[Zach Lowe] “I think at the end of his (Nikola Jokić) career, if not already, he’s gonna be statistically and just like eye test, better than Larry Bird, better than Magic Johnson… 1 ring in Denver is worth more than like a Lakers ring or whatever.”
Zach has never once been normal about Jokic.
Zach: one ring in Denver is worth more than like 5 lakers rings or 3 Celtics rings or creating the most iconic rivalry in nba history or whatever
He specifically said “more worth then one ring”.
Ring culture is actually pretty annoying and its not only a thing in the NBA, in the end it boils down to Rings, cuz you can literally compare two numbers below 10 and claim that x is better then y.
We obviously know that Bill Russel is the goat, cuz he has 11 of them.
Rangs erneh
GOOGLE ME!
Erneh lemme tell you some’
> We obviously know that Bill Russel is the goat, cuz he has 11 of them
Unironically this, Bill is probably the most underrated player of all time because he isn’t in most people’s top 5’s but should be
Just an entirely different world. There was 8-14 teams during his career depending on the year.
So you’re saying the league is much more watered down than in the past? /s
There is just no comparison between the NBA when Russel played and the modern game. Even post merger to his era is so wildly different
Both things are true. It just requires a distinction between greatest and best, which few ever make when arguing about this topic.
Not really even when arguing solely based on accomplishments and not skill you still need to take the difficulty of the accomplishment into consideration.
A championship over 9 other teams in an era without salary caps is not nearly as difficult to obtain as a championship in a 30 team league with modern cap rules and aprons.
Is it really a 30 team league when the wizards participate?
You think that team league didnt have a wizards of there own.
He played against the most dominate player to ever play the game and it isn’t close.
Wilt would be a superstar today.
Wilt would be a superstar and all the talking heads would be slamming him because he can’t get past Russell in the playoffs.
Yeah this is a hill I will die on. It’s tough to say he’s the goat, but people really underestimate or hand wave his success due to era. I don’t think people realize that he didn’t just do this in the NBA with a “stacked” team either.
He also led USF to back to back NCAA championships while in college. And keep in mind USF wasn’t a particularly great college for basketball. In fact, Russell only went there cause it was the only school to offer him a scholarship lol
The more you dig the more respect you have to have for Bill Russell.
Celtics had a losing record the year before him, the year after him, and during games he missed during his career.
22-0 in winner takes all games across his basketball career (college, Olympics, NBA).
In terms of available awards and championships, he left less on the table than anyone else in any major sport. What more could he have done?!
And don’t forget the only reason he doesn’t have like 10 DPOY awards is because it didn’t exist yet.
and a Bajillion blocks and steals (which they’re actually digging up right now, Basketball Reference just got the Block Totals for Wilt’s FINAL season and they’re insane)…
the celtics were 6th of 8 in drtg the year before russell, 1st every year but one (2nd place in his penultimate year) during his career, and fell to 8th of 14 when he retired
Bill is top 4 at worst IMO.
Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Russell in some order.
There’s a reason why the Finals MVP trophy is named after him. He’s top-4 all-time in my opinion
“player coach” 👴🏿
Magic is awesome, but those teams were loaded. I think that’s the point. Every generation, the Lakers reload. People just choose to go there. That team was garbage, struggling, then LeBron just chooses to show up and another title.
That makes it more impressive to win in non destination places. I don’t know if that gets you higher on some hall of fame tier list, but the point isn’t insane.
yeah, if OKC gets the number 1 pick it’ll be the 80’s lakers again
they got an MVP and champion after Kareem asked for a trade, flounder for a bit, pick magic with #1, win a chip immediately, due to trades they get ANOTHER #1 two seasons removed from being champs after winning 54 games and pick Worthy, all while playing on a weak conference
no wonder they reached 9 finals in 11 years
No salary cap either so they could just afford a better team too.
I don’t agree with Zach but I think people do just see 5 rings when they think of Magic and nothing else. People are bringing up weak playoff runs but the Western conference Magic played in was the worst of all time. He played so many low seeds in the conference finals and the one contender in the Rockets got derailed by injury and drug issues. Also let’s be real everything surrounding the 88 ring was pretty suspect. I don’t agree with the take but I also don’t think you need a certain amount of rings to be considered better, like everyone agrees LeBron and Kareem are better
There were also 7-8 fewer teams in the late 70s and early 80s so talent was spread less thin even without the European influx
Sure, but the Lakers had loaded teams in the 60’s, then the 70’s, also the 80’s, took a break until the late 90’s, then reloaded with Shaq and Kobe in 00’s, then again with Kobe at the end of the decade. Then they fall into a hole and suddenly LeBron shows up, then they get gifted Luka…
Whatever the rules and the state of the league, Lakers find a way. Denver needed this miracle occurance of a chubby second round pick turning into the best player in the league.
Most teams that won in the 80s were loaded. Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Philly.
I kind of get his point even if it’s clunky. The Lakers and Celtics are historically great teams that collectively have lots of rings (you lucky bastards).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but was this Denver’s first and only ring? At the least they have very few. It means a lot to the city and is a unique accolade for the player.
It’s like if you compared LeBron’s rings in Miami and LA to his Cleveland ring. I don’t think many people would argue that his Cavs run to the title wasn’t more impressive and important to his legacy and to the city.
My dad told me in the 90s he believed he would die without seeing a Nuggets title, he was in his 30s.
It means a lot.
I’ve been a Nuggets fan since birth in the 80s. I was convinced we would never see a ring. Honestly, at the time of all the super team discussions in the early aughts and Cleveland snagging their first in 2016, I though there might be a chance for Denver if we could pull in some big names for big $. Luckily, we have a home grown star. And that 1 Denver ring means so much, because it may never happen again.
First and only ring for Denver.
What? It’s easier to win a ring with 5 or 6 Hall of Famers on your team and a Hall of Fame coach than it is in the era of parity?
The 86 Celtics literally started 5 Hall of Famers in their prime + had Hall of Famer Bill Walton as a 6th man (who won 6MOY).
Aren’t they HoF because they won tho? Anyone that wins that much is going to be a hall of fame then that’s somehow used a negative against them.
If jokic won 3-4 with the same squad then they’d all be in the HoF. Then 40 years from now people will say jokic wasn’t that good bc he was on a team of hall of famers.
None of them at the Ringer have. That Pina guy especially
Zach Lowe in comparison to Simmons and Pina is a Jokic hater
That Piña guy is a god awful writer. The standards at the Ringer must have drastically fallen if he’s employed there.
He loves the Celtics, that’s all Bill needs.
he’s horrendous in podcasts too. last time he was a guest on Lowe’s show out of nowhere he went on an 8 minute tangent about why Jokic should be the MVP. the convo wasn’t about Denver or even awards voting. like we get it man jesus
Simmons and Lowe invent new ways to gargle wemby and jokic’s balls every week.
and the net rating darlings, your 9th seed Hornets
The ringer has been setting the narrative to call Jokic the best player of all time for years
Pina’s votes are probably worse than Perkins’
The ringer is just hilarious about Jokic, esp considering how they’ll hate on others with either great stats, one way play or rings.
They will both criticize others, contextualize “weak” playoff runs but bend over backwards for Jokic.
It’s almost funny to see how much they panic with each nuggets playoff flame out because it’s not working according to their script
Bill made an argument for Jokic for MVP a couple years ago that focused primarily on his triple doubles and how it impacted the team winning and it drove me fucking NUTS cause he discounted Westbrook’s MVP for that exact reason despite him having like a 75% win rate in games where he had a triple double that year
Simmons and Lowe when players get triple doubles
Its crazy actually. Magic and bird saved the nba. That has to count for something not even counting that jokic only has 1 chip.
That’s outside the scope of basketball and the discussion itself. Allen Iverson had an enormous cultural impact—and a huge personal impact on me as a fan—but I can separate that from ranking him alongside someone like Tim Duncan, where he doesn’t belong.
The Ringer people in general are very weird about Jokic. They talk about him like he’s on the same level of LeBron and MJ.
Jokic is at his peak right now and he might not even be the best player in the league with Shai and Wemby right there, but i’m supposed to believe he’s one of the 5 best players ever or whatever? Come no
It’s crazy they talk like that about a guy who will likely finish first or second in MVP voting for six straight years and who arguably has the greatest offensive peak in NBA history.
Have yall not heard the way they’ve all glazed the fuck outta Shai this year? They don’t just do it for Jokic.
For someone who is pretty rational about everything else he’s got this really weird thing for Jokic that I don’t understand.
Is it weird that he’s been the best player this decade?
It’s simply true…
Remember he had an entire podcast basically crying over Jamal Murray tearing his acl and the real reason he was upset was bc of how it affected Jokic’s legacy?
Jokic is going to be an all timer but the ring comment is cope
He said this at a Denver live show.
Thats all this is.
He was pandering to the crowd throughout that episode, like a low rent opening act comedian at a political rally. Hard to listen to.
almost all live pods are not listenable considering the level of pandering they do
Yeah… I skip all the live pods. The audio always sucks and the content is always worse.
Jokics one ring in Denver just matters more.
But not Shai’s ring in OKC. Or Giannis’s ring in Milwaukee. Why? Idk bro I just feel like it
It’s getting difficult for me to not call this a ‘Great White Hope’ thing
Europeans do not usually qualify for “Great White Hope” status.
Application waivers can happen but more easily from the UK/Ireland, the further east you go from there the less likely it is your waiver gets accepted
There hasn’t been an American great white hope in a while. They are desperate and are gonna take anyone they can get.
Funnily enough, the american part of that phrase has pretty much been ignored in the hopes of finding a great white hope overseas. Like you say, they’ll take anyone they can get.
McGregor and Fury are just two examples that come to mind. Certain groups of people latched onto them when the two aren’t even american. It’s just about them being white.
The comment still holds true for those players. Milwaukee and OKC are small markets and those rings are more important to those cities. Dirk’s one ring is more valuable because of the teams he tore through en route to it.
Giannis’s ring is a perfect parallel but weirdly OKC has a massive list of great players that have been there in their primes
Just because he didn’t specifically say that doesn’t mean he doesn’t also feel that way. I’d bet he’d easily extend that logic to those rings as well. Like, youve created a hypothetical argument he doesn’t even hold or mention to downplay his argument.
not even just rings … man’s only gotten out of the 2nd round twice in his 11 year career
Interesting, do you think it means more for the Giannis legacy case that he did it in Milwaukee?
I kinda do
It 1000% means more. Even considering the context of the weird injury riddled post-bubble season. Giannis dragging that team to a championship is just as impressive as Jokic or the 22 warriors
It’s funny how Lowe the other podcasters never seem to bring this up. Yet they always have time to talk about Jokić and his exploits
Giannis and Jokic both have legacy defining rings.
He’s also had nowhere near the help that guys like Magic or Bird had, even when his squads have been healthy which they weren’t for multiple runs.
magic and bird did have better squads but they had a lot more accolades to show for it too. Jokic hasn’t overachieved or anything - he’s had a decent supporting cast around him for a lot of his career (albeit he has been unlucky with their health).
Yes I agree. And that’s kinda what Zach is saying - Magic and Bird had more help so won more rings but if you watch Jokic play he’s in the same caliber of player as they are .
Yeah if Jokic had teammates on the level of Kareem and James Worthy I have a feeling he’d have a bunch of rings too lol
1 ring where he played the 8 seed Heat and had a relatively easier run through the West. A lot of team teams led by guys who have never won a ring would have won if they played that field.
A ring is a ring but to try and say it means MORE than all of Birds and Magics is absolutely ridiculous. Sure Bird had hall of Famers with him but guess what? He had to beat Magic + Hall of Famers.
It’s completely true, though. Denver is a small market with no championship culture and questionable front office leadership.
Jokic is the entire driving force around every success in Denver. And Denver didn’t even intentionally get him. They just lucked into him as a throwaway second round pick. They stumbled over their own feet and accidentally ended up with an all-time player to drag them to a championship.
Juxtapose that to the BS he said about Giannis like “He only got one ring in Milwaukee. Where did that put him historically?”
Keep the same standard mate. Don’t change it every single time.
On top of that Giannis’ closeout game 6 in Phoenix was on of the all time great finals performances
Historically insane, both statistically and eye test, the CHASEDOWN BLOCKS 😮💨
He guarded both men in a pick and roll and then blocked a dunk attempt at the rim. Still one of the most insane plays I have ever seen.
Yes man. 50 points and several blocks. Sick
If Giannis was named Antentokounmpic, he’d be rated higher by Lowe. I love Zach Lowe, but the guy have a Slavic bias as bad as Bill’s Celtic bias.
Makes sense when you learn his wife is Croatian and he spends most of his summers in the Balkans lol
Croatians just love their Serbians, don’t they!
The American married to a Croatian probably wouldn’t fully take on all the historical baggage of the area, tbf.
Greece is part of the Balkans. :)
Is Greece considered culturally Balkan, though? They were never part of Yugoslavia, are different ethnically and lingually, and have their own separate history and culture.
Deciding which country is and isn’t Balkan is a huge meme. This video summarizes the situation well lol https://youtu.be/r_5Slnkzekc?si=w1wfmNvcl1axldgw
Northern Greece is similar to Balkans, both culturally and area wise. Southern Greece is not, it is closer to Mediterranean Europe. Source I am Greek.
That man married a Slav and his whole personality changed.
They shift the narrative for Jokic all of the time. Remember how important defense was considered for a center specifically before Jokic entered the scene
Nate Duncan from the dunc’d on podcast is the only pod I hear who actually dings Jokic for his defense. His offense clearly outweighs his limitations there but I do think it’s forgotten
The ringer guys are really just not objective about Jokic and as they say it enough I see it bleed into the avg r/nba user.
You’ll have these ring arguments and they also try to justify how he’s “actually an above avg defender”. As his playoff resume gets weaker they’ll keep doing more of this stuff
Racial bias is a mf
I don’t disagree on the surface that winning a ring with some franchises is more impressive than others but lets also not pretend they played the 73-9 Warriors during the playoff run either.
Yeah I can see this being said about dirks 2011 ring but 2023 wasn’t anything crazy of a playoff run
Dirk humbled a future king so that definitely counts
Also swept Kobe’s Lakers who won the previous year
previous two years*
It was the most insane beatdown. I forgot if it was Game 2 or Game 3, but it felt like the Mavericks shot 100 3s and made em at 100% rate
That tiny puerto rican absolutely COOKED that lakers team. I still remember that fuck all this bullshit intentional foul from Bynum on a Barea layup attempt mid air
Jj barea got a ring before LeBron 👑
wasn’t that run one of the hardest road to a chip backed by stats lol
You don’t even need to use stats.
He went through the Westbrook/KD/Harden Thunder,
The Pau/Kobe/MWP Lakers
And the Bron/Wade/Bosh heat.
Dirk and that mavs team were true giant killers.
The players Dirk beat that run had combined 8 League MVPs 12 rings 9 Finals MVPs
They literally played two 8 seeds and one 7seed lmao I don’t have time to do a deep dive but I’d think no other title team has had an easier title run just based on opponent seeding.
Last year was the first time Jokic defeated a 50-win team in the playoffs and it was the 50-32 LA Clippers in 7 games.
That stat isn’t really fair when 2 years of his prime were shortened seasons. Like the 2020 Clippers were 49-23. They get to 56 or so in a full year. Also not his fault when 50 win teams lose in earlier rounds.
Also let’s not pretend like them sweeping the lakers when they did wasn’t impressive when it was like 50⁄50 in terms of who people were picking. A lot of people were picking the suns the round before that too. So in thag title run he beat Ant, KD, Lebron/AD, and Jimmy in the finals. Downplaying that run because the lakers and suns didn’t have 50 wins is just disingenuous
He beat the teams that beat the 50 win teams. If the 50 win teams lose to 40 win teams, maybe it needs to be evaluated how much that really means. He’s an NBA champion
and they didn’t just squeak out a ring. it was complete domination. 16-4
From 2020 onward, when Jokic’s prime started, he went to WCF and lost to the newly constructed LBJ AD Lakers with excellent supporting cast that went to win it all.
Then, 2021 he played with Facu Campazzo and Austin Reaves as his starting guards. Went to the 2nd round, got swept against Phoenix who went to the finals.
In 2022 he was without his two max players, Murray and MPJ, went out to the eventual champions.
In 2023, a title.
In 2024, Calvin Booth masterclass where his only two options from the bench were Reggie Jackson and Justin Holiday (out of the NBA next season). Still, you could call this season a bad one, should have went to the WCF at least.
In 2025, cold war between Booth and Malone exploded with both getting fired. Took the eventual champions to 7 games despite having MPJ with one arm throughout the series and AG who destroyed his hamstring and is perpetually injured ever since.
So, there’s context to everything. This year, he should win it all, and you could call it the worst year of his career if he doesn’t make it to the WCF at least.
There’s always context when you cherrypick the points to favor your argument. Like I could say the same exact thing about Giannis’s career as well, because every year he lost in the playoffs since 2021 there was always an excuse that was out of his control. The fact is, neither Jokic nor Giannis have an impressive playoff resume compared to the all-time greats. I think Giannis might’ve only beaten one 50-win team as well, just like Jokic. But the fact that their playoff resumes are similar and only Jokic is the one being compared to MJ/Magic/Bird despite having a fraction of their playoff success is insane. Besides LeBron and Steph, there’s no active player in the NBA with a career even comparable to those guys.
I’m pretty sure Jokic hasn’t played on the same team as Austin Reeves
The title is misrepresenting Zach’s own thoughts. Zach was actually making the argument that Jokic needs another ring to be considered on the same level as magic, bird, etc. The comment about a ring in Denver meaning more came from someone else. Zach was just relying that comment, it wasn’t his own opinion.
73-9 warriors? Nah man how about the legendary 40 win Miami heat
The comment about Magic is baffling.
Before Magic joined the lakers, they had 1 single championship since moving to LA.
The lakers are who they are today because of Magic.
Kareem*
Magic had 3 MVPs and 3 Finals MVPs on the Lakers
Kareem had 3 MVPs and 1 Finals MVP
Magic took one of Kareem’s FMVP’s lol. The first one was given to Magic because he had a great close out game and Kareem was out even though Kareem dominated the series prior to then.
If you wanna know why so many people push back on Jokics greatness, it’s comments like this that annoy people
tbh most of the 3x mvps have 2+ rings
Or more overall playoff success. Comments like this are just dumb and do nothing really but Zach Lowe is kinda like that now
That’s what happens when you get the big check. You gotta put asses in seats, and folks pay for drama. I’m sure Zach would rather be writing about the Marc Gasol all-stars.
He’s also one of two multi time MVP winners in NBA History that doesn’t have a 60+ win season to his name. The other is Bob Pettit lol.
Man I get that rings culture is stupid if you’re saying Charles Barkley is worse than Rasheed Wallace, or whatever. But can’t we acknowledge that at the tier of absolute greatness we’re discussing, once you’re in that club how many times you’ve completed the hardest, most valuable achievement in the game might be valid for comparing these tiny margins?
It is because people see the disingenuous side of this argument. Just because he likes Jokic (which is fine), they try to tarnish other legends’ achievements, or make new narratives, or move the goalposts.
this sub man…
Watchuu want me to do?? suck him off??
White bois and their great white hope
Maybe
1 ring in Denver is not the same as 3 rings in Boston or 5 rings in LA
he specifically compared 1 ring to another and not to 5 or 3…
I’m all for Jokic being an all-time player (top 9-15 probably), but this take is quite homer take (he was in Denver so it makes sense). Magic and Bird were on another level for longer as well. If Jokic somehow wins 2 more rings, yeah then I can have a discussion about ranking him higher than 9.
It’s surprisingly easy to look over Jokic giving the Nuggets their 1 championship if you’ve been watching the NBA closely over the whole period (and hell, they weren’t a terrible franchise per se throughout the 00s too) but I think it does make his resumé look very impressive and even if his career were to flame out it looks very impressive in the decade context.
Not saying the 23 Nuggets were bad at all but it’s still a ring with no all-star teammates and no huge underpays on the roster at all. Just a mid-50 win team that could butterknife thru any defense because of him
Idk how to end this comment. I don’t actually care about relative ring value. I just think people are gonna look back very fondly on Jokic’s career even if ‘1 ring’ ends up looking mid compared to Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron
The Jokic glazing is getting ridiculous. The number of excuses this guy is given for not having more team success is crazy.
The Jokic propaganda has to stop. Shit is getting outta hand
His stats and awards are impressive, but there is no way in hell that he should be placed ahead of Magic and Bird with only 1 ring. Has he even beaten a 50 win team in the playoffs yet?
He beat the Harden and Kawhi clippers in 7 last year
As a fan of a small market team, the sliding scale of ring value based on market size and historic team success is silly.
A ring is a ring is a ring.
So you think kd ring in 2018 is as valuable as hakeems?
It would be a 10 day old account
I think Jokic is the best in the world and has been for a while, but saying a ring is worth more than another because it happens to be a small market team is laughable, especially when the opponents in that specific run was arguably one of the weaker runs in recent history. If it was like a Dirk type run, sure. But that has nothing to do with small market, big market. It’s about doing it with a weaker supporting cast against some serious, great teams and players.
This year he’ll have to beat Wolves, Spurs, OKC, and maybe Boston or whoever makes it, now that’s a ring worth more than 1 ring
Not sure about this take. Jokic is an all-timer, to be clear, but there are quite a number of fellas that have climbed steeper mountains than he has with equivalent or worse supporting casts, and I’m not so sure we can use “Denver” as a caveat to push him up the rankings. That being said, so much of this ranking stuff is nonsense, and it IS clear that Jokic is going to go down as one of the greats; where he fits in on someone’s subjective generation-defying list doesn’t really bother me, but let’s not grasp to make a case for something that doesn’t really matter.
Idk man, Denver’s altitude is quite high, I’d be surprised if anyone has climbed any steeper mountain
I’m curious who you have as guys that climbed steeper mountains with equal or worse players
One of the dumb parts of ring culture is that, to avoid it leading to places you don’t want to go, you have to conduct some weird gymnastics to give different rings different values for different players.
Maybe just look at what actual players have actually contributed instead of starting with team success and clumsily trying to back your way into player impact.
Going to Ringer accelerated Zach Lowe’s washed trajectory like crazy
Nah it was working at ESPN that changed him. Did so many pods on clickbait topics like the Giannis situation this year
Maybe dickriding jokic is contractual at the ringer.
They published an article of playoffs predictions and for title winner they went denver [4], okc [1], boston [1]
Mind you this is in spite of always talking about denver as a underdog after their losses and how jokic cannot be asked more with their roster
With that mentality ; the 5 rings Duncan got in San Antonio are equal to 25 lakers rings ?
I don’t understand this thinking at all. Magic and Bird were dynasties, Jokic isn’t
Hell Hakeem has 2 rings and is arguably the greatest 2 way big man in the sport. Carried a Rockets franchise that isn’t a “big market” either
When you start to get into that Top 10 discussion you gotta pass a lot of people. Is he better than Hakeem? Better than Kobe? Better than Steph?
people are really threatened by the idea that Jokic will end his career with a relative lack of winning compared to his contemporaries. Seeing people move the goalposts to “championships don’t matter” in real time is really something
It’s funny because back when LeBron was coming up it was very much “championships DO matter”
Because LeBron is held to otherworldly standards that others flatly aren’t
If you look at every player in the top 10
They all played in a minimum of 5-6 NBA Finals and won at least 3 championships. This is the minimum baseline to get into the discussion.
Bill Russell: 12 finals and 11 championships
Kareem: 10 finals and 6 championships
Jordan: 6 finals and 6 championships
Magic: 9 finals and 5 championships
Kobe: 7 finals and 5 championships
Duncan: 6 finals and 5 championships
Lebron: 10 finals and 4 championships
Steph: 6 finals and 4 championships
Shaq: 6 finals and 4 championships
Bird: 5 finals and 3 championships
Honorable mentions to guys in the 4 finals and 2 championships or less club: Hakeem, Wilt, KD etc.
Guys like Jokic and Giannis need to have a sustained run of making multiple championships just to crack the top 15 discussion IMO.
I think it’s all contextual and not just about the team it was for but who you play against an who you have as teammates
If you use the context of who Jokic played against he had one of the easiest runs of all time to a ring facing awful awful teams and the worst offenses in NBA history (as a bad defender that he is a massive massive boost)
There’s a reason that he hasn’t been able to replicate it and hasn’t even gotten close, most of the series he plays in go to a lot of games due to their awful awful defense
This is Denver defense ranked in playoffs with Jokic:
12th out of 16
13th out of 16
16th out of 16
3rd out of 16 (Champions ship run, faced offenses ranked 25th, 23rd, 14th, 20th)
8th out of 16
11th out of 16
This stat at the end of your comment is really a great pull. The context of that championship run juxtaposed against the rest is really fascinating and probably illustrative of why they haven’t won more.
Jokic is awesome, one of my favorite players to watch, but his fans will never admit his lack of team success has a lot to do with him being a defensive liability as a center. It’s one of the bigger reasons why his team has never won 60 games, and why he has only been out of the 2nd round twice. It’s not the only reason, but it’s definitely not nothing.
This is a great comment, and something I always point out too. Idk why ppl completely ignore that Jokic being a bad defender at the center position (the key) is genuinely a hamstring for building an elite team around him. It is legitimately difficult to build an elite defense around a bad defensive center (which isn’t the case for any other position).
A reflection of this is that Jokic’s team success has simply not been up to par with other all time greats. He’s never led his team to a 60 win season – which is a pretty glaring gap. He’s also only made it past the WCF once. And his championship run was one of the easiest ever in terms of opponent strength.
It goes without saying that Jokic is an all-time great… and one of the greatest offensive players ever. But his defense is genuinely a problem – and idk why ppl ignore that so often. And unfortunately, it’s legitimately impactful because he’s a center… other greats like Magic/Curry have been mediocre defenders, but as guards, their defensive shortcomings have a much lower impact than poor center defense.
And then people will turn around and act like Jokic has no help when they specifically need an Aaron Gordon type, for all his other limitations, because he covers for Jokic’s defensive flaws.
Curious but how many times has Jokic made it past the 2nd rd?
How much talent has Embiid played with? It’s also held against him as well for not having a ring.
> How much talent has Embiid played with?
Enough that it’s shocking he never reached an ECF
Jokic is an awesome player. He just isn’t the best I’ve seen
Bill Russell: 12 finals and 11 championships Kareem: 10 finals and 6 championships Jordan: 6 finals and 6 championships Magic: 9 finals and 5 championships Kobe: 7 finals and 5 championships Duncan: 6 finals and 5 championships Lebron: 10 finals and 4 championships Steph: 6 finals and 4 championships Shaq: 6 finals and 4 championships Bird: 5 finals and 3 championships
Sorry but no. We need to stop letting statflation consume us. He has to do a whole lot more to surpass Bird and Magic.
looks a bit of hopium copium to me. Recentcy bias is hell of a drug.
You can give Jokic his flowers without burning others’.
Magic is in talks of all time PG. Every avid NBA fan has him in their top 3 PGs at least. Jokic is not a top 3 all time Center. A great offensive player. Hall of Famer. Makes the game fun to watch but not top 3 all time.
Why isn’t he comparing it to Steph’s rings at Warriors? Why did he target Bird and Magic?
Answer: Recentcy bias.
Heck, Jokic hasn’t even won more than his peers of his own generation. Zach needs to slow down before comparing Jokic to the undisputed top players of their respective generations.
Jokics traditional box score stats are inflated. His high rebounding totals do well in box score regression stats but he’s an anomaly of a good rebounder while being a horrible defender.
Then he’s obviously an all time great passer but again pads stats with DHO spam.
Don’t get me wrong he’s still a top 2-3 player and probably a top 20 all time at worst, maybe could be around the magic/bird tier.
But you can’t use his insane advanced stats in a vacuum.
Using pure rapm over large samples he’s behind LeBron, KG, and in the next tier with curry, Duncan, cp3 etc. so I think it’s fair to have him around that tier but it’s not he’s clearing th magic Johnson’s and Larry birds of the world.
His defense is a huge issue preventing him from clearing the top guys. Hes in that tier but I think it’s crazy to put him past them.
Good lord, the Jokic circle jerk over at the Ringer is ridiculous and borderline a parody of themselves.
One ring against a bunch of play-in teams is better than KG who went up against peak Kobe, Lebron and the 60 win Pistons in his finals run? Nonsense.
Okay that ring comment is complete bullshit and he doesn’t really believe that, if he does he’s a complete moron
These guys are ruining NBA discourse
The Jokic dickriding is so egregious lmao.
Comments like this is everything wrong with the commentary surrounding in the NBA. It was probably said in jest, but comments like this only widen the gap between generations. Bird and Magic are invaluable to the NBA. Not only are they still Top 5 at their positions, there probably wouldn’t be a league if they came along. Jokic is an all-timer of his own merit, no need to cheapen it by putting down undeniable legends.
As is often the case when people compare folks to Magic…if you saw Magic play you can’t seriously make credible comparisons.
If Jokic has like 2-3 teammates that’s in the top 15 like Bird and Magic did, he would have more than one ring.
Magic won his last two championships without any All-NBA teammates. There were two All-NBA teams back then, but still nobody else would have made it if there were three. In 1988, nobody else would have made it if there were 5
I’m sorry what 2-3 teammates did Bird and Magic have who were top 15? Kareem for sure but otherwise…. huh?
Edit: Evidently OC was referencing top 15 at the time not top 15 of all time. When I read “the top 15” I read it as THE top 15
He means top 15 in that season
Magic Johnson: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy
Larry Bird: Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson
Charitable read is top 15 in the league. Arguments can be made for Worthy, McHale, Parish.
Worthy and McHale were 7 time all stars, Parish was 9 times
James worthy? Kevin McHale? Both were all stars and made NBA first teams, not to mention Worthy was a finals MVP
Come on man.
Stop the disrespect.
Jokic is getting overrated so fast. It’s like people are making up for sleeping on him for so long. He’s one of the greatest offensive players, but really doesn’t have the team success of any other all time great and is by far the worst defender of any top 50 player of all time.
It’s really dumb to say that if Jokic won a championship under the exact same circumstances, with the exact same teammates it would be “worth” less simply because the city on the front of his jersey says “Los Angeles” instead of “Denver”.
It’s weird how he gets no criticism at all for not taking his teams to the Finals. He needs to make at least 3 more FINALS to be in the conversation. I don’t care how great he is in the regular season.
Rough take from Lowe as “stats” do a lot of heavy lifting for Joker during a time offense has never been easier and the love for the game has waned incredibly so. Let alone his one title he wins in his career isn’t aging well, definitely a Top 15 player by the end but moving higher is some rare and very exclusive air
But do these lot also talk about the competition faced to win that one ring?
Surely winning a ring vs tougher competition while having a good team and winning against weaker competition and having a weaker team yourself (compared to all-time greats), that just balances out doesn’t it?
Like Magic beating Bird and the Celtics in his prime vs Jokic not having to face any of that during his run, which gets balanced by the fact that Magic had a great Lakers team while Jokic ‘only’ had solid pieces (gotta say though, Murray was a beast, like what, 33 PPG in the Conference Finals).
To me, this seems logical, I don’t get why others don’t talk about it (or maybe they do).
Jokic can be top 5 all time, in the GOAT debate, better than MJ or Lebron with 1 ring, but Steph could win 10 more rings and still be ranked 12th all time on NBA talk behind Hakeem
Unironically.
I’m sorry if Jokic really was this good he’d be driving 60 win teams. The denver team this year is probanly the msot stacked offensive team in the league outside the lakers and it won 54? If your the best offensive player in the league and you got the second best supporting cast on offence you have tk be pushing 60 wins.
If you aren’t I don’t buy it. Cause one of those things don’t compute and it certainly isn’t the one where having an all-nba guard and 3 forwards capable of averaging 18+ a game And shooting 44% from 3 is anything other than a top 2 most talented offensive roster.
Why do people say dumb stuff like this out loud? Without Bird and Magic there is no NBA, and Jokić is a bouncer in Serbia. Show some respect.