reallinguy | Pistons

419 | 14 hours ago

Well it’s about to be wrong about MVP a 3rd time then.

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

152 | 13 hours ago

BB-Index reworked their LEBRON metric over the past year, which synched it up with historical MVP voting. They used to have Chris Paul first in 2016 (LOL) and Curry first in 2017. And then they advertised this MVP “fit” as a selling point for their data subscriptions.

Which is kinda sketchy…

eggnogeggnogeggnog | Pistons

60 | 10 hours ago

Overfitting your model to 70 data points, you love to see it

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

22 | 9 hours ago

Worse: it only goes back to 2010

yetanotheracct_sp

7 | 7 hours ago

Says more about how underrated Chris Paul is in ‘16 than the reliability of the metric.

Curry’s ‘17 season is also very underrated because it doesn’t stand out like his ‘16 season in terms of box score (and KD) but his impact is still tremendous.

Parallel-Quality

64 | 13 hours ago

Chet is 7.
White is 8.
Duren is 10.

So this stat, while useful, should not be used as an MVP ladder equivalent.

LEBRON WAR is probably better since it factors in the totality of what you did rather than the per minute impact.

gerardguey | Bulls

58 | 12 hours ago

Lebron War sounds like a sick crossover superhero movie

dragoncockles | Celtics

0 | 8 hours ago

Or quite possibly a terrible one

iDEN1ED | Celtics

1 | 8 minutes ago

In the future where the NBA is just a bunch of LeBron cyborgs that go rogue

GreenFriday | OKC

18 | 7 hours ago

For reference, the leaderbpard for LEBRON WAR

Rank	Player	LEBRON WAR
1	Jokic	12.39
2	SGA	12.19
3	Derrick White	11.59
4	Wemby	11.00
5	Luka	10.88
6	Kawhi	10.37
7	Cade	10.30
8	Mitchell	9.14
9	Chet	8.95
10	Maxey	8.75

Advanced stats all love Derrick White, EPM has him high too (although not as high as LEBRON)

Betaateb | Nuggets

11 | 7 hours ago

Derrick White’s impact on winning, and scoring efficiency are negatively correlated lol. It is wild how much value he brings, even without being an efficient scorer. And it is very noticeable when watching the games. Hell of a player.

nugentismycenter | Pistons

6 | 11 hours ago

Duren will likely be 2nd Team All NBA, not saying he is the 10th best player in the NBA but he will be recognize as having a top 10 season. Derrick White is very good and if it wasn’t for his crappy shooting this year he’d be getting more recognition, Chet is the number 2 option this year (only because of J Dub’s injury) on the best team in the league.

iggymcfly

7 | 11 hours ago

Those numbers sound like way more accurate player rankings for this season that most people would place them. Chet and White both deserve second team all-NBA and Duren deserves 3rd team.

Deep-Ad5028

1 | 11 hours ago

Per minutes metrics are heavily biased towards Wemby

Broken_Lute

4 | 13 hours ago

Wemby probably has to play a little more to win the MVP. His durability is their biggest question mark heading into playoffs.

PeopleCallMeSimon

3 | 12 hours ago

Yea because if everyone just follows an arbitrary metric and uses that as a reason for their MVP voting then of course that arbitrary metric will be good at predicting the MVP.

ForneauCosmique | Spurs

3 | 13 hours ago

☹️

illegallaw

1 | 6 hours ago

Stat that ESPN analytics use has SGA leading by a WIDE margin.

rawspeghetti | Celtics

204 | 14 hours ago

Pretty absurd that DWhite was one of the most inefficient shooters this year and still ranked this highly. Guy is truly elite at so many aspects of the game

MyTeamsSuck99

75 | 13 hours ago

He has like a 8 year sample of just insane +/- impact on lineups lol. Mediocre counting stats but insane lineup impact.

MatchAffectionate951

56 | 12 hours ago

These playoffs ima watch Celtics games and ONLY watch Derrick white every possession. Not the ball

I’ll decipher what makes him good

highrustler | Celtics

48 | 10 hours ago

If you watch the game, you don’t see ~~Busquets~~ White. But if you watch ~~Busquets~~ White, you see the whole game

NazReidRules | Timberwolves

13 | 8 hours ago

When God created space, ~~Müller~~ White was already there

drprox

6 | 11 hours ago

Report back!

bigpapi-did-steroids | Spurs

16 | 14 hours ago

Give him back he’s ours

I_Set_3_Alarms | Celtics

26 | 12 hours ago

The league needs to implement a foreign exchange player program so Celtics and Spurs can just trade Derrick White and Luke Kornet back and forth throughout the season

jkwah | Celtics

11 | 12 hours ago

Trading him is what enabled the Spurs to eventually get Wemby so I agree it seems fair we swap to make things right.

ColdCocking | Hornets

-6 | 13 hours ago

If he wasn’t shooting so bad this year, he’d be the MVP legitimately

digital_deer | Spurs

122 | 14 hours ago

I don’t think Wemby will win the MVP and even as a biased Spurs fan I don’t necessarily think he should, but anyone acting like voting for him isn’t completely reasonable is nuts

MyTeamsSuck99

58 | 13 hours ago

The issue is it’s a rate stat. The cumulative version of this wemby wouldn’t be first. And mvp is more of a cumulative award, at least partially when it’s this close.

Per minute wemby has been the most dominant player in the league for sure. But total volume matters as well when Shai and jokic are right behind him.

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

33 | 13 hours ago

The cumulative version of this wemby wouldn’t be first.

He’s fourth in their cumulative version, which is the one that’s relevant to MVP.

MyTeamsSuck99

27 | 13 hours ago

Exactly. So it’s clear wemby is the most efficient in his minutes but his per minute production will likely be hit if he played more too.

Ready_Preparation816

-13 | 13 hours ago

You would think being more productive in less minutes would be an argument for him instead of against especially when he is the major reason for their success.

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

23 | 13 hours ago

more productive in less minutes

That’s not what this metric is saying. It’s saying he’s more productive per minute (per 100 possessions, actually), but he’s less productive overall because he played far fewer minutes.

Ready_Preparation816

-4 | 12 hours ago

yes i worded it wrong but yes he’s more productive per minute of playing time

Southern_Clerk8697

1 | 4 hours ago

If he were playing the same total minutes as the other guys, you could say that. But he’s not so it’s not that simple. You can’t just assume that he can maintain the same level of production as his minutes increasee

BoredofBored | Bulls

10 | 13 hours ago

Who do you want on the team (in a vacuum)?

Player A who is 50% more impactful than the average starter but only plays 50% of available minutes?

Or

Player B who is 40% more impactful than the average starter but plays 80% of available minutes?

The math says Player B despite Player A being 10% “better”. Productivity requires availability.

Christron | Spurs

1 | 9 hours ago

Yes and while I think Jokic and SGA had a better season, Jokic played in 57% of all total minutes and Wemby in 47% (excluding NBA cup final I believe). Both are closer to 50 than 80

Ready_Preparation816

0 | 12 hours ago

i’m not even saying he’s mvp or better than shai im more talking about the people who make it seem like he’s just playing a couple minutes a game and his team is doing most of the work without him.

He’s been available post minutes restriction and has been amazing which is all i’m saying.

MyTeamsSuck99

2 | 12 hours ago

Doesn’t make him the mvp.

Ready_Preparation816

2 | 12 hours ago

did u not read what i said? i just said that shai is the mvp

Ok-Tree4365

6 | 13 hours ago

Which is why he deserves non-1st place votes.

SerenadeSwift | Supersonics

4 | 12 hours ago

Am I reading this wrong or does your link show the exact same order as OP’s post? Am I missing a LEBRON CUM category or something?

nowhathappenedwas | NBA

3 | 12 hours ago

The WAR column.

Uabot_lil_man0

-1 | 12 hours ago

I’m dead

LimitlessTheTVShow | Thunder

16 | 13 hours ago

I like Wemby (so long as I ignore my fandom) and think he’s been very impactful this year, but I do think it’s a little wild to vote for a guy for MVP who has played 400 fewer minutes than the other top candidates. At his MPG average, that’s over 13 games. Even with his impact, I don’t know how you could ignore that

moonshadow50 | Spurs

1 | 10 hours ago

And I agree that Shai is clearly ahead of him - and should be 1st on the vast majority of ballots.

And I’m also not saying Wemby is definitely 2nd. But its mad to think he doesn’t have a good case. I think 2-4 (if Luka is given eligibility) could, and should, be very close.

But if Wemby’s total +/- (and on/off numbers) are far ahead of Luka and Jokic (and last I saw, 2nd only to SGA), then why should minutes matter? If he puts you ahead 10points in 30mpg, and they only put you up 5 in 35mpg - then isn’t he the more valuable player? And neither has played more games than him. So why does his less minutes matter when he is, clearly over the course of the season, putting his team into more winning positions.

Armanewb | Spurs

0 | 8 hours ago

I swear by some of the discourse here people think that if Wemby played an extra 3 or 4 mins a game his +/- would actually decrease or something.

Subject_Profit_7245

-1 | 13 hours ago

Right. Wemby is already at worst the 3rd best player in the league (SGA and Jokic are his only competition) and clearly not at his peak yet (which is scary), but Spurs fans love to ignore that all his +/- and advanced stats are inflated by him only playing 25 min a game when he plays at all.

calmrain | Lakers

1 | 8 hours ago

Lmao Luka was balling out until his injury. Luka > Wemby until these playoffs, where Wemby can prove himself.

digital_deer | Spurs

1 | 13 hours ago

I just don’t know when this became a key criteria? It’s like if right at the end of a season we all decided fouls per game was a huge essential metric that nearly disqualified one guy. Like, sure, I guess, but this isn’t a conversation we’ve been having until right now. I feel like it’s just an indirect way to say his counting stats aren’t high enough, which is a fine and reasonable thing to say on its own IMO

Subject_Profit_7245

12 | 13 hours ago

Bc being more available for your team makes you more valuable? At what point do you draw the line? We all agree peak Embiid avg 35/12/6 is insane but only playing 35 games is not good, so the line is there somewhere.

digital_deer | Spurs

-1 | 13 hours ago

I’m talking about games played as oppossed to minutes though. Like you immediatly started talking about games played because that’s how we’ve pretty much always considered it before. I don’t understand why now suddenly it’s about minutes.

BoredofBored | Bulls

7 | 12 hours ago

I’m copying this from another reply, but I’m curious what your take on it is.

Who do you want on the team (in a vacuum)?

Player A who is 50% more impactful than the average starter but only plays 50% of available minutes?

Or

Player B who is 40% more impactful than the average starter but plays 80% of available minutes?

The math says Player B despite Player A being 10% “better”. Productivity requires availability, and I’d argue (as would the point of the OP) most valuable is generally defined as most productive

Orphasmia | Warriors

2 | 12 hours ago

I think it’s worth looking into why he’s played less minutes though as well. There were injuries but he also has less minutes due to sitting early because he wasn’t needed, because he and the team already put the game out of reach. When it’s games played he’s played as much as the others up for MVP.

digital_deer | Spurs

2 | 12 hours ago

Yeah, in a vacuum B is better, and I think that’s a very reasonable arguement, and ultimately the one people are making when they point to minutes played.

But I guess where I disagree is we have the end results (ie the stats and team record) to consider. Like, it’s all there. We don’t need to guesstimate what the percentages are. I feel like for the minutes played to be a determining factor, the logical conclusion would be “Wemby would be my MVP if he had an extra 200 minutes played where he achieved no stats at all.” That seems a bit silly to me. Either his numbers and impact are good enough to be MVP or they’re not.

Overall I agree with the spirit of the rules in place currently that “avaliability” is more about being able to play in games then how much you end up playing in said games. He was avaliable to play as the Spurs saw fit in 65 games, same as Jokic. He impacted the Spurs’ ability to win ⁶⁵⁄₈₂ games. Ultimately, IMO, making it about minutes played is comparing him to a hypothetical version of himself rather than the other candidates.

BoredofBored | Bulls

1 | 12 hours ago

Fair, although I’d point out he’d need to contribute at his current level for those additional 200 minutes in order to tip the scales. A truly empty 200 extra minutes would reduce his time weighted impact quite a bit.

I’m in favor generally with using season totals rather than per game averages for this exact reason, or at least factoring both of those metrics into the evaluation.

LimitlessTheTVShow | Thunder

1 | 12 hours ago

Playing time has always been a key criteria. Usually we talk about it in terms of games played, but no one has ever won an MVP playing fewer than 30 minutes per game

Abyss333333 | Toronto Huskies

2 | 14 hours ago

I dont get why he isnt the top choice. Literally everything says he is the most impactful player.

If he shows off these playoffs, people are gonna put way more weight into these metrics

Sudden_Narwhal_6132 | Spurs

16 | 14 hours ago

epm which is arguably the most important advanced stat doesnt.

EmbarrassedRing7806 | Lakers

9 | 13 hours ago

I dont get why he isnt the top choice. Literally everything says he is the most impactful player.

No it doesnt

Why do people making cases for wemby always have to lie haha. If his case is so strong then you’d expect honesty

captain_ahabb | Lakers

8 | 13 hours ago

The minutes gap is too big for me.

If the Spurs had the 1 seed maybe I’d consider it. As it stands I think it’s gotta be SGA.

trybeingcurious | NBA

3 | 14 hours ago

Availability matters.

digital_deer | Spurs

-5 | 14 hours ago

The “minutes played” thing is so goofy man, something people started complaing about out of the blue like 2 weeks ago and are simultanously claiming he stat paded constantly.

trybeingcurious | NBA

1 | 14 hours ago

People who complain about stat padding are ridiculous. If it’s easy to get buckets, boards, assists and stocks then why doesn’t everyone just go stat pad?

Minutes and availability have always been discussed in MVP, especially when one of the candidates has way less than the others.

digital_deer | Spurs

3 | 13 hours ago

I cannot say I’ve ever heard anyone talk about minutes specifically. Maybe I’m wrong, but I only started hearing it be brought up by Luka fans (understandably) upset about the 65 game rule. I don’t really understand the logic of saying a guy’s stats would be more impressive if he had gotten them over more minutes.

teamorange3 | Knicks

5 | 13 hours ago

We have never had a NBA MVP average fewer than 30 mins and only 3 had fewer than 65 games in a non-shortened season. He would be an absolute outlier in terms of the amount of time played for an MVP.

I honestly don’t care too much about that, if you single handedly win 50 games in 20 mins by averaging 80/20/20 you deserve the mvp. However, minutes are still important, especially when looking at on/off stats. If you’re not playing you’re not making an impact. Jokic playing ~400 more minute means 400 minute of impact. Does Wemby make up for that lack of participation? Id say no.

digital_deer | Spurs

3 | 14 hours ago

I can understand it, it’s overstated but he is somewhat inconsistent offensively and his PPG isn’t what you associate with an MVP. Cearly the award is viewed with something like 80% weight given to offense, that’s just the way it is and will continue to be. Plus like you said, it’s not suppossed to be factored in but people don’t want to give the MVP to someone who “hasn’t done anything yet.”

The trade off is again like you said, if he plays well in the playoffs going into next season he’ll absolutely be the favorite.

Icy_Information_6563 | Suns

2 | 13 hours ago

Ya the narrative is going to shift if Wemby’s defense shows up as big as it has in the regular season. I know the MVP is a regular season award, but it’s also subjective and clearly based on people’s preconceived notions of what the best player in the league means. Wemby’s ability to defend the paint might be the best we’ve ever seen, and I don’t think people really realize how big of a deal that is yet.

RFFF1996 | Thunder

1 | 13 hours ago

Per minute on/off it does but that is only one measure of value

Shai and jokic probably would improve their [per minute] stats a little bit playing 5 minutes less

boybraden | Thunder

1 | 13 hours ago

Most impact per minute doesn’t mean total more impact over the season if they play significantly less minutes.

Subject_Profit_7245

1 | 13 hours ago

Bc he only plays 25 min a game when he plays at all.

doktarr

1 | 12 hours ago

People who want to shit on these stats will continue to shit on these stats irrespective of what happens in the playoffs. The collective embarrassment over denying Jokic the 2023 MVP and then watching him torch the league in the playoffs only lasted one year. Then we were right back to sharing compilations of him conceding layups.

Ok-Tree4365

1 | 13 hours ago

I do not think it is reasonable to give Wemby a 1st place vote for MVP this season. I don’tt hink it’s “completely unreasonable”, but he still makes too many mistakes in comparison to Shai and Jokic, and the minutes argument is legitimate.

ymi17 | Thunder

1 | 10 hours ago

Obviously Wemby Shai and Jokic are all defensible mvp votes.

AskAboutMySecret | Brazil

13 | 14 hours ago

Two Lebron’s and neither are top 10?

The James family LeFraud checked once again

Jack_The_Sparrow_ | Warriors

8 | 14 hours ago

Me (3.9)

I_Set_3_Alarms | Celtics

6 | 12 hours ago

With his poor shooting this year, Derrick White still top 10. My man

--Rick--Astley--

5 | 10 hours ago

Cringiest forced acronym of all time.

crazier_horse | Lakers

7 | 6 hours ago

That’s what makes it funny

fairlife42g

3 | 14 hours ago

I really want to see Kawhi in the playoffs. But I also want to see Steph.

pandaisunbreakable

2 | 14 hours ago

that name is still dumb

better_every_day14 | Nuggets

30 | 14 hours ago

It is dumb, but it’s also funny

reallinguy | Pistons

28 | 14 hours ago

well, it’s either this or DARKO, take your pick

Rikter14 | Warriors

2 | 12 hours ago

DARKO is better because at least I can search for it online and find it. Any time I try to find LEBRON I just end up with a million search results for Lebron James.

DragoniteGang | Timberwolves

1 | 3 hours ago

Just type “lebron index”

Remarkable-Art-3678

8 | 14 hours ago

Its great. Wtf

RFFF1996 | Thunder

2 | 13 hours ago

Backronyms are cool

Uabot_lil_man0

1 | 12 hours ago

I mean it was literally made to show Lebron is the GOAT. So I doubt they ever change it.

Ok-Tree4365

2 | 13 hours ago

The same names keep popping up in these different metrics. Kawhi should be a lock for 1st Team, but I’m certain he’ll end up in 2nd or 3rd, which… fair enough, his team very well may not make it out of the Play-In.

NotDanKenz | Lakers

2 | 11 hours ago

After that 6-21 start, they played at a 53 win pace which would be good for 3rd in the West. It’s not crazy to think he should be 1st team.

NotEdGruberman

1 | 7 hours ago

I’m

guapoguzman

1 | 3 hours ago

The acronym department and the yoga department have collabed to stretch the meaning of acronyms past a point of hyperextension

DeskGroundbreaking28

-2 | 14 hours ago

I love all this stats that involves luck. If the plsyer had normal luck this would happen. If the player had bad luck this would happen. Stats are a great tool to manipulate what outcomes you desire. You can always put numbers of crush stats together to show everyone that someone is better than others. It’s like the players agent canlme up with this idea to getl their clients a better deal. If you look at these stats only my client is the most valuable player on the team so he needs a max contract.

RFFF1996 | Thunder

6 | 13 hours ago

Luck adjustment is a very, very specific thingh

Is stuff like seeing if your rivals shot fts better or worse than usual agaunst you, or if their wide open 3’s missed or hit at an outlier rate

Thinghs that generally are out of your control [like someone shooting 30% vs you and 45% vs someone else in exactly the same wide open corner shots]

DariaYankovic

-4 | 13 hours ago

so it is wrong at predicting this year’s MVP, and has been wrong many times recently. How good is it as a leading indicator? Ex: Wemby wins MVP next year

Lots of NBA awards are based as much off last year as they are current year

Greenwalrus72 | Nuggets

4 | 13 hours ago

It’s been wrong 1 time recently (2011 not recent enough) and that was a highly contentious award (Embiid over Jokic) I wouldn’t say it’s “been wrong many times recently”

DariaYankovic

0 | 12 hours ago

huh, i could have sworn it got some wrong recently.

AssignmentIll1748 | Knicks

1 | 12 hours ago

Two of the previous times were really dumb narrative driven reasons

Metal_Sonic7 | Pelicans

-4 | 14 hours ago

Luka the Don will be the LEBRON this year

Impossible-Group8553

-4 | 14 hours ago

You’re telling me a 24 year old Giannis was better than Jokic at his absolute prime or 2016 Steph or 2014 KD? I’m not saying it’s a bad stat but all of these stats should be taken with a grain of salt.

deemerritt | Hornets

22 | 13 hours ago

Giannis was absolutely unreal in 2020 dude lol.

siphillis | Spurs

3 | 9 hours ago

Also played just above 30 MPG. Tons of per-minute impact

Subject_Profit_7245

-1 | 13 hours ago

Especially in the playoffs against Boston 🔥

ThrowRa-zucchinizzc

7 | 13 hours ago

He was unstoppable on offense and DPOY. Jokic is a turnstile on defense, that’s half the game bro. Is Jokic one of the best of all time, yes, his offensive game and passing, etc.

Subject_Profit_7245

-2 | 13 hours ago

This talking point is dated just like it became for Steph Curry, Jokic is an average defender now.

ThrowRa-zucchinizzc

4 | 13 hours ago

Great offense, average defense, cool. Giannis was great offense and great defense. It’s not incomprehensible that Giannis had a higher LEBRON

Uabot_lil_man0

0 | 11 hours ago

Average defense with a caveat. It’s average for a center, which by virtue of his position makes it above average defense.

mickeyj623 | Celtics

6 | 13 hours ago

Gianni’s that year was insane. Much better defensive player than he is now and a straight wreaking ball. Plus he was newer so not much strats on defending him til a little later

End of season LEBRON rankings