it’s hard for sure, but winning a ring or two in the next few years in this conference against the likes of the Spurs with Wemby, OKC, and of course the TWolves and maybe even the Lakers with Luka does give him a “harder” ring to get than others

If he does win this year, then it’ll be the most memorable gauntlet in recent memory. He’ll be basically fighting three 60+ win teams (I’m just saying Detroit to make it three 60+ win teams, but Boston is still a strong matchup).

It’s tough but also not tough for someone at his level. I could easily see Jokic winning another title and having more deep runs.

I think the current nba and overall younger fans have finally started contributing to rings being less overrated when it comes to judging individual players. On the court, it´s hard to deny that Jokic is in rarefied air - certainly on some people´s personal mt. rushmore.

No one has won more than 4 since LeBron was drafted and given that Wemby, Shai, Luka and Jokic are all playing at the same time rings will almost certainly become a borderline useless indicator of at least some of their ranks in nba history.

Jokic top 5 may look a bit off going by mere accolades, but given his skills it´s not even a reach. Put KD in there as well if you want, I wouldn´t mind.

My rating doesn’t really have to do with where he stands “at this exact moment”. I’m watching him play, and I’ve watched him play a lot, and he is one of the best players I’ve ever seen and I’ve been watching basketball since 1990 pretty closely.

If he ended up retiring tomorrow I wouldn’t have him top 5 for example when comparing careers. I’m just comparing their game-to-game impact and it’s obvious to me he’s one of the best players ever

Haven’t watched a lot of greats from before then other than highlights, so I could certainly be downplaying magic, bird, Russell, etc. but to me he’s doing what magic did but from the fucking C position lmao so like he’s already ahead of him easily in my book

I think a lot depends on what the next decade plus under the 2nd apron cap rules look like. If dynasties are basically dead for this era of basketball, he will probably be judged (or at least should be) a lot differently for only having 1 ring/FMVP compared to his historical peers.

I have LeBron and Jordan in tier 1, Kareem in tier 1.5, and everyone else including Jokic in tier 2 that you mentioned. So in my opinion he’s got a claim for top 5

At his current trajectory that seems likely.

Personally I am done with the ring nonsense. The league is just so different now with the cap rules that winning multiple rings is so much harder than its ever been.

I just watch the players and make my decision on that.

I can count on one hand the players all-time I would trade Jokic for. That’s why for me he is a top 5 player.

Because PG is a far less important position than C

With shoes on he’s top 10

13-15 is not downplaying him. There have been like 5000 players and he plays on one end. The most important end but one end nonetheless. I wouldn’t expect a different reaction tho given this is a Jokic circle jerk post

If he retired right now, he’d be 13th in the GOAT conversation behind (in no order): MJ, LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Kareem, Bird, Steph, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bill.

Hard to argue this in my opinion. Jokic just needs more playoff runs, and another chip wouldn’t hurt. The difference between Steph and Jokic (12 and 13 probably) is 3 rings and about 70 career playoff games.

Peak? He likely is.

I think overall we need to see how he ages over the next 5-10 years.

He also doesn’t foul which helps a a lot of his advanced stats as I understand it

I like this. I personally have him at 9th. I didn’t think the general perception agreed with me.

Aren’t you late to a “Shai is not a flopper” post somewhere?

False assists by Centers are valued more than assists from guards

BPM 2.0 values assists more for the Center position.

It’s weighted 0.580 vs 1.034. The only bigger gap in positioned variables is blocks for guards which is barely even bigger of a gap (which shouldn’t make sense)

I’m not arguing if Jokic is a good defender. I think he has to play defense a different way because blocking every shot attempt and contesting everything at the rim will result in him getting into foul trouble early, which kills his team.

Because of Jokic’s role on the team, he has to defend a different way, like you mentioned.

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Shais last two seasons have both been up there in BPM as well. Both top 15 all time off the top of my head, ahead of every guard season ever except some MJ ones and Stephs 2016.

Kinda depends on your assessment. If you think Shai last season/this season has been as good/better than Jokic then its underrating him (or overrating Jokic). But the metric already has Shai as playing better than almost any guard ever.

Jokic a stat stuffer? LOL. He could score 50 points most games and win more MVPs but he cares about (1) winning and (2) elevating everyone else around him so (1) is more probable. That’s how he plays. Period. Everyone who plays with him has better years and definitely better stats when he’s on the court. Ask Russ. Or Tim Hardaway.

Exactly. Basketball is incredibly hard to get one stat as a satisfactory screenshot of a whole player. BPM should be used with VORP, Net Rating and PER to create a more accurate picture.

Yes, VORP uses BPM in it, but it’s a clearer picture of how much better the player is than an average NBA player at their position is.

For defense, just use the eye-test as well. There’s a reason Jokic doesn’t foul much. If he fouled, his team loses their offensive engine and that just can’t happen.

I remember last year people said if you flipped Jokic’s assists and blocks, his DBPM would go down lmao

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html he’s the current 2.0 formula breakdown and how everything works.

They was better last year and still got humiliated