 2016 when I began to change my opinion. Now it’s just I have the most respect for him. I don’t think Kobe and Jordan could what he’s doing now at his age.

LeBron is like basketball version of a combination of Jerry Rice and Tom Brady. Definitely the goat in my eyes.

Just for sh%ts an giggles tell me about these eye-popping records that are just off the charts..

His longevity mixed with some of these absolutely eye-popping records

These aren’t two different reasons though, it’s one. The eye-popping records like career playoff wins are a direct result of his incredible longevity. If you value longevity over anything else, and who has scored the most total points in their career, then LeBron would be the clear favorite. But peak and winning are big factors in most people’s GOAT debate, and MJ has the edge in both of those in my opinion. If you ignore the parts of the debate where MJ has the edge, then of course it seems obvious that LeBron is the GOAT.

There’s also a reason we don’t just look at stats in other sports like most career touchdowns to decide the GOAT debate. If Brady didn’t exist then Brees would easily have the most career touchdowns, but no one would argue for his GOAT case

So it’s better to miss the playoffs with bad teams then make it? Poor logic. 

I don’t care about GOAT debates all but just want to shoutout KAJ for 154 playoff wins, a 65% playoff win percentage, and 6 rings.

67

got em!

You can just say from 1999-2011 than both of them combined.

If Jordan didn’t have Pippen on a ludicrous contract, how many would he have?

10 if he had Jerry Krause for a gm and a non cheapskate owner 

1.) Is it Mike’s fault that he won all six of his game 7s?

What were those? I remember the Bulls losing to the Pistons in a game seven, and don’t remember anywhere near six in total. Maybe three?

1. No

2. Wouldn’t make a difference, Bron clears even if you add a bunch of wins to MJ

3. Yeah why not, that’s completely in his control

4. Absolutely. It’s completely due to his own actions and decisions

not only that, his ancestors caught fish for a living!

And Horry as well. And Bill Russell

Always a Cade fan with the dumbass take

Aliens you say? I want IGUODALA!

I think you’re kinda combining two different questions.

First pick for 5 vs 5? I’d pick Lebron, Shaq, and Curry over Jordan. They just are slightly better complete team engines IMO

Pick 1 player to play 1 vs 1 against an alien for the fate of the planet? Then yeah Jordan.

Kobe is a good argument but Curry/Shaq? No, they’re not better than LeBron and by both eye tests and advanced stats has LeBron as the front runner by comparison. You’d have to overvalue a single or set of traits that you’re using to justify your argument for example: curry was a better 3pt shooter than LeBron, therefore he’s a better player… when you factor all skills and various measurements to determine the better player, LeBron will always come out on top by comparison. 

Yeah but Dirk has won twice as many playoff games, H2H vs Lebron, and MJ has never beat Lebron or Dirk in the playoffs, so…

Is it though? This is a wild ass stat.

No, it is a fun stat, try being less sensitive.

For me it again comes down to longevity - that’s 100% amazing in itself but a lot of these stats just follow from that.

He’s chosen what teams to play on for most of his career and moved on when their window closed. The amazing part for me is that he’s been great enough to do that for 20+ years, with teams lining up for the chance to build around him.

Why does MJ have less rings than Bill Russell while having played longer?

Oh right.