If the Lakers blow a 3-0 lead, then you’ll see MITWestbrook come at you Lakers fans once again.

You don’t understand he’s actually a good defender!!!!! Mike Conley is just better than prime mj

Some spreadsheet nerds clearly didn’t get bullied enough as kids and it shows.

I agree, the Nuggets without AG and Watson are horrid defensively. That’s a problem with their roster construction: Around a bad rim protector like Jokic, they need a defensive-oriented roster IMO. Having a couple of injuries turn your team into a complete layup line is catastrophic roster construction.

You just made me puke

lol, lmao even.

I do this for the love of the game

Don’t need money to do what you love

Its weird.. i get that offense is the fun part and most people enjoy that more but you cant just ignore defense. The haters mostly dislike the uneven criticism. All other GOAT candidates get torched for their shortcomings because being a player of that high regard welcomes scrutiny.. like how can you be the GOAT or best player on the planet but not play defense? Its a super valid question and Jokic fanatics dont like to answer it

The way the media talks about Gordon being out, you’d think he was a 6-time All-Star.

Have you been on Reddit the last 2 weeks? I am willing to bet no other player has had the criticism Jokic has had since the playoffs started

Its a simple criteria yet theres still pushback whenever you bring this up. Basketball has two sides.. if someone can be called the overall best on the planet based on how well they play one side then idk… wouldnt Rudy and Draymond have a valid claim at the title since they have godly defense but shit on offense?

What does that mean for players that are pretty great on both sides of the ball like Wemby and SGA?

Do you think Nash was the best player in the world when he won his MVPs?

Even when he won back to back I would have taken Giannis over him. They had extremely similar offensive output and Giannis was among the best defensive players in the league while Jokic was among the worst at his position.

MVPs are narrative based and do not equal “best player in the league” (else MJ and LeBron would both have a lot more of them).

Depending on where Jokic goes from here, Giannis might be looked more favorably upon and that those MVPs were from voter fatigue for him. Or that his teams weren’t good enough.

No one will doubt him as the most offensively gifted and the guy who breaks defenses the most. But best player will be a debate.

Usually the best players affect the game in other ways when they dont have the touch that night. Thats just not Jokic (in part because hes never cold, till this series).

This isnt the thread for it. If you point out that he was likely the best in the world in 2023 they will just say that the ring doesn’t count because the 50 win teams lost early.

Guy below you is saying hes like Steve Nash (who I love) but there are some obvious differences

Most valuable sure but best on the planet is different. And by my criteria that factors in offense and defense. I seriously dont understand how some of yall cant understand this

Full credit

Their percentage on wide open shots was also down massively.

Shaq was David Robinson compared to Jokic defensively

Shaq was definitely a menace defensively, especially in that era where threes weren’t prevalent.

He was less mobile in LA later on than he was in Orlando but the guy was a primetime rim protector, his biggest rival was his own motor, on the odd occasion he put 100% effort in he was impassable defensively.

Obviously he’d likely struggle in the pace and space era due to his relative lack of mobility but he’d likely be built totally different if he was a current player.

Lakers Shaq was at least a respectable interior defender, which was more than enough

You basically cannot win-Unless the time that Jokic literally did win of course

While his defense was atrocious this playoffs, Jokic did prove that he can be a part of atleast an average defense. Now for team building, that does make him harder to build around which is a good point

You would have an argument even last year. With Nuggets giving OKC such a strong series with pretty spotty injury record - I would give benefit of the doubt to the “incumbent”, but I would say it is also reasonable to say Shai took the title last season.

Youre not wrong. Time will be the deciding factor. There was a time where folks were calling Steph the GOAT but that’s died down and most rankings have him properly placed (tho ill die on a hill that, like SGA, hes a 2guard not a point guard).

Jokic will have his “greatest peaks” belt but it will be hard to justify him as the best on the planet. Best offensive player without a doubt. But best overall? Giannis will probably have a better case.

I mean when you have Steven Adams - you lean into him boxing out and letting Westbrook start a fastbreak. That was one of the only reliable forms of offense that the 17 Thunder had till PG came around.

Every team w Adams lets him box out 2-3 guy to let the rest of the team gang rebound. The WB gets boards comment is more a Steven Adams stat than WB.

But the key difference here is nobody is arguing Russ is nobody is saying Russ is a top10 player ever who can do no wrong.

If anything - literally everybody critiques for his playstyle (rightfully so)

I actually do think it’s fair to say teams structure their rebounding for Jokic and Westbrook to get a defensive rebound to facilitate a quicker offense with an all time passer and fast break player.

I also think it’s fair to say Jokic and Westbrook are massively overrated defenders.

Zack had to go against bill simmons when simmons asked him if deep down in his hearth he knew jokic was still thw best

There is levels to dickriding

It is possible, and the answer is Thinking Basketball.

If Giannis had a healthy first round series like this, Ben Taylor would have excluded him from his All-NBA teams.

straight up forgot the og white european who led his team to the title in 2011 against prime lebron

Yeah because he at least tries and isn’t a center

Nothing to be inferior about Westbrook with better PR

I don’t think the guy is a mod anymore, but during the peak Embiid slander years when he and Jokic were competing for MVPs it was a mod that was posting a chunk of the Embiid slander posts. A lot of Jokic slander posts back then also conveniently were getting removed.

I agree that Denver’s bad perimeter defense was a huge problem, but Jokic exacerbated that problem. If Jokic was good at protecting the paint the Timberwolves wouldn’t have driven as relentlessly as they did. Jokic often does not even attempt to contest shots. Even if Jokic had a fantastic perimeter defense around him, *he* wouldn’t add positive value because of how bad his is in the paint and how little effort he puts out.

Denver lost for a few difference reasons, but we have to stop deflecting from Jokic. AG was hurt. Murray was atrocious. Their role players largely didn’t step up. Their perimeter defense is bad.

But Jokic also put forth pathetic effort defensively and even at his best he is just an objectively bad paint protector and that’s a huge flaw in the game if your a center.

Don’t bother. None of these people watch the game or understand nba defenses anyways. It’s time to circlejerk