The switch up from “Jaylen Brown is the Celtics’ best player” to shit on Tatum after the Finals MVP to “Jaylen Brown is a net negative to the Celtics” to shit on Brown has been a sight to behold.

Lotta feelings being spent on a guy we all agree isn’t even on the podium for this award

Genuinely think it’s a good thing there is nuance to his case. Granted if Cade doesn’t get hurt JB probably finishes 6th but every case doesn’t have to fit in the box of “best stats,” to put it simply. He’s definitely risen off narrative and preseason expectation or lack thereof. That’s cool.

Man, some people are really spending a ton of time to discredit the person that is, at best, going to finish 5th in the MVP race. It’s ok, he’s not going to get it. Deep breath.

I implore all of you advanced stat-obsessed geniuses to watch the Celtics game last night and try to convince yourself that they were doing better without JB.

This is getting tired.

The Raptors went like 17-5 without Kawhi in 2019. They also were on pace for 60 wins without him the next year

Im also not stupid enough to say Kawhi is overrated and we didn’t need him

Jaylen has always been a perfect of example of why you have to watch the games.

Shows how flawed this stat is. I’ve watched every Celtics game this year and he is without a doubt the most important player to our offense. Not even a debate

Oh my god how dumb this is.  We have a better record without him because he only sits against the easiest tanking teams and shows up for 99% of everything else.  Yall dumb as hell for falling for this. 

That record without him is goofy when you actually look at who we played, when we played them.

Most of the games he takes off are against tanking teams or teams resting their stars during schedule quirks.

They just lost last night because, when Tatum didn’t have it, they couldn’t turn to JB.

Seems like an odd choice to try and tear down a guy not even really in the conversation.

having a hard time believing OP has even watched him play.. hes been rather unguardable this entire season, getting to his points with relative easy

its comical how defenders are unable to stay in front of him, hes clearly taken his game to the next level.. something hes actively and noticeably done each season, growing and adding to his game

If you put this much effort into something productive you might not be such a loser!

JB has been incredibly consistent and persistent. Old narratives die hard. NBA social media fanbase perpetuates the most negative toxic narratives possible, and those narratives create herd mentality.

So long story short JB is fucked. Everyone already decided what his value is and the opinion won’t change. Never mind mazulla is simply an excellent team coach, and the system isn’t really single-star centered. That would not fit the narrative.

The debate around who will actually win the MVP is annoying enough already, people don’t need to also start gatekeeping the guy who comes in fifth.

Weird this is even being discussed.. but ok

This is all so stupid

i seriously cannot stand advanced stat nerds lol

My guess is that Brown is too much of a black hole for someone who has the ball that much. Especially earlier in the 6 years period. But I don’t closely watch the Celtics, just the national TV games, what’s the general consensus on why the stats are negative on JB?

Edit: Dunno if people are getting emotionally attached to the All-NBA debates or if reading comprehension has just gone out the window. But none of the replys are offering reasons as to why the stats are what they are. Instead they’re offering narrative justifications for why JB is a good NBA player. He obviously is…

Interesting it’s a Lakers fan posting this considering LeBron finished top 5 MVP last season with a negative on/off differential and a -54 +/- (bottom 5 on his team)

OP just because Boston’s bench is the best in the leauge do you think that has any effect on his on off? You moron hater 

We get it wtf

Imagine basically telling someone they don’t deserve 5th place. Lmao fuck that they are literally nowhere near actually winning, let me tell you why you don’t even deserve the losing spot you got lmaoo

If there are stats that are telling us that a team isn’t way better with a 2-way player who is averaging an efficient 29, 7 and 5, then those stats aren’t reflective of reality.

JB hate posts are the new Kobe Bryant hate posts.

Oh man how is this going to affect Finals MVP Jaylen Brown

Yeah, but have you considered that Jaylen brown is the balls

Jokic top 10 in everything pretty much averaging a triple double and won’t get mvp

This just means the Celtics bench is better than other benches. Which it is.

Just admit Jokic is better than Luka bro. C’mon.

The Celtics might be really good, maybe even better, against bad teams without Jaylen Brown. HOWEVER, his on/off actually flips positive against good teams which I never see discussed here

Thinking basketball had an interesting episode about this recently, and one point was is that he historically plays with a ton of versatile, elite advanced stat guys like Tatum, White, Jrue, etc. So in those lineups, his skillset can become a little redundant because he doesn’t have the little things like off ball defense or quick decision making that they do, and it’s hard to make an already great team even better.

However, when you play a strong defense, you need guys who can force the issue and get buckets- Jaylen is the best at that. He also locks in incredibly way more defensively in tough matchups, which was a big part of his FMVP.

At the end of the day, you can’t win a ring with just elite role players and ball movement. You need someone who can go to war in grimey games and that’s what Brown adds, especially when the team isn’t super stacked like in the past. Unless you think he should genuinely be removed and they’d get better, there’s something that the stats are missing with him and it’s honestly a pretty interesting discussion when it’s not just hate.

Oh just shut the fuck up already

Damn my guy can’t even be in the conversation for 4th or 5th place without “well actually’s” lmao.

Yeah but who was the finals MVP

If you’re not first you might as well be last. It doesn’t matter.

People dont realize how good Payton Pritchard is. He won us probably 5-10 games this year.

good thing he’s not winning the award and i mean that in the best way possible

James Brown

Paul Brown

Jaylen Brown

Tics in five

Derrick white is their MVP I still got his back even though he got outed as a conspiracy nut this year

Someone show this to Wilbon. In all seriousness JB is a dog. Watch the games.

Can someone please explain to me what all these stats are missing?? Like anyone with half a brain that’s watching the game can see that Jaylen Brown is a positive winning player. The advanced metrics don’t show that which leads me to believe the advanced metrics are missing something pretty important. The gulf between these stats and what you see when you watch the games is huge. It’s not a minor miscalculation and Brown is like slightly negative. We have numbers telling us that a guy that definitely has an argument for most valuable player in the league being shown as a negative.

That’s why there’s a thing called the eye test too.

Damn, sounds like a scrub, I think the Warriors should do the Celtics a solid and take him

Please make your point OP
Is Jaylen Brown a negative player ?
You’re providing these stats , what’s your agenda ? what is the message you’re trying to convey ?

lol Celtics were supposed to be a play in team at best. Three starters were end of rotation guys a year ago. Basically a g league team and Derrick White. JB has them second in the East and 4th overall. Open your eyes and watch the games. Fucking nerds.

Hit pieces gonna shine. Lol— nerds and their new roles.

I wish they stayed in mlb, but alas.

do stat watchers not realize they sound like clowns with this narrative?

There’s a stat from the Duncan Spurs that, in the playoffs, Manu without Duncan was +8, and Duncan without Manu was -3 in played minutes. Likewise, with the Warriors, Draymon Green’s net rating was + 18.9 in the regular season while Steph Curry’s net rating was only a merely +11.7.

This is not to say analytics are wrong, but more that there’s other factors under the hood. Duncan was not an efficient scorer, for example, but he was also your anchor for, there’s 8 seconds left on the shot clock, get it into him for a bank shot, or, team’s tired, lets let him have it and conserve our energy. Green, likewise, could only be as good as he was because Curry’s gravity enabled him to be used to his full potential.

The Celtics are a super deep team. They also need someone to be effectively an innings eater in baseball terms, someone who is reliable and can keep the rest of the team from being burnt out, even if their actual performance is below efficient. Brown’s done that for the Celtics, where he might be below efficient, but could anyone else on the bench for a long period of time step up and do what he did as efficiently as Brown?

Now, is he MVP level, that’s debatable. I’m biased since from Cleveland, but with the Cavs having single-digit games of their top 4 players (Mitchell/Mobley/Allen/Garland or Harden) actually playing together at the same time, having Mitchell likewise in that keep everything together role, I’d have Mitchell over Brown. I do think Brown’s on that 2nd tier with Cade and Mitchell and Kawaii and Tyrese Maxey (seriously, go look up his advanced numbers) of almost-MVP level guys.

Jesus we’re hyper analyzing the guy in 5th place now

I don’t put much into on/off tbh.

Derrick white im pretty sure has a positive on/off yet his shooting has been god awful this year.

There is more nuance to this than people are willing to admit.

Jaylen Brown IS overrated right now. He is not a top 10 player in the league and probably not a top 15 player in the league. I think this mostly comes from people for some reason thinking he is an elite defender, when he is and always has been an average defender.

The Celtics ARE clearly a system team. Plug and play to the max. They don’t necessarily need Jaylen Brown to be the guy.

Jaylen Brown absolutely DID have a high end variance season. He absolutely WAS one of the top 10 players in the league this year. He WAS much better than previous years in a more challenging role.

Jaylen is a winning player because of his heart, toughness, work ethic and mentality. His production is very good. He makes a ton of mistakes on defense (team defense in particular) and he’s a black hole on offense in certain situations; his assists numbers are up, but he doesn’t move the ball very readily. This season he went up a level in all areas and that’s incredible. But surely celtics brass is aware of the pros and cons of his game and has made the calculation that he’s not going anywhere… unless the Bucks wanna trade us Giannis.

Can I post tomorrow’s Jaylen thread except make it about how cool and handsome he is

what is the celtics record without Jayson?

Really nice graphs, how did you make them? I like the horizontal text on the y axis, nice valuable touch.

But aura doe

Huh. He’s clearly their best player though. This is truly interesting

Nobody gives a fuck about positions 3-10 in the mvp vote 

High volume low efficiency guys have tricked y’all. And since you give all the credit to the best player that makes all their teammates underrated on well balanced stacked teams

This is exactly how the Celtics get shafted in awards every year. People just split the attribution evenly and reward nobody because of some arbitrary metrics. Everyone knows Jaylen has been a borderline mvp candidate for 80% of the season

holy fuck shut up about this already

I saw Durant on that graph. Everything is meaningless from this

Why do people hate the Jays so much bro lol? JB is only praised when it can be used to shit on Tatum and Tatum only reluctantly got some love after having a potential career altering injury, now the haters are back to normal. You got two relatively harmless All NBA level players that just get constantly shit on.

MITWESTBRICK

ok so you think we should waive him, then? good to know 

We have a great bench, that’s the entire story. And if you follow the Celtics and watch interviews, it’s clearly a bench that JB leads and empowers. Walsh has talked about his minutes coming from JB talking to Joe and pushing him in practice, and there are a million of those CNS interviews with 40 views out there saying the same thing by the whole team.

JB is really the only ‘enforcer’ on the team that doesn’t back down. He’s not Lambier but he sets the tone, and we’d get walked on this season without. I love DWhite and PP but they aren’t going to be that guy.

Also the most vocal advocating for the whistle. Which has worked whatever you feel about it, we went from like dead last in whistles at the start of this season.

All those little things have put Boston at the #2 seed in the east with a cast of g-league, bench players. Is he MVP? Probably not, but he is by far the most valuable Celtic and this is one of the most impressive seasons by ANY player. If you watched it, you saw straight willpower carry this team

I hate the Celtics and I don’t really care about Jaylen Brown, but this is fucking dumb. Stats have limitations. Jaylen Brown is not making the Celtics worse.

KG was such a dawg.

This is one of those times where analytical stats can just be misleading. Because if you think the Celtics would still be the 2 seed without Brown all year you’re a fucking moron.

Boston about to be gifted Giannis for Brown this off-season. Watch.

This isn’t an indictment on Brown, this just shows how good the Celtics role player and depth are.

Oh man, he’s right: we should sell that bum for nothing and we’d be a much better team! The stats aren’t misleading!! /s

MVP “discourse” is whack