Was Doc Rivers overrated during his Celtics tenure?
Did the Celtics outperform expectations with their big 3 or no during that era? Was it a case where the team was stacked enough that any coach couldn’t really fail?
He’s actually so not rated that he can’t be overrated any more
the question is how was he rated during the celtics era…
He was rated R for Raspy
Celtics were stacked, but he did have to manage the egos of three 30+ year old players who had been the number one on their team for their entire careers, which he more or less was able to do.
As a comparison, everyone seems to (rightly) think highly of Brad Stevens but he wasn’t able to handle the personalities on the Kyrie-era Celtics.
I think with hindsight people will call Doc overrated, but he put together a good staff and got buy-in from a ton of veterans in ‘08. I’m not sophisticated enough to speak to his tactics, but I certainly don’t think any coach would’ve won with that team.
They also played incredibly good basketball for the era. Great ball movement on offense and communication on defense. Obviously he had Thibs as an assistant which surely helped. But when those Celtics started playing that first season they were very obviously a cut above.
The system was good, ego management was good, use of role players was very good, he surely was a part of helping Rondo develop into a star, etc.
They really weren’t all that on offense, only 9th in the league despite all that talent that in theory should have fit together like a glove. They underachieved quite a bit on that end.
Doc had a lot of political capital to deal with NBA egos at that time, which Ainge completed exploited by loading the roster with all sorts of combustible or prickly characters like Big Baby, Rasheed, Rondo, Ray Allen, KG, Von Wafer, Delonte, etc etc etc … so many teams have imploded because the head coach gets run over and that just didnt happen with 2005-2013 Doc Rivers, who could manage a room and egos and really hold his own… underrated quality
In Brad’s defense Kyrie has been poison on pretty much every team he’s been on
They win with a average coach to be honest thibs was on the assistant coaches though so that might’ve helped
It definetely helped. I remember reading articles from the Celtics website that the impressive defense is atributable to the associate head coach.
The whole flood the strongside concept worked really well, but with KG on the backline, and team buy-in on defense, they were gonna be a problem without the scheme. That said, the defense got copied a bunch, and helped push the whole side-to-side reversal you saw with the Spurs a few years later.
The staff in general was really good, the roster was deep (getting Cassell, and Brown as buyout guys was honestly unfair as all hell.)
I think Glenn did do a great job, but that ultimately caused more problems for his future employers than it folks thought he was mid.
But he didn’t manage them that well.
That was his year in the sun. He probably didn’t do the heavy lifting, but he was at least good in his role, if not great.
It lead to him having the opportunity to prove that was a major outlier, but saying the ‘08 Cs weren’t well managed is crazy.
I’m not saying the 08 Celtics weren’t managed well. I’m saying he didn’t keep the egos in check, because eventually they broke up…and Ray went and helped another team win.
I don’t think it was egos that broke them up. KG wasnt the same player after his injury and they had a core in their 30s. They maybe had one more year as contenders but I think everyone knew they were running on fumes
Pretty sure 2008 is peak doc rivers.
That Ray Allen situation is much more on Ainge but the team was past it in age at that point anyway
Doc was great coach in 2000s. Like yeah, he got Big 3… but he made them work from the start. And aside 2008 he made another finals and pushed 2012 Heat to game 7 when combined age of Big 3 was somewhere around millenium.
That being said… Basketball changed 2015 onwards. So being great coach prior to GSW, Rockets etc. doesn’t exactly translate to success now. There’s a reason most of best coaches in recent years (aside of Carlisle, Kerr and in Kerr case he also is falling out) are younger coaches.
He was an ideal leader of big personalities. He also identified (along with KG we’ve learned) that a young,unknown Rondo and Perkins were the best compliments. Many would be tempted to pair more experienced players (even vet min like Scott pollard).
No. I won’t talk about anything pre 2008.
But in 2008 he did a pretty good job with the line ups in most of the playoffs, like yeah he had the big 3 but around them he didn’t hesitate to bench Rondo for House and Cassell when needed, to go with Powe over Perkins when they needed more mobility or to play smaller with Posey. Nothing crazy but he did well.
2009 they over performed in the playoffs without KG
2010 maybe you can argue that he did nothing to adjust when the Lakers cross matched Fisher onto Ray and Kobe onto Rondo after game 2, but they were really running on fumes later in the series
2011 and 2012 it became just too hard for them to score on Miami with Pierce and KG really having declined as shot creators.
Like I wouldn’t say he did some sort of crazy job, but he did well, younger guys that didn’t turn out to be some awesome players helped them too in those years
That still seems generous. They undoubtedly had the best team in the NBA that season, won their division by 25 games, and finished 7 games ahead of DET as the 1 seed.
Even then, they got pushed to 7 games against the 37-45 Hawks in the first round and barely escaped LeBron’s Cavs in the second, winning G7 by 5. For as successful as that team was in 2008, it didn’t have a single easy playoff series, and crediting Doc for roster management in such a situation doesn’t make sense.
“ it didn’t have a single easy playoff series” they destroyed a pretty great Lakers team
Winning in 6 isn’t destroying
In 2012 he actually used KG as a center, and combined with Rondo playmaking KG averaged 19, 10, at 36 y.o., not that bad. Celtics lost to Miami with prime LeBron in game 7 and only because of Bosh returning from the injury. I think he’s just too old-school for the modern game.
I’m not sure he deserves credit for that, like Brandon Bass was just SO much better then any option they had left at center
It’s amazing he got hired by the 76ers right after blowing the third 3-1 series lead of his career while his team held a double digit lead in every one of the 3 consecutive losses.
The Bucks situation was slightly more understandable at the time as Griffin had lost the locker room (in spite of the team record) and they needed to bring in someone ASAP that the players would respect.
Every time Giannis pouts, they do something shortsighted, so yeah, that tracks.
didnt the 08 celtics almost lose to the hawks or something and that wouldve been considered a crazy upset?
his Celtics team that won that year hold the record for most games played to win an NBA championship.
beat Hawks in 7 (round 1) beat Cavs in 7 (semis) beat Pistons in 6 (ecf) beat Lakers in 6 (finals)
it’s almost like they won despite his shit coaching
Bing Bing Bing.
Doc has always been terrible in the playoffs. We’ve all seen it.
Celtics should’ve won one more and had the chance to do so
Firm believer they should’ve had a threepeat. KG injury the next year, and then Perk tearing his ACL the year after in the finals (plus 15 free throws for the Lakers in the 4th quarter in game 7 in the worst officiated game I’ve ever watched).
They did struggle in that Hawks series but they had been amazing in the regular season, it was sort of a speed bump. Remember they won the championship in their first year together, that’s pretty abnormal.
Doc did a very good job with that Celtics team from 08-12. Winning in year one of a configuration isn’t easy. Staying competitive in 09 without KG isnt easy. That 10 team had no business almost winning the title. 11 team was pretty mediocre. That same team almost beats Prime Bron in 12.
Those teams alone make the juice worth the squeeze. For all of the anger at Doc, you show me the time he had the best team in the league roster wise and didn’t win. You guys stay killing Doc for maybe, maybe losing a round early.
I think the game has passed him by and he should go. But he’s had some pretty incredible bad luck injury wise if you really look into it. And yeah he pretty notably can’t stabilize a team in the process of choking but a lot of coaches cant do that.
Is he an all time coach? No. Is he as bad as this sub claim career wise? Also no. He’s just a fun punching bag.
I dont think anyone on this sub can say hes over rated when you don’t even know half of what he does lol. Players like him and he always elevates the teams hes been on in the past.
He’s actually a really good coach as long as you’re rooting for the other team.
Overrated
Doc rivers is overrated period. He has had so many chances with so much talent and I don’t associate him with winning. I can’t tell you what makes any of his teams special. At the end of the day all I think of when I hear the name is a voice that sounds like it hasn’t taken a breath without inhaling cigarette smoke and broken glass.
Like make a list of the talent he has had. Now ask yourself if it was a good job…
That really wasn’t the question. Specifically, regarding his time coaching the Celtics, was he overrated?
Yes. They stated he’s overrated period. So that includes the Celtics, Jazz fan. wtf
that utah education
He had KG one of the most aggressive PF in the history of the game. He had ray Allen one of the best 3 pt shooters ever at that point. He had Paul Pierce the epitome of a franchise star. And on top of that he had Rajon who was a top 3 PG mixing it up with the likes of Nash and Paul.
Now come back and tell me a coach like Phil or Greg couldn’t make a dynasty out of that.
He has underperformed in every star studded situation.
He won in 08, would never win in 09, went to game 7 of the Finals against the defending champs in 10, and by 2011 his best players were 33-35 years old going up against the Heatles. What years are better coaches winning it all? Are you going to argue that Phil would take the Celtics roster and beat the Heat and Mavs? That Pop would take the roster and beat the Heat and the Thunder? Each lost against those teams you know. You need to be arguing that the Celtics were better than the Lakers and the Spurs for this to make any sense.
Idk but i hate him
Pretty sure he somehow parlayed a COTY award from Orlando into the Celtics job and then people were calling for his head just before the KG/Allen trades. Real “sliding doors” moment for him as that goofball would write. He would have kept on getting jobs but that one title does a ton of work for his reputation. I don’t think it’s a knock on him necessarily. I think it proves how much has to come together to get a title.
He also, unfortunately for him, has teams of guys that are not universally loved: Pierce, Paul, Embid, etc. Just kind of a big ol’ bucket of insufferability on the parts of everyone involved. He’s not over or under rated, but he does have a lot of gravity…
He’s on the top 15 greatest coaches ever list basically because of this tenure lol. What do you think?
He’s been around for a long time and managed to be part of a couple of important parts in history of NBA.
The celtics 08 are the only time he won a title and it was despite of him, not because of him that team won. They should’ve won more.
You can absolutely name 15 coaches better than doc
Red Auerbach | Larry Brown | Chuck Daly | Red Holzman | Phil Jackson | K.C. Jones | Steve Kerr | Don Nelson | Gregg Popovich | Jack Ramsay | Pat Riley | Jerry Sloan | Erik Spoelstra | Lenny Wilkens | Rick Adelman | Kundla
Thats 16
Trust me bro, I agree. I loathe Glenn the most out of anyone in this sub. It’s a fucking joke he’s on that list but whatever.
I think his major contribution was just navigating the egos on the team. Gameplay wise I think a lot of people would say they were struggling for what people would’ve assumed would be easier series a lot of the time given the amount of talent on the team so their actual game plans and adjustments probably were “good enough” rather than great
Yes duh
I think Doc has been overrated in all of his tenures.
He managed that team well for sure, combined with Thibs running the D it was a recipe for success
Prevailing fan opinion was that he was an awful coach pre big3. During the 08 season, he was able to get quality assistant coaches to join his team including Tom Thibodeau and Sam Cassell. That team focused on defense, led by KG and Thibs.
Overall, with talented players on the Celtics, his high points were managing egos and out of timeout plays, which are certainly important for a head coach. His low point on those teams was making any mid-game adjustments and game planning, so in playoff series where the other team altered their strategy, the Celtics were almost guaranteed to lose. However they would usually bounce back and adjust to the tactic in the following game, so given enough time to plan he can find a counter, but as the record shows he is vulnerable to losing a series if the other team thinks multiple steps ahead.
Yes. He had PP, KG, Allen, and a rising Rondo. He had Thibs on his defensive coach.
He had 3 All-stars in an era where that hadn’t become common. And actually good All-stars, none of this entire start 5 ATL Hawks being all star.
When you compare the rosters of the Celtics and the Cavs in ‘08, it’s pretty remarkable that the Cavs took them to seven games with Delonte West, Wally Sczcerbiak, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas as their #s 2, 3, & 4 leaders in minutes behind the 23 yr old LeBron. Just a season before, the Big 3 of the Spurs had swept them– though admittedly that series was closer than it looked, with the last two games going down to the wire. Still, for as often as I see Boston fans saying that Big 3 was better than the Spurs’ Big 3, one single championship for a roster that loaded is relatively meager.
Yeah. That team was the most talented in the league and the probably should have won another title
I remember people calling Doc the best coach in the league as recently as 2019 when he lead the undermanned clippers to a 6-game loss to the KD warriors. There was always talk of him being a bad X’s and O’s coach but I think it was the bubble when his reputation really soured. He’s also always gotten more love from players and media than fans.
Anyway, I think those Celtic teams basically performed up to expectations when you take everything into consideration. They only had healthy MVP-level KG for one year when they won the title. He injured his knee the next year and was never really the same player.
Is that a trick question? See, Thibodeau Tom.
Celts lost a first round playoff series in 2005 (before KG) with homecourt advantage. Otherwise, Celts have no true blemishes… People knock Doc sometimes because some series Celtics won went long, but Celts still win. And otherwise, he lost a lead against the Magic in 2009 when KG was out for the playoffs that was not Doc’s fault & he lost the 2010 Finals game 7 when Celtics had had the series lead, and this was also not Doc’s fault.
He did a very good job with the Celtics
It didn’t seem like that at the time. I liked that he would run a real inbounds play to try and get a clutch bucket, instead of just give it to a star and iso.
Yes lol
Not if you go off his record and accomplishments during that time
History is so interesting. Doc Rivers was so close to getting fired before the big 3 was formed.
I’d say the championship completely flipped the narrative, but maybe not the truth of the man.
Bill Simmons used to regularly write about how it was time for Doc to go: Grantland throwback
https://grantland.com/features/goodbye-doc-hello-greg/
He was always overrated as a coach. He lucked into that situation and has used it for his benefit for decades now. It’s been crazy to see.
He has always been a below average coach.
No, he didn’t become “overrated” until afterwards.
Was the coach overrated on the most overrated team in the last two decades? Yeah probably
Oh cool, we’re doing the “coach is overrated because he had good talent” thing again. Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson are the two moat overrated coaches in NBA history, I guess
He has the sixth most wins in NBA history and a ring. Every single coach with 1000 wins is in the HOF except for Doc and Rick Carlisle. Can’t wait for this sub to lose its collective shit when he gets inducted into the hall of fame