DyingSunSeverian

2336 | 8 hours ago

It’s always been moronic, the dude made the Finals 8 times consecutively, and some of those were serious carry jobs, like hello

It’s also a bit like mocking Meryl Streep for having a 3-18 record at the Oscars. Some people would find it more notable that she has a whopping 21 nominations.

tejanoazul | Rockets

1063 | 8 hours ago

People really think losing in the finals is just as bad or worse than losing earlier or not making the playoffs at all

KingDave46 | Cavaliers

602 | 8 hours ago

This is 100% it

The fact that people give other stars credit for what amounts to just losing earlier is the most consistent stupidity across sports.

Look at the Cavs team he took to the finals to get stomped by the Spurs. They had no right to be within a thousand miles of winning that.

He carried as much as was humanly possible then gets shit on for not beating the last team on his own too

Curious-Look6042

173 | 8 hours ago

And the last teams have been two of the most noteworthy nba dynasties of all time

PGA1493 | Cavaliers

40 | 6 hours ago

For real. The only true “indefensible” mark against him is that Mavs series, but that Mavs team beat some incredible teams to get to the finals as well

horsehasnoname | Lakers

73 | 8 hours ago

Its the “winning is all that matters” mentality, which players themselves keep perpetuating. Its not a gradient to them, it losing in the Finals is the same as losing in the 1st round, which is moronic. That’s why I love Jokic’s and Wemby’s mentality that winning at basketball is not all there is.

Due_Concentrate_7773

51 | 8 hours ago

The crazy thing is that I think many of them see losing in the Finals as somehow worse than losing in the first round, instead of just the same.

Leavingtheecstasy | Thunder

32 | 7 hours ago

I mean. Its better to lose in the finals, just maybe hurts the players mental more. But instead of getting knocked out immediately, you beat 3 of the best teams in the nba to get there before losing.

xxc6h1206xx

18 | 6 hours ago

I’ve coached hoops for 20 years. It hurts WAY more to be THIS close to winning it all than it does to be bounced early.

pretenderist | BOS

15 | 6 hours ago

We see those articles all the time during the Olympics about how Bronze medalists are way happier than Silver medalists.

Connect-Day-6881

13 | 7 hours ago

Because no one’s bringing it up on their record, if we started saying players records as how many times they made it to each of the different rounds it’d be a huge fraud check to a lot of big names.

mucho-gusto | CLE

35 | 8 hours ago

Literally turned the pistons series by playing inhuman

https://youtu.be/LpAJYrY-lJ8

Swaggylicious | Lakers

22 | 7 hours ago

I mean look at people praising Jimmy Butler carrying the Heat to the finals.

Not to take anything away from him, he was great but Lebron was on another level especially doing it 8 times consecutively while completely dominating the East with the way he did.

Competitive_Soft6547 | Spurs

166 | 8 hours ago

Because 6-0 looks so nice and clean but also MJ got owned by the pistons for 3 straight playoffs and he never beat Larry Bird either, going 0-6 vs him in the playoffs

antonimbus | Knicks

38 | 8 hours ago

Let’s ask Tracey McGrady how he feels about this.

vitalbumhole | Warriors

32 | 8 hours ago

I think people point to a losing record in the finals as the differentiating factor between him and MJ. 6-0 in finals with 6 finals mvps in 2 three-peats is mythological shit so it’s hard to overcome

mucho-gusto | CLE

60 | 8 hours ago

Why not Bill Russell then

DisMeDog

39 | 8 hours ago

Because many people who saw Bill Russell play are dead.

Leavingtheecstasy | Thunder

15 | 7 hours ago

So in 10-15 years lebron is the goat for sure!

EightBlocked | NBA

17 | 7 hours ago

because its okay to disrespect bill russell and say his accomplishments dont mean anything but you cant say anything about the amazing 90s era even though the same criticisms apply

SilverMagnum | Celtics

10 | 8 hours ago

I’m certainly ready to have that conversation!

awesomesauce88

28 | 8 hours ago

Again, it makes no logical sense, because you are rewarding MJ for simply losing earlier when he did lose.

Band_ | NBA

19 | 8 hours ago

Championships are a team accomplishment, not individual.

Robinsonirish | Finland

67 | 8 hours ago

Sidenote - John Williams has 5 wins, and 54(FIFTYFOUR) Oscar nominations. Pretty absurd, John Williams is the LeBron James of cinematic music, and LeBron James is the John Williams of going to the finals.

farmoosesomething

10 | 7 hours ago

Didn’t be beat himself?

Robinsonirish | Finland

26 | 7 hours ago

Haters will say he lost to himself.

1978 Oscars, Star Wars beat Close Encounters of the Third Kind for best original score.

ElBeno77 | Timberwolves

53 | 8 hours ago

This really just took Meryl down a peg for me

mani9612 | IND

29 | 7 hours ago

LeMeryl

truthlesshunter

11 | 7 hours ago

LeSophie’s Choice

Inevitable_Escape689 | Spurs

11 | 6 hours ago

My opinion of Meryl Streep as an actress just fucking plummeted!!

ElBeno77 | Timberwolves

5 | 6 hours ago

Meryl also did all of this in the load management era, does it even count?

VicktoriousVICK | NBA

50 | 8 hours ago

Another huge difference is Tennis. That is truly a 1v1 sport, where accolades/wins define you…but even there, making a GRAND FINAL in a Major is a HUGE deal. For some greats, if they made a ton and never won a single GF, that can be a knock in all-time ranking, but majority of the time, just making the finals (and not winning) is still a boost in your career ranking.

real_but_incognito | Kings

30 | 8 hours ago

If Meryl Streep’s movies had Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Drew Gooden as her supporting cast.

You can’t win with these cats.

mr_chub | Wizards

22 | 8 hours ago

The thing is it was only supposed to be a differentiator between him and Jordan when we’re talking about the literal GOAT. Of course people, on both sides, extrapolate it to just be a slight in general.

Idc about anyone’s opinions about what’s better anymore or the “playoff exits vs finals exits” argument im just saying what the origin was.

Dallas2houston120

13 | 8 hours ago

It might have originally been used for that but I’ve seen people use the argument against him and Kobe and even Curry to a smaller extent.

WhiteHeterosexualGuy | Hawks

10 | 8 hours ago

It’s not a differentiator though. It’s just poor framing. The correct framing is Lebron has 10 conference titles and 4 NBA championships versus MJ that has 6 conference titles and 6 NBA championships

Neto34 | Clippers

11 | 8 hours ago

For the same reason no one talks about Jerry west finals record.

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

10 | 8 hours ago

It’s always been moronic, the dude made the Finals 8 times consecutively,

Pointing to LeBron’s finals record is a reasonable response to people bragging about his 8 consecutive finals.

He made the finals 8 consecutive years because the East was terrible. The finals record shows that he would have lost earlier in the playoffs some of those years if he had been in the West.

But – and this is the important part – this is a dumb argument that people only get into because of ring culture.

When evaluating LeBron, it shouldn’t matter whether he lost to the Warriors in the second round or in the finals. Look at how he actually played (which is excellent, obviously), instead of getting into stupid fights about adjustments to team success.

Th1Warrior

18 | 8 hours ago

The finals record shows that he would have lost earlier in the playoffs some of those years if he had been in the West.

Does it? Or would he have elevated an already strong team in the West to championship contenders?

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

21 | 8 hours ago

LeBron faced literally one All NBA 1st Team player (Rose in 2011) in 24 East playoff series in his 8 consecutive trips to the finals.

It’s dumb to argue that losing in the finals is worse than losing before the finals.

But it’s also dumb to pretend that the conference were equal during LeBron’s run.

(credit u/qfuw)

Regular Season head-to-head record (All West teams VS All East teams)

Season	West	East	Total	West %	East %

17–18	237	213	450	52.7%	47.3%
16–17	246	204	450	54.7%	45.3%
15–16	232	218	450	51.6%	48.4%
14–15	263	187	450	58.4%	41.6%
13–14	284	166	450	63.1%	36.9%
12–13	262	188	450	58.2%	41.8%
11–12	156	114	270	57.8%	42.2%
10–11	261	189	450	58.0%	42.0%
09–10	246	204	450	54.7%	45.3%
08–09	219	231	450	48.7%	51.3%
07–08	258	192	450	57.3%	42.7%
06–07	257	193	450	57.1%	42.9%
05–06	252	198	450	56.0%	44.0%
04–05	256	194	450	56.9%	43.1%
03–04	266	154	420	63.3%	36.7%

Regular Season head-to-head record (West top 4 seeds VS East top 4 seeds)

Season	West	East	Total	West %	East %

17–18	18	14	32	56.3%	43.8%
16–17	23	9	32	71.9%	28.1%
15–16	20	12	32	62.5%	37.5%
14–15	14	18	32	43.8%	56.3%
13–14	18	14	32	56.3%	43.8%
12–13	17	15	32	53.1%	46.9%
11–12	12	9	21	57.1%	42.9%
10–11	15	17	32	46.9%	53.1%
09–10	16	16	32	50.0%	50.0%
08–09	14	18	32	43.8%	56.3%
07–08	15	17	32	46.9%	53.1%
06–07	24	8	32	75.0%	25.0%
05–06	18	14	32	56.3%	43.8%
04–05	21	11	32	65.6%	34.4%
03–04	24	8	32	75.0%	25.0%

All-NBA Team Selections

Season	1st Team - West	1st Team - East	Overall - West	Overall - East
17–18	4	1	10	5
16–17	4	1	9	6
15–16	4	1	11	4
14–15	4	1	12	3
13–14	3	2	11	4
12–13	4	1	11	4
11–12	3	2	9	6
10–11	2	3	9	6
09–10	2	3	10	5
08–09	2	3	11	4
07–08	2	3	11	4
06–07	5	0	9	6
05–06	3	2	8	7
04–05	3	2	9	6
03–04	4	1	8	7

All-NBA Team Selections

Season	1st Team - West	1st Team - East	Overall - West	Overall - East
17–18	4	1	10	5
16–17	4	1	9	6
15–16	4	1	11	4
14–15	4	1	12	3
13–14	3	2	11	4
12–13	4	1	11	4
11–12	3	2	9	6
10–11	2	3	9	6
09–10	2	3	10	5
08–09	2	3	11	4
07–08	2	3	11	4
06–07	5	0	9	6
05–06	3	2	8	7
04–05	3	2	9	6
03–04	4	1	8	7

ChiKing | Bulls

11 | 8 hours ago

I think the argument is if he had the same supporting cast in the West, they get stomped in the 1st round or dont even make the playoffs.

VariousLawyerings | Wizards

10 | 6 hours ago

We’re talking about teams he already lost to IRL, if he plays in the West he simply faces them earlier and doesn’t get the Finals appearance.

grnlntrn1969

5 | 8 hours ago

That’s not what that shows at all. How do you come up with that logic? He took a team of scrubs to the finals on sheer will but that doesn’t count because “the east was weak!” Has anyone in fucking history told this same logic to Tom Brady? Hey Tom, how come you lost those SBs? Montana never lost one. See how fucking dumb that sounds.

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

18 | 8 hours ago

That’s not what that shows at all. How do you come up with that logic? He took a team of scrubs to the finals on sheer will but that doesn’t count because “the east was weak!”

Taking a team of scrubs to the finals in a weak conference is very obviously better than losing in the early rounds in a weak conference. And LeBron was amazing in those playoffs.

But it’s idiotic to pretend that the 2018 Cavs would have gone to the finals if they were in the West.

Has anyone in fucking history told this same logic to Tom Brady? Hey Tom, how come you lost those SBs? Montana never lost one. See how fucking dumb that sounds.

It’s dumb to argue that losing in the finals is worse than losing earlier.

It’s also dumb to argue that reaching the finals 8 consecutive years has nothing to do with him playing in the weak East.

essosinola | Raptors

17 | 7 hours ago

You’re so carefully trying to show that you understand the point that reaching the finals itself is an impressive feat, but that that still needs to be looked at within the context of how it occured, and they are not having it lol

ElectricGhostMan

8 | 8 hours ago

people think “lebron and friends” rhetoric only started this year but it was literally lebron and friends for at least half of his career at this point.

11zies | Knicks

9 | 8 hours ago

LeStreep

Conn3er | Spurs

1397 | 8 hours ago

The only finals loss he has that’s really inexcusable is to dirk. The other losses came against two of the best dynasties the sport has ever seen. Can’t really blame him for that.

swizznastic | Spurs

371 | 7 hours ago

It is inexcusable, but if you look at it as a journey, i think it was a necessary start for his next decade of dominance. Players are people, they choke they have low moments, all of that. He not only came back, but he showed growth as a leader. You don’t always get that part.

whatdoinamemyself | Heat

269 | 6 hours ago

This is something that seems to be lacking 99% of the time I see this discussion. This series is what created LeBron. He wasn’t a complete player yet. The Mavs shut him down because they had the right roster and coaching to abuse his complete lack of a jumpshot (and the Heat’s general lack of shooting). This is what led to the Lebron we saw in Game 6 vs the Celtics in 2012. He massively improved his jumpshot, his post game, and very clearly studied on how to run a half-court offense.

As an aside, i hate this topic. People just try to say Lebron sucked and never give the Mavs their due. They were fucking incredible that whole playoffs run.

Jsmooove86 | Lakers

52 | 6 hours ago

Just wanted to give flowers, the same Mavs team swept the former defending champs led by Kobe & Gasol.

Wise-Nature8326

14 | 4 hours ago

And beat OKC with KD russ and harden, and a very good portland. That mavs team was great

WhoopingKing | MIA

50 | 6 hours ago

it may be the series which leveled up lebron, but there isnt any gameplan or any team in nba history capable enough to hold lebron james to 8 points in a finals game. lebron not having a reliable jump shot was something tons of other rivals tried to exploit before the mavs

it was a game the heat lost by a single possession, while leading the series 2-1. the same dude who two years before averaged 38/8/8 against prime dwight howard over six games. if lebron doesnt have the worst game of his entire career the heat go up 3-1,

whatdoinamemyself | Heat

19 | 5 hours ago

lebron not having a reliable jump shot was something tons of other rivals tried to exploit before the mavs

Those other rivals didn’t have 3 all time great defenders in Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd. And a very great coaching staff in Rick Carlisle and Dwane Casey. This is very likely the best defense Lebron had gone up against at this point in time.

08 Magic’s defense was JUST Dwight Howard. Which is still incredible but they didn’t have the perimeter defense as well as defensive bbiq that this Mavs team had.

harbleu

21 | 6 hours ago

That game 6 vs celtics was still the greatest individual performance I’ve seen in my time watching NBA, probably followed by the 2018 finals game 1 (j.r. smith game)

Air2Jordan3 | Cavaliers

8 | 5 hours ago

2018 is so close to the greatest individual performance ever in the NBA; imagine if JR passes to LeBron and makes a buzzer beating 3, which finishes him with 50 (or maybe 51) points.

CubanLinxRae | ORL

11 | 6 hours ago

The way I slice it is he and Jordan were the same age when they won their first championships LeBron just had his growing pains in the finals while Jordan’s was in the ECF. Kobe had some great underperformances in the playoffs but they either came early or he had Shaq to pick up the slack aside from 04. All of these were redeemed eventually

realrafaelcruz | Pacers

9 | 4 hours ago

My take is it’s fair to critique Lebron for his losses, but for whatever reason people overlook MJs when they shouldn’t. He never beat Larry Bird and lost to the Pistons also. Also he lost to Shaq. This narrative that he never lost in the finals is irrelevant because imo overcoming Larry Bird and facing the Showtime Lakers in their prime are absolutely hurdles he failed to overcome.

He was only able to be dominant after the legendary teams he should have overcame fell off. As far as I’m concerned, his victory over the Showtime Lakers is the equivalent of beating the 2022 Warriors instead of the 2017 Warriors. Not fully legitimate.

And hey, I’m sympathetic to arguments that I’m being too harsh, but then imo you also have to apply that to Lebron. Which they don’t. There’s a filter of cleaning everything up about MJ’s legacy to make him great while there’s an opposite filter of dirtying everything Lebron accomplished.

beyphy | Clippers

77 | 7 hours ago

I think MJ learned earlier in his career that what he was bringing wasn’t enough. And he knew that because he kept losing in the playoffs. LeBron didn’t learn that later in his career until 2011 when he lost to the Mavs in the finals. Where it’s unfair is that no one holds MJs early career losses against him whereas everyone holds LeBron’s loss to Mavs/Dirk against him.

blehbe

30 | 6 hours ago

With all due respect, the difference is that LeBron was a sizable favorite against the Mavs in 2011 and got outscored for that Finals series by a 33-year-old bench player (Jason Terry) on a worse shooting percentage. Jordan’s early career losses, he was the underdog every time AND he individually more than pulled his weight. That’s why LeBron gets penalized more for the Mavs series.

beyphy | Clippers

28 | 6 hours ago

I disagree. The difference is mostly in the narrative.

MJ did lose. People just like to pretend that he didn’t. And when he did lose, there is always some convenient excuse to explain away the loss:

Of course MJ lost, he went up against dynasty teams and wasn’t in his prime yet
Of course MJ lost, he just came back from baseball and his body wasn’t optimized for basketball
Of course MJ lost, he was old and no one expected him to do anything at this point in his career

etc.

jaimakimnoah

22 | 6 hours ago

LeBron gets the same ‘he lost to dynasty teams’ excuse against SA and Golden State.

He doesn’t get it against Dallas because they were not dynastic team, and also for his front running that year to kickstart his time with Miami.

LeBron also gets praise for being older in the way he is also shielded from not winning; he’s 40 plus.

I agree people are overly critical of him in some ways but these things do also show up in the ways his legacy is defended as well.

PotatoHat1

7 | 5 hours ago

He doesn’t get the same lost to dynasty excuse. Only from some serious nba fans. All the “4-6” people are not giving him that excuse.

blehbe

17 | 6 hours ago

MJ went 24-0 in his career against teams seeded equal to or lower than his in the playoffs. LeBron on the other hand has gotten upset in multiple playoff series with home court advantage, such as the Mavs series. That matters, because you can’t use the argument that LeBron ONLY lost because he had the worse team which also gets peddled by LeBron backers.

If you want to argue that it’s unfair to use MJ’s 0 Finals losses against LBJ’s 6 Finals losses, I completely agree with you. I also agree that MJ supporters use that way too much, and it’s a dumb argument.

However, you are not going to find a single playoff series (not just Finals series, playoff series) where MJ underperformed anything like LBJ did in the Mavs series. Or where MJ was THE #1 reason why his team couldn’t win a championship.

Air2Jordan3 | Cavaliers

12 | 5 hours ago

LeBron on the other hand has gotten upset in multiple playoff series with home court advantage

Not disagreeing with your overall take, just curious if my memory is right. Other than the Mavs series, I think the only other two are Orlando in 2009 but he averaged like 40/8/8 and showed up every game.

The only other one that comes to mind is 2021 but that was the season after the bubble where the previous final 4 teams all lost early in the playoffs; this was post Solomon Hill injury and I’m pretty sure AD was injured too. So maybe an upset going into the series but not once you consider all the injuries.

FinancialScratch2427

6 | 5 hours ago

Why don’t you go the other way, too?

How many stronger teams did MJ beat in the playoffs, vs. Lebron?

young_frogger | NBA

9 | 5 hours ago

I don’t know if it’s fair to say Jordan “pulled his weight” against the Pistons those years in the 80’s that he lost. He scored less points on significantly worse efficiency against them. He played better in the 1990 series when he took them to 7, and of course, those pistons teams geared their defence specifically towards stopping him, but Lebron experienced the same thing when he was carrying teams.

None of his series were as egregious as Lebron’s 2011 performance, and his numbers would still be considered fantastic for any other player, but he was certainly “held in check” by his incredibly high standards.

Something else that isn’t really brought up enough, MJ had a very subpar (again, for his standards) series against the Sonics, but the Bulls were still able to win. By contrast, Lebron has played great in pretty much every finals outside of 2011.

fatkamp | Warriors

55 | 7 hours ago

Nothing was funnier than realizing that it actually helps to have an all time regular season team + Durant

The whole year in 2017 was that Lebron and Kyrie had the “mental” edge over the Warriors, and the finals would be an all timer. Then, it turned out that the Warriors were just a class above and everyone just acknowledges that it was “unfair”

Albreitx | Spain

373 | 7 hours ago

My memory is more like 2017 was a funeral in the making. Everybody knew the Warriors were gonna beat the Cavs. 73-9 team that went to a game 7 in the finals adding KD for Harrison Barnes? Yeah there was no question about it lol

Miirzys | Thunder

162 | 7 hours ago

yeah, that’s more so exactly how it was lmao. Christmas gave a bit of hope but everyone still knew it was inevitable.

NYK2Barca

6 | 6 hours ago

I remember everyone was hanging on to the “it takes at least 2 seasons for a super team to mesh” like the heatles and that’s why the Cavs were favorite. And I might be remembering incorrectly but the Cavs had a super easy track to th ECF while I think the warriors got dragged to a 7 game series with Houston? Or was that the year after?

Miirzys | Thunder

6 | 6 hours ago

Actually, im starting to remember that narrative. People were also saying GSW were worse because they didn’t beat their 73-9 record, right? Lmao. And I believe that was the year after, not sure though.

ViewFromHalf-WayDown | Knicks

71 | 7 hours ago

They a warriors fan, can’t blame em for making it sound better than it was

DoctorMansteel | Celtics

25 | 7 hours ago

I have trouble remembering what I was doing at 5 years old too..

My__Reddit__Account | Lakers

54 | 7 hours ago

The only season that I’ve ever felt was over before it started.

Vanish_7 | Cavaliers

48 | 7 hours ago

We Clevelanders had like two weeks of happiness in 2016 before Golden State signed KD, and we realized there was not going to be any real kind of a “best two out of three” rematch. The 2017 season ended on July 4th 2016 and EVERYONE knew it.

Fuck the salary cap spike, fuck the Warriors, and fuck KD.

gbdarknight77 | Lakers

40 | 7 hours ago

Shitty thing is that 2017 Cavs team was better than the 2016 team and it still didn’t matter.

Vanish_7 | Cavaliers

24 | 7 hours ago

Absolutely. I think 2017 is my favorite NBA team ever, and probably LeBron’s best-ever team.

NickDerpkins | Magic

7 | 6 hours ago

I’d think that the2012 heat team that won are probably his best team he has ever been on. I’d take that big three over Bron, Kyrie, and Love any day. Plus they defeated an absolute monster in OKC with KD, Westbrook, Ibaka (who was an all defense player at the time and a highly underappreciated piece of that team imo) in 5 games.

EDIT: wait fuck, maybe 2013 when they added Ray Allen? Old AF by then, but felt like he really complimented the team in a meaningful way.

IAmNotKevinDurant_35 | GSW

36 | 7 hours ago

2018 was way worse. At least in 2017 Kyrie was viewed at or near Steph’s level by a lot of folks. Coming off that finals and the christmas day game where he outplayed Steph

Spiritual-Sympathy98

9 | 6 hours ago

I agree after that year it looked like they were barely even celebrating the title. They were smiling but it was more like ok that was expected, no shit. Me and my buddies were laughing about how lax the championship celebration seemed.

Akipella | Warriors

13 | 7 hours ago

Yeah the only talk I saw about the Cavs being able to win was either by injuries to us or it was kinda just like in a coping way like “maybe they still stand a chance…” I remember heading into the series before Game 1 some people hoped they could still maybe make something happen.

By that Game 3 the entire NBA fanbase was in total meltdown mode because no one could predict KD would leave after 2019 and that we’d only end up winning 2 in a row, people thought we were just gonna win 5 years in a row or some shit

Bignova | CHA

169 | 7 hours ago

Can’t believe its been so long since 2017 I’m seeing people rewriting narratives and history in real time. Everyone and their mama, cousin, dog, babysitter, and teacher knew who was winning the 2017 finals as early as July 4th, 2016. And be glad cause if the Warriors did anything but steamroll to a finals victory it would’ve been a bigger disappointment than 2016.

Ok-Responsibility942 | Timberwolves

65 | 7 hours ago

Yea this is hilarious, the season was over as soon as KD signed.

But one of their 9 losses was to Shabazz Muhammed and a horrible Wolves team, so that nullifies their championship that season anyway.

Thehealeroftri | UTA

9 | 7 hours ago

I would sign the petition to transfer the title to the wolves for that year.

Miirzys | Thunder

37 | 7 hours ago

Thank you; we can’t let this be forgotten lol

Duskuser | Lakers

32 | 7 hours ago

Yeah anyone trying to pretend like KD moving to GS wasn’t a massive deal and a huge outrage at the time is just crazy lol

Miirzys | Thunder

15 | 7 hours ago

HUGE outrage. cough cough, im a Thunder fan.

AhmedF | Raptors

14 | 7 hours ago

Yeah OP is either 12 or an AI bot gone super wrong.

LakerBlue | Lakers

7 | 7 hours ago

I legitimately stopped watching basketball as much while KD was with them because it felt so inevitable that they’d win the Finals each year. And they did except for 2019 when KD only played 12min. (No offense Raptor fans)

justintensity | Lakers

6 | 7 hours ago

Not entirely true! KD misse the last month with a really bad injury (I remember tweeting the irony because the injury was announced on 3-1)

random_throws_stuff

66 | 7 hours ago

literally no one thought the cavs had a mental edge over a 73 win team adding the 2nd/3rd best player in the league.

they were favorites in 2016 over the cavs even without KD and lost a nail biting 7 game series. barring injury, the 2017 championship winner was a foregone conclusion the day KD signed.

greenteasamurai

17 | 6 hours ago

16-1 in the playoffs is still the most absurd stat I’ve ever seen.

MutaliskGluon

7 | 5 hours ago

And the 1 game they loss was probably the most 1 sided reffed game in NBA history. No one cares or talks about it because the clear and obvious rigging of the game made it a 4-1 finals instead of a 4-0.

From my memory, the warriors big 4 all had 2 fouls called on them in the 1st quarter, there was a couple BS calls calling turnovers, and the Cavs had a 10+ FT advantage by the end of the 1st.

jdjdthrow

51 | 7 hours ago

The whole year in 2017 was that Lebron and Kyrie had the “mental” edge over the Warriors, and the finals would be an all timer. Then, it turned out that the Warriors were just a class above

The things Warriors fans tell themselves, lol.

Yeah, you guys were the underdogs, and nobody believed in you due to Lebron and Kyrie.

No. Everyone knew damn well it was a super team and that it was bullshit that KD joined 73-9 team. Only reason watched Finals is to hope for an improbable upset.

HickfrmFrenchLick33

41 | 7 hours ago

lmao this is delusional. Never heard anyone say the Cavs had an edge over the Warriors that year. The question was whether they would win in 4 or 5.

yuhanz | PHO

35 | 7 hours ago

Is the mental edge in the room with us?

Namath96 | Hornets

24 | 7 hours ago

This is aggressively not true lol. The warriors were heavy favorites and all the “experts” took them

shadowcman | Cavaliers

16 | 7 hours ago

I had to check your flair, and sure enough, a Warriors fan wrote this garbage. The second the ink dried on Durant’s contract the fate of the Finals was determined, don’t pretend otherwise.

dnl12__

7 | 7 hours ago

It definitely was not…..

Everyone knew adding kd was a instant chip

AngryOcelot

7 | 7 hours ago

The Warriors with Durant opened the season with better title odds than the rest of the NBA combined. It was always going to be a slaughter.

InSearchOfGoodPun | Heat

7 | 7 hours ago

This is the most bullshit rewriting of history I’ve ever seen in this subreddit, and that’s saying a lot. I’d say it’s pure rage bait, but this nonsense actually has upvotes, so maybe some braindead Warriors fans have deluded themselves into believing this.

joshuamillertime | Spurs

20 | 6 hours ago

2014 Spurs are still treated as the standard for team basketball. Meanwhile KD Warriors are the most dominant team ever. Really hard to dock LeBron legacy points for those losses

Alarmed-Candidate422

1353 | 8 hours ago

I agree on the last point. It’s funny because LeBron owns nearly all the youngest and oldest records after playing 23 seasons, but now we are forgetting just how good he was early, and how dominant he was, and focusing on his legacy and total career work. But he’s right. It may have taken him 23 seasons to get 50k points but he was the fastest to every 10k lololol.

ElectricGhostMan

457 | 8 hours ago

It was especially funny a few years ago when they’d show somebody reaching a record and lebron was the previous holder and still ahead as the next milestone or showed up multiple times in the same list.

Booties-On-My-Mind

266 | 7 hours ago

youd see someone get their first 30/10/10 in the playoffs then you see lebron at the top of the graphic with 40+

ElectricGhostMan

165 | 7 hours ago

it’d like be 1 wilt, 2 Lebron, 3 Jordan, 4-5 Lebron, 6 the guy being commended, 7 Lebron, 8 Hakeem, 9-10 Lebron. It had really gotten super comical at some point but I havent seen it in a while.

Haunting-Soup2086

50 | 5 hours ago

My fav are the ones where it’s 1-4 as LeBron, maybe some random all time player at 5, 6-9 as LeBron and then like 10th is a 5 way tie between multiple people.

ThisIsMyFifthAccount | NYK

19 | 5 hours ago

LeTurtles all the way down

Oohhdatskam

5 | 4 hours ago

I think one this week was players leading both teams in scoring by Shai. It was like 4 other players with it happening in 1 series, then there was Lebron with like 5 separate series of it happening.

satiricalned

17 | 4 hours ago

There was just a graphic from the OKC PHX series where sga led in scoring of all players in all games in the series. Other names were Curry, Jordan, Wilkins, etc. Then James 5x

Leavingtheecstasy | Thunder

87 | 7 hours ago

Hes modern day wilt and Russell

Leavingtheecstasy | Thunder

200 | 7 hours ago

Didn’t he drag the cavs to the finals at like 24 years old? People would lose their minds if that happened nowadays.

Careless-Journalist7 | Wizards

266 | 6 hours ago

He was 22, absolutely nobody had them going that far. And he took out a Pistons team that had made like 5 straight ECFs

bballi | Raptors

119 | 6 hours ago

Didn’t he score 32 straight points or something nuts Edit: it was the final 25 points to win in double ot in game 5. Wow

CubanLinxRae | ORL

135 | 6 hours ago

25 straight points and 29 of their last 30 at 22 years old against the a top 5 defense in the league with two all defense players. He averaged 39-8-8 and hit a crazy game winner against Orlando in the ECF at 24 years old. He was younger than how old SGA, Ant Edwards, luka, and tatum are today for all of that didn’t even hit his prime

ILikeElephants4

66 | 6 hours ago

He made every single point in overtime. It actually is a wild game to go back and watch. He was the whole team

Air2Jordan3 | Cavaliers

44 | 5 hours ago

Not just one OT either, it was double overtime. Iirc, only one shot he made in his 29 of the last 30 points came off an assist (Z was in the post and hit a cutting Bron). Everything else was him dribbling up the floor and either beating his guy, making a jump shot, and free throws.

CubanLinxRae | ORL

40 | 5 hours ago

He was really unstoppable and when people say lebron didn’t have the killer instinct is really silly when he was doing that at 22

veksone | Knicks

11 | 4 hours ago

I will never understand how he had a triple double and 2 game winners in his very first playoff series and people STILL claimed he wasn’t clutch.

CollectionHairy3766

20 | 5 hours ago

Everyone talks about his epic games against the Celtics. But that game against the pistons is one of the greatest single handed games I’ve ever seen played

OCHL092018

33 | 6 hours ago

Watch the end of that game. He was unreal. He was hitting everything, from everywhere

TwoProper4220

24 | 6 hours ago

it was 25 straight and 29 of the last 30 points for the team. he was still called not clutch early in his career with this kind of performance

TJHookor | Pacers

24 | 5 hours ago

To this day that’s still the most dominant quarter of ball I have ever seen. He made the best defense in the league look like kids trying to stop him.

CubanLinxRae | ORL

18 | 6 hours ago

It was 6 straight ECFs. More than the warriors have done consecutively

Alarmed-Candidate422

48 | 7 hours ago

Yeah it was a hard carry, regular season showed that and then the series vs the pistons cemented it.

There have been young stars to lead the finals but it’s very rare it’s a one man show. (Obviously wade did it in 2006, aged 24, KD was 23 for his first finals trip, but most people would say Westbrook also had a huge part, also aged 23).

SkepticalGerm

46 | 6 hours ago

KD was the stat leader for that team but having Westbrook and Harden on your team is not a carry job. You can take him out of that conversation

Alarmed-Candidate422

17 | 6 hours ago

I know, I said that

GoblinEngineer | Vancouver Grizzlies

29 | 6 hours ago

Wade wasn’t a 1 man show - while Shaq was obviously shit there, he played much better in other preceding rounds. Also the had Zo, Antoine walker, UD. Wade had help, he had veterans. Lebron didn’t even have Mo Williams in 07.

floatinround22 | Hawks

28 | 6 hours ago

He was 22, the same age Wemby is now

O2XXX

38 | 6 hours ago

And as good as Wemby is, he has a solid team with some depth. They obviously aren’t as good without him, but they also aren’t push overs either. Can’t say the same for that Cavs team (and maybe the 2018 team too, but that was more injuries)

Revolutionary_Dog798

10 | 6 hours ago

lol what holy shit lmao bron was ridiculous

Gagabubu777

23 | 6 hours ago

22

katsutama

41 | 8 hours ago

But he wasnt fastest to reach 10k tho? Fastest was Wilt, who reached it in 236 games, 2nd was MJ in 303 games and Lebron was 10th in 368 games. He was youngest.

Lebron wasnt fastest to any K points until 35k where race was between 3 players including him. 30k and below he usually was 10th fastest or slight higher or below. And fastest guys were Wilt then MJ.

Alarmed-Candidate422

41 | 8 hours ago

I guess it just depends on how you define fastest. Typically NBA shows the stats with age. College development and all that jazz.

jdjdthrow

47 | 7 hours ago

In that case, should be “youngest” rather than “fastest”.

AntiCovid

26 | 6 hours ago

Fastest from birth

ShowBobsPlzz | Spurs

9 | 6 hours ago

Exactly. Because not everyone comes to the nba out of high school.

FreshDiamond | Lakers

9 | 6 hours ago

No it doesn’t depend on anything, saying fastest gives it a different implication obviously.

YoungEmperorLBJ | Lakers

25 | 6 hours ago

In another thread a commenter mentioned they don’t remember an iconic clutch performance from Bron other than the Block. And I’m like you don’t remember 2007 ECSF Game 5? 25 straight points in the fourth quarter and double overtime? 29 of 30 of the Cavs final points? Talking about killer instinct, Bron murdered the best defense (along with the Spurs) of the 00s.

the_shek

7 | 4 hours ago

to be fair that person you messaged might not have even been alive in 2007 while commenting in 2026 and they’re old enough to drive for a few years now

BBDBVAPA

22 | 6 hours ago

Playing so long that people forget how good you used to be while you’re actually still playing is wild.

Giving 40 minutes at 22, 8, 7 in the playoffs carrying a squad missing two stars.

FreshDiamond | Lakers

15 | 6 hours ago

Lebron has been the youngest not the fastest, that’s not the same thing.

fantasnick | Knicks

567 | 8 hours ago

“Is it because it’s me”

Yeah, sums up 95% of any manufactured criticism for LeBron

It’s crazy how people are still hating - LeBron was the most hype sports prospect by an exponential degree compared to anyone I’ve watched in the last 25 years and he still lived up to that hype and did more. 3-4 separate HoF careers in one and still can be a #1 player against a top 4 seed team in the playoffs and win games for the team at 41.

ffball | NBA

176 | 8 hours ago

Plus not only is he arguably the best player in history. Hes just a good dude and has always been a fantastic father and representative for the league.

If he is the player you hate, I think that says more about the person you are than him.

jdjdthrow

34 | 7 hours ago

If he is the player you hate, I think that says more about the person you are than him.

It’s sports. Sports hate (separate and distinct from irl hate) is half the fun.

Normal-Tear864

11 | 7 hours ago

As many people mistake shit talk for personal hatred as the people who mean it

Cantebury | Wizards

96 | 7 hours ago

This will always be insane to me. The “next Jordan” actually became the next Jordan. And they saw it when he was like 16 years old

frankoceanthecreator

28 | 6 hours ago

Have you seen his high school highlights? Gotta be one of the easiest first pick decisions ever lol. Still insane that he actually lived up to it tho

CarmeloSmokesWeed | Knicks

12 | 4 hours ago

No devastating injuries, no life-altering off-court drama, married to HS sweetheart, healthy kids. It’s honestly insane how he’s made it through all of the fame (more or less) completely unscathed.

scotchdawook

7 | 6 hours ago

I think “The Decision” permanently tarnished LeBron’s image in the minds of many casual basketball fans at that time.

NewChemistry5210 | Lakers

256 | 8 hours ago

Other than his 2011 Finals performance against Dallas, he has always met or exceeded expectations in the Finals for me. And it’s really the only blemish on his 23-year-old career in my books.

The Finals criticism never made sense to me.

montro08

68 | 7 hours ago

I will always look at 2011 as his biggest blemish but one thing that I don’t think gets brought up enough is that he had no god damn idea what his role or identity was on that Heat team during that 1st year. You could see it in real time during that finals, that he was deferring to Wade. It was like he was hesitant on when to take over. It took until that summer for Wade to come up to him and hand him the keys and the rest was history. I’m trying not to take away from the fact that yes, he played bad but to think that he wasn’t hesitant cause he didn’t want to overstep is just being obtuse. If Wade had came to him before the start of the season and said you are the best player in the world, take us to the promised land… I think that whole year goes differently.

ActuallyKaylee | Raptors

10 | 5 hours ago

LeBron’s post game was very weak relative to the rest of his game before 2012. That summer he made sure he always had a way to go get a bucket and it literally saved the heat against Boston.

BlackJediSword | Lakers

6 | 5 hours ago

D-Wade has said as such. Him and Bosh expected Bron to take over as leader

Initial_Stretch_3674

6 | 6 hours ago

Of course it made sense, because he was exemplary in every other way. On and off the court.

He’s set to a higher standard, so that’s the criticism you go with.

Longjumping_Idea5261

115 | 8 hours ago

Because to the NBA fans, not making the Finals is better than 4-6. When Jimmy Butler took his weak teams to the Finals twice and went 0-2, he became the hero. But when LeBron did that twice (2007 and 2018) and lost, they just became portions of 4-6. Crazy stuff.

LatterLaw8105

28 | 8 hours ago

I’d add 2015 too

dukecityvigilante | Bulls

15 | 7 hours ago

He had Kyrie to help him get to the Finals that year at least, and Love in the regular season. Of course he was great and did a lot, but ‘07 and ‘18 were just him carrying a bunch of scrubs over the more talented and higher-seeded team in the East.

Gagabubu777

13 | 6 hours ago

Kyrie only played a few games. He was hobbled and why he got injured in the finals

Actually-Yo-Momma

23 | 5 hours ago

People are just dum dums. Omg the East was so easy and open. OK how come no other single player made it to consecutive finals in the East since literally Michael Jordan?

yesacabbagez | NBA

85 | 8 hours ago

People will always find a reason to hate on someone if they want. Lost a lot in the finals is a step above guy who lost all the time in the finals, which is above guy that never made the finals which is above guy who can’t get past the first round.

These are team games and a team carries a guy when he is too successful, but then if they aren’t successful it’s because he couldn’t carry his team.

The bitching is whatever someone wants it to be at the time.

Available_Story6774 | West

23 | 8 hours ago

Also the only Finals where I’d say LeBron was the reason they lost and didn’t perform up to standard is 2011, outside of that he’s been great.

emoney_gotnomoney | Spurs

11 | 6 hours ago

In my opinion, Lebron was the best player across both teams / had the best performance between both teams in every Finals series he lost, with the obvious exception of 2011 and maybe 2007.

There were 5 Finals matchups where Lebron’s team was clearly the inferior team (2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018), and he ended up actually winning one of them.

Diamond4Hands4Ever | Warriors

76 | 8 hours ago

That was always weird to me since it’s better to lose in the Finals than to lose early. Using his Finals record never made sense, as he should be rewarded for going further in the playoffs. It should be judged more like overall titles versus non titles (any loss in the playoffs), if you want to go there, but even then there are a lot of other things to consider like LeBron obviously is still playing at an older age, so he’s not the same as when he was younger.

I also want to say that when LeBron said MJ only looked to score, that also isn’t completely true. He definitely was way more to do that than LeBron, but MJ was an underrated passer. He was just put in more spots to score, but he’s one of the best passing SGs ever.

unwisest_sage | Magic

35 | 8 hours ago

I got down downvotes for posting this exact sentiment like 8 years ago in this sub.

This isn’t a realistic scale but think about playoff outcomes like gpa

Miss playoff-0 points

First round 1 point

Lose in finals - 3

Win title- 4

Then average all of those each year together. If LeBron is going to get dinged for finals losses then those seasons should also be stacked against years where MJ didn’t even make the finals.

If you want to compare who has been most rings then fine, but that finals win % is immaterial imo. The only column that matters is the w column.

waskittenman

58 | 8 hours ago

Crazy we get retrospective 41 year old LeBron talking about his career during his early 30s while he’s up 3-1 on a team in the first round as the best player on his team. ¹⁄₁ we never seeing his like again

darwinevo | Lakers

9 | 6 hours ago

10 years the NBA revolved around LeBron in the Finals.

spankmeimnaughty | NBA

58 | 8 hours ago

You can sports hate people if you want, that’s fine. In the words of Charles Barkley, “I don’t hate anyone for more than 48 minutes, barring overtime”. If LeBron is playing against your team you cheer against LeBron.

But all he’s done is be a serial title contender, win 4 of them, and set the scoring title. The constant attempts to discredit him have never made any sense and make even less now given the massive legacy he’s secured. I never did and never will understand people using the finals record against him like making the finals every year is somehow a bad thing.

luffy565

35 | 8 hours ago

“Yeah, but I am also fastest to 1,000 [points]. Fastest to 2,000. Fastest to 5,000. Fastest to 10,000. So when I started realizing it was just a knock on me, I started to appreciate it a little bit more.”

That is a dope line, got hyped.

katsutama

13 | 8 hours ago

If it was true tho, but its not. He is the youngest, but not fastest.

Frozen_Bagel | Thunder

10 | 7 hours ago

Speed running being born to getting 10k points

Hornsdowngunsup | Spurs

27 | 8 hours ago

I’ve only seen a few teams make it to the finals with one star. Allen iverson, and Luka. LeBron did it multiple times.

mucho-gusto | CLE

12 | 6 hours ago

I love him but he did it once, unless you’re arguing Love was washed in 18. Also, how does Kyrie not count for Luka?

SandGlokt | Knicks

28 | 8 hours ago

He never compared himself to MJ? Fuck outta here with that nonsense

Smooth770

19 | 7 hours ago

“I never compared myself to MJ…” followed by comparing their games 😂

CreativeGeniusPRBKR

14 | 7 hours ago

On his game 7 block and 3-1 comback: “That right there made me the greatest player of all time.” And also the whole “chasing the ghost in Chicago.”

But no he never compares himself to MJ. I think at this point the hate comes not from statistics but from his social perception lol.

SandGlokt | Knicks

10 | 6 hours ago

He is an expert at moving the goal posts and saying whatever fits his current narrative. Somehow he goes from not 1, not 2, not 3 to saying that the ring culture is wrong, and now all of a sudden he’s never compared himself to MJ. A great player, but hard to take him seriously.

d0pp31g4ng3r

15 | 6 hours ago

LeBron calls himself “goat” and “the greatest of all time.” What other all time great has done that?

choyMj

20 | 8 hours ago

Jordan never had to make up excuses

BeeWeird7940 | Heat

15 | 8 hours ago

I always wondered what his record would be if in 2016 he played 2 to 3 games for each NBA team, just rotating around the league to all 30 teams in 82 games. Would he go 55-27 or better? I think he probably would.

TangerineStrong3781 | Lakers

15 | 8 hours ago

People love moving the goalposts for LeBron.

Look at what Stephen A said today that MJ’s Wizards years don’t count. Meanwhile LeBron still gets scrutinised in year 23.

StrokingCats

15 | 8 hours ago

Lmao it clearly bothers him

Anthillito

12 | 8 hours ago

Statistically speaking, if you’re against LeBron in the finals. You’re gonna win a ring.

FoesiesBtw | Cavaliers

12 | 7 hours ago

Y’all are still arguing mj vs lbj in the comments and missed the entire point of this. Different eras different styles. And do you seriously think LeBron and MJ hate each other? Look at his words. “ I hope I made him proud.” LeBron is one of the biggest MJ fans in the world. If y’all knew anything about him

locust098 | Lakers Bandwagon

8 | 6 hours ago

Bron wears 23 bc of MJ and they think he hates him LOL

443Waves

9 | 8 hours ago

It still bothers him. He thinks by becoming all time points leader will exonerate him of that.

Proper_Glass8308

11 | 8 hours ago

All of this and the comments are missing the point entirely

GOAT is subjective to the individual. It’s absolutely amazing that LeBron made 8 finals in a row, nobody can knock him for that

What makes MJ the GOAT was his inevitability, you knew he was going to pull through, you knew he was going to win. Not just in a “he’s good and I hope he wins” way, but in a literal “he’s better than everybody else and there’s nobody that can stop him”

Steve Kerr said it best in an interview just yesterday, said that he’s never felt the same way on the court than he did with Michael.

LeBron has the longevity, he has the accolades, he has the stats and the playing with his son. He will be a lot of people’s GOAT, and that’s great.

But for somebody who grew up watching MJ, LeBron has NEVER had the same FEELING watching them. And that’s what makes MJ the GOAT for so many. LeBron fans want to get angry because you bring up “feelings” when it comes to the nuance of who is greatest, but when you watch both players, it’s just not the same. It’s really hard to explain in text form

starkfr | West

11 | 7 hours ago

LeBron is really the only all‑time great who’s openly called himself the “greatest of all time.” Everyone else at that level, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, always pointed to someone else before themselves. It clearly still sticks with him, even though he has the best longevity in NBA history and holds most of the major records, which is plenty to be proud of. Most players still lean toward MJ as the GOAT. Fans can choose whoever they grew up loving, but when you ask the actual pros, the answer is usually the same.

GeneralOwn5333

8 | 8 hours ago

LBJ you forgot to admit that you jumped teams, built super teams and was taught how to win.

That’s inexcusable at the GOAT level discussion.

HS941317

10 | 8 hours ago

Lmaooo it still bothers him, any criticism of his he still speaks up on.

launchliftoff459

8 | 8 hours ago

Its because: “not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6” you fuckin arrogant ass bitch. While running to play with Wade and Bosh.

this_my_sportsreddit | Warriors

9 | 7 hours ago

This entire comment section is full of people who have an entirely different perspective on finals record depending on what player is being spoken about lol.

johnwicksuglybro | Supersonics

9 | 7 hours ago

I guess LeBron listens to nick wright for arguments. I don’t think it’s better to lose earlier. I think it’s better to win. Idc if he came in 2nd a bunch of times. He’s ⁴⁄₂₁. MJ is ⁶⁄₁₅.

And obviously that’s not the only thing that goes into the GOAT debate, there are a dozen other factors. But if we’re talking about winning then that’s what it comes down to for me.

As far as these quotes, it’s funny he says he doesn’t compare them and then goes on to compare them. “I never compared myself to MJ” then “there are a lot of things where I would say my game is a lot different and a little better than his”.

He’s corny and he’s a liar.

ShowBobsPlzz | Spurs

5 | 8 hours ago

He knows he will never catch Jordan’s 6 titles so he’s trying to lobby for “but look how many times i got to the finals”

wxl200

7 | 7 hours ago

Sounds like it’s still bothering him

Sliceofmayo

7 | 8 hours ago

The way people talk about his finals record makes it seem like its a 1v1 league, and apparently winning a conference finals is worse than missing the playoffs

opanm | Warriors Bandwagon

6 | 8 hours ago

Half the orgs never been to the finals, I wouldn’t worry lol

Rudd-Threetrees

10 | 7 hours ago

Any man who must say “I am the king” is no true king.

ExternalJumpy6264

5 | 7 hours ago

“I never compared myself to MJ. My highly paid team of agents and publicists took care of that.”

LeBron admits that people criticizing his Finals record used to bother him: “I am pissed off that I didn’t have a better winning percentage individually in the Finals, but for people to try to turn it into a negative, it doesn’t bother me like it did when I was younger.”

Regular Season head-to-head record (All West teams VS All East teams)

Regular Season head-to-head record (West top 4 seeds VS East top 4 seeds)

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