Reminder that DBPM is a bogus stat. It’s calculated by subtracting OBPM from BPM except BPM and OBPM have different formulas. One of the ways they are different is BPM gives a higher weight to assists for Centers while OBPM does not. This means that DBPM ends up counting assists as a defensive stat for Centers. Jokic’s DBPM is literally being inflated because he gets a lot of assists.

Jokic is a generational talent but with a fan club that wants to pretend he’s top 5 all time

Is defensive box minus biased to centers?

There are too many stats

Analytics nerds can find or make up any stat to support their viewpoint

At this point just presume stats are propaganda

Defensive box plus minus is more frequently cited when people want to discredit boxscore advanced stats/ basketball reference advanced stats. Jokic has never made an all-defensive team and never will. None of the media members or voters for awards care about this stat.

The Jokic PR team can’t hide behind the advanced stats anymore

I’m hearing a lot of Murray and Adelman blaming, but you don’t lose a series like this if you’re a top 10-15 of all time type player.

Just another example of how stats can be misleading

The main thing for me is that with all the talk about him supposedly not even caring much about basketball, his ability to be such a massive sore loser sticks out the most lmfao

Eye Test FC wins again

All this says to me is that I can never trust DBPM because jokic had one of the worst defensive series I’ve ever seen and Rudy had one of the best.

It’s useless. Those dudes will bring up advanced stats saying LeBron is still a great defender and Luka a good defender, like we can’t see with our own eyes. They’re cones out there

In before its deleted

I think it becomes pretty obvious with eye test that he’s a very bad defender when other players get 1 on 1 opportunities against him. Hes one of the worst in the league tbh.

If your metric has Jokic as the 13th best defender in the 1st round, you need to recalculate, reevaluate, or straight up scrap your metric. Dude might not have even been the 13th best defender in this series.

There are no good Advanced Defensive stats.

Eye test matters more than people think. Especially when the opposing team uses it to turn their offense into an extension of their pre-game layup line.

DBPM is an intentionally dumb metric that ignores useful information so that it can be used for seasons before we had PBP and tracking data.

But points per game allowed at the rim is also a dumb stat. Jokic leads because he played more minutes than any other big man. And the 68% FG he allowed is basically the same as other starting centers: Mobley 67%, Sengun 38%, Embiid 73%, Gobert 35%, Ayton 77%, Carter 74%, Towns 66%.

In general, the people focusing on Jokic’s defense are missing the point. Denver had a 114 DRTG, which is better than their regular season DRTG and worse then Minnesota’s regular season ORTG.

Denver’s real problem was their offense (below average 109 ORTG after leading the league in the regular season), not their defense.

Denver with Jokic on the court:

• Reg season: 128 ORTG, 117 DRTG
• Playoffs: 109 ORTG, 113 DRTG

From every distance between 0-14 feet, Jokic is the center defender with the most field goals attempted in those ranges. He’s pretty likely to have the most points scored against him given that information. Not to say that he was effective defending the paint, but you can look at players like Embiid, Ayton, and even Evan Mobley, who most would consider a good defender, and see that they’re giving up similar percentages in the paint.

ESPN’s new advanced Net Points stat also has him as a nice positive on defense lol.

Somehow only Thunder who is a better defender is Ajay Mitchell lmfao.

https://espnanalytics.com/nba-net-pts

The Timberwolves took fewer threes than all but a few teams, with worse efficiency than all but a few teams. I think it’s obvious why the opposing team’s starting center would end up facing the most FGA at the rim.

Actually, looking at your link it seems like most of the defense-first bigs are giving up pretty similar percentages. Gobert held people to 2% worse shooting at the rim than Jokic. Mobley less than 1%.

DPM stat has to be adjust or called something else

Virgin VORP RAPTORCUM vs Chad “That boy nice”

Yeah but hes leading in DRIP and kitchen sink

At some point you gotta watch the game with your eyes, not just stats. Analytics can be valuable, but can also be altered to support any point you want, so it’s really all up to the intentions of the person making/using the stat.

No he can’t guard a pick and roll or defend the rim but have you seen how often he gets kick balls? That’s basically a stop

Jokic allowed 67.8% FG% at the rim during the regular season. Of guys who faced at least 1,000 attempts (Jokic had 1,283) that was 3rd worst. Only young guys Kyle Filipowski (UTA) and Maxime Raynaud (SAC) were worse (71.4% and 67.8%). Even if you drop the attempts all the way to 800, Jokic is still 3rd worst.

Chet was the best at 55.3% and Gobert was second best at 60.3%. (Wemby was 58.9%, but he didn’t qualify for FGA – only faced 909).

The injured wolves strategy was literally “attack Jokic”

DBPM accounts for assists in a defensive stat. It’s not serious at all.

This stat needs to be abolished. The calculations behind it make so many incorrect assumptions.

Most of those players that have that “I do everything on offense” style of play without being a traditional PG, are usually horrible defensively

Harden, Luka, now Jokic. I might be missing names but It feels like only prime LeBron had that specific style of play while also being an excellent defender, but even LeBron eventually started coasting the regular season cause that is ALOTTTTT

It’s really hard to be a engine like that offensively while being even a good enough defender. Jokic is a pretty big dude as well. It takes a physical toll to do everything on offense while also being a great rim protector for a dude as hefty as he is. This dude is tasked with being the main facilitator, putting up triple doubles, leading the offense night in and night out due to the inconsistent offense of Murray and others(along with Gorden’s injury issues) you think he’s gonna do all of that and be a quality defender too at the center position??? lol yea ok

If Jokic didn’t hit this wall against the wolves it would have happened against the spurs especially just dealing with Wemby ALONE not to mention the rim pressure the other spurs players would apply

I don’t always blame Jokic either cause if I’m required to do all of that on offense especially with Murray being as inconsistent as he is?? Shit yall play defense. Last I checked there’s 5 people on this fucking court for my team. Yall guard up lol

It’s why that Dallas team that made the finals was perfect for Luka. He had quality defenders around him and even Kyrie could step it up for a stretch. Luka wasn’t required to do as much defensively

Isn’t the important stat opponent FG percentage at the rim and opponent FG attempts at the rim? Jokic should be at the bottom, and Rudy among the leaders.

DBPM GOAT tho

He is an absolutely elite defensive rebounder, which should get defensive credit as I personally think people underrate the importance of it. You could block a layup, and they could get the loose ball and kick it out for a 3 and actually be a +1 net for the possession. A defensive rebound is always going to be a last word on the possession. We kinda dismiss it because there are plenty of uncontested defensive rebounds, but there’s always plenty where depending on the rebounder, is the difference between an easy putback and no points.

Denver doesn’t play defense

A lot of blame for the loss can definitely be put on the lousy perimeter defense for the nuggets being unable to stay in front of their defenders but even the Rosiest tinted glasses can’t be saying Jokic is that good of a defender

He has alot of help defense at the rim

Advanced stats used against certain players but people prop up queen James with them

Not to defend any catch all defensive stat (since they are all pretty bad), but do want to push back on the “Jokic allowed X points at the rim” talking point.

We all know Jokic isn’t a great rim protector. This is not a surprise to anyone. But the nuggets POA defense to prevent drives from happening in the first place was also very poor. Not helped by the fact that our two best defenders (and athletes) - AG and Watson - were both out.

Jokic’s defensive shortcomings need to be built around by having guys who can stop that penetration from happening in the first place. And when teams try to pull Jokic into the PNR, we often play him at the level rather than in drop (where he’s vulnerable). That leaves us susceptible on the backside to a guy cutting from the weak side to an open paint, so you also need athletic forwards (like Gordon, Watson, and formerly MPJ) who are also smart enough to rotate over to take that away.

Looking at overall points in the paint differential is probably also not the best metric to use for this series/sample size, since Rudy is the best paint protector in the league other than maybe Wemby. Either way, he’s top 2 and elite, 4x DPOY and a future hall of famer. It’s his biggest strength. Of course he’s going to suppress some of the paint points on the other end. A lot of Jokic’s “rim assists” are going to get shutdown because of Rudy.

That stat needs to be thrown out it’s just not measuring defense well

There is not a defensive stat for individuals, that us hoi polloi have access to anyway, that holds up under any kind of pressure test. Eyeball testers feast on defensive side of the ball, you can tell a lot about how much someone knows ball by how they grade out defense.

Offense side is the cosmically appropriate opposite of this, all you need is a basic understanding of the game and the ability to triangulate some stats and you can come to mostly reasonable conclusions.

So when a guy rolls through that breaks the numbers with a new style of playing it forces the nerds and meat heads and all the other types of enjoyers out there to communicate and debate each other and approach consensus take(s).

Well, you see, there’s a very simple explanation for that; DBPM is a bullshit stat.

Jokic spreadsheet fc on their way to make another defensive stats that doesnt include defense

This is why analytics are overrated.   Nothing beats the eye test. 

So you’re saying they made up a stat to prop up Jokic’s defense?

Jokic’s issue is he has the same sort of “offensive value/workload outweighs defensive liability” case as a James Harden or a Steph Curry… but a team can afford to have a weak defensive guard on the floor. You can’t afford to have no meaningful rim protection, and with AG hurt there wasn’t anything keeping the Wolves from running a layup line. Having Jokic play opportunistic, swipey, safe defense is a totally valid gameplan, but you have to compensate with rim protectors around him and they couldn’t.

Jokic have very hight basketball IQ, but if your opponent out hustle you in every aspect, BBIQ cant save you.

I’m quite happy seeing this dude brought back down to earth. He’s been the most glazed over-protected player in NBA discourse since 2020. It’s annoying af.

Mods of this sub working overtime and sweating tryna remove all the hate posts about their Horseman.

Jokic is a stat merchant

it’s so much worse than that. They have Jokic as the best player in NBA history with DBPM

Jokic has really good hands, great anticipation and timing and SOMETIMES that will slightly offset his unwillingness and inability to go vertical and contest shots near the rim.

When he can’t do that AND he his without his ace, Aaron Gordon, Denver’s paint defense is literal bbq chicken nuggets. He needs to better at defending the paint himself but the rest of the team needs some better interior defenders also.