Yep - Jokic needs to stop trying to be a team first player - and switch to being a scorer full time instead if he ever wants to win another MVP. The narrative has been cast. Triple Doubles and assissts don’t matter if someone scores more than you do.

Carrying basically the entire load of your team doesn’t matter.

Put an insanely good scorer on a team with an elite defense and that’s what is going to get you them MVP votes.

I’m not even trying to shit on SGA, dudes amazing, everyone wishes they could have him on their team, like no disrespect to him, I just truly believe OKC could lose SGA and still be a playoff team built around that defense and if Denver lost Jokic they’re nothing.

Against a team that’s entire gameplan is creating turnovers. It was incredibly impressive to watch.

And a game winner

How dare you be a wholesome fan of actual basketball and not disrespecting other candidates?!

This era is awesome

It’s a shame they don’t try in the all star game, that line up is crazy and would give the USA line up problems.

Great game awful league.

Giannis has no business being there

Jaylen Brown.

It’s peak MVP discussion time, playoffs getting closer

reddit mental health warning messages flying like bullets in the wild west

edit: thank you for the warning kind stranger!

Hornets on this list I can’t believe this is my life

Having Wemby as your Top 2 is a fair take, but arguing Luka (or Jokic) can’t be ranked higher is pure homerism

I just don’t see how anyone can rank Luka higher than Wemby right now

It’s entirely reasonable to have Luka over Wemby. Wemby has been better when he plays, but Luka has played 29% more minutes. Value comes from both rate and volume, and Luka edges past Wemby when you consider both.

For example, Luka is slightly ahead of Wemby in both EPM WAR and LEBRON WAR.

Every minute an MVP-level player plays adds value, and Luka has played a lot more minutes than Wemby. And it’s not because Wemby was sitting in blowouts; it’s because he was on a minutes restriction to start the season and has played fewer games.

Because his offense is not there yet, if you want to have him #2 for MVP because of team record that’s fine but he’s not better than Jokic or Luka yet.

It really feels like people ate up the whole “offense is not just points” thing as if SGA/Jokic/Luka aren’t this generations best scorers, playmakers or even both. Wemby doesn’t have that kinda impact yet.

Spurs got gifted a super team by silver by having top 4 picks 3 years in a row

Spurs are insanely deep and win consistently without Wemby. Hell the spurs beat the lakers without wemby.

• 500 more minutes played
• Leads the league in scoring by far
• 4th in assists
• Has had more critical injuries to his teammates (LeBron has missed 21 games and Reaves has missed 26 games. Lakers are very top heavy so this kills the help Luka has)
• Absolutely willing his team to a top seed at the most important time of the season
• Spurs are 10-5 without Wemby. Lakers are 6-6 without Luka.

Maybe because Luka is averaging 33/8/8? Kind of an important part of the mvp convo is the state line, not just winning

It’s clear why some think that - one team is still good without their guy. One team is pretty bad without their guy. Some people use that to factor their opinion, some people use that plus counting stats, some people use other stats like defense or ratings, some people use arbitrary regular season matchups. There’s no set criteria. All have valid reasons to go either way and nothing is egregious among the group.

People need to stop acting like their made up personal criteria is the end all be all criteria. Theres tons of it that is used differently

I will admit, it does seem like Wemby constantly talking about being MVP has seemingly made Luka and Jokic kind of pissed lol. They’ve been having great games as of late.

Luka has been player of the week twice as often as wemby. I actually think the case that luka is better than wemby is quite easy. Wemby is not the guy carrying the spurs. He’s terrific, but its not like they are nothing without him.

I agree that Wemby should be 2nd (I think there is some argument for 1st given his defense being legitimately “greatest to ever do it” level, but Shai should win it given his offensive efficiency - I really don’t want to hear Shai’s defense brought into it when directly compared to Wemby because it’s just different stratospheres of defensive impact), but still having Jokic at 3 and not Luka is absurd to me given the last month

Because Luka is more important to his team than Wemby is to SA. Wemby is the better player, but he isn’t the MVP.

Because he’s the highest scorer in the league, maybe the best passer in the league, been way improved on defense, and his team would be fighting for the play in without him? 

OKC and SA are top 3 teams in the West without their candidates. I think it’s a 3 man race, and Viktor is almost 10 pts a game behind Luka and 5 assists behind on offense. So there’s a choice, all of these guys are having unbelievable seasons. 

Luka is the best player in the league. Wemby will be a first round exit

If you only value winning, then you can’t. But if you look at the stats then Luka is better

We can’t be mad at delusional Spurs fans. You will get a reality check in the first round. So will Zack Lowe. All these guys struggle to stay relevant and just can’t be relevant.

Luka fans are going to be mad but I just don’t see how anyone can rank Luka higher than Wemby right now.

Yes the Lakers had a good run recently but the Spurs have been on an even better run since February 1st and vs better competition too with wins vs the Celtics, Pistons twice, Hornets, Rockets, etc. and Wemby has been consistent throughout especially with his elite defense.

It’s not a team record award. It’s an individual award where your team success needs to reach a certain threshold, but as long as you do, it’s just about the criteria you care about.

Luka simply doesn’t have a case over SGA or Wemby. I wouldn’t take him over Jokic either, but there’s a case to be made for Luka being 3rd. It says a lot about how great the top of the league is that Luka is rightly 3rd or 4th in the MVP race.

SGA should win MVP with relative ease, imo. People can hate the guy and his style all they want. He’s the best player in the league the past 2 years. You’re not beating OKC, when he’s at his best and his worst is still at least 20PPG.

Luka fc is the worst ever. Lakers move meant that we won’t be able to escape them either this sub is basically lakersv2

Lakers were a mess all season until this month and I DONT CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS defense has to matter. He can not be above Wemby or Shai until he has an at least “fine” season defensively.

Nailed this. I think Luka has had moments and I think Jokic has as well. That being said shai has been great all year long and he is on the best team in the NBA.

Wemby deserves the second place vote because I think all things considered he has been the second most valuable player. I think wemby needs a bit more offense and offensive consistency to be the mvp. He’s likely DPOY and is top 20 in scoring so it’s definitely close. SGA is averaging 31 and has been a historically reliable scorer. Two really good cases for mvp.

I am curious about if wemby was at say 27 ppg if that would be enough to swing it. Seemingly there are quite a few games where he just isn’t carrying the offense for the spurs by choice. Interesting if that would have swung things

I’m with you. I understand Zach’s reasons for giving up his vote, but people like him not having a vote is a net negative.

Does anyone even know how the NBA decides on the voters? There are thousands of media people, how did they determine that this is the 100 or so people who will get the honor?

I guess what I’m wondering is, what is the criteria that would result in, “Yes, Kendrick Perkins should have a vote.”

More like since ‘16 Curry.

Nah, Jokic was out when he got injured, even if the team had a better season, It would have been over at that point.

Shai isn’t a great defender lol

First half Jokic was the front runner, but he has not been the same since coming back from injury. Turnovers are up and scoring is down. Still a top 3 player this season, but just doesn’t have the case SGA or Wemby have.

Considering he’s leading the league in ast, his TO/gm avg is entirely reasonable

I think it’s Wemby’s award next season unless OKC wins another ring, then Shai has a boosted case.

Agree, but I think Wemby will get both MVP and DPOY. He needs to stay healthy though.

I think Wemby easily wins it as Shai and Jokic probably get a bit of voter fatigue and Wemby is building up his narrative for next year

Highly doubt voters are gonna give SGA 3 straight

Defensive EPM is largely just a team stat, it’s pretty bad at differentiating between individuals.

People who say ‘just look at the advanced stats’ need to understand what the advanced stats are actually doing, which isn’t always possible. Weighting can have a huge effect. Back when RAPTOR was around, before FiveThirtyEight shut down, RAPTOR loved Jokic’s defense. RAPTOR valued steals from bigs a lot, and Jokic has always had good hands in the passing lanes. RAPTOR also valued high-volume defense. The more shots you defended, the better a defender it assumed you were. But that’s almost the opposite of reality for bigs. Elite defenders at the center position deter opponent shots – we see that with Wemby and we’ve seen it for the last decade with Rudy. Dudes get to the rim and don’t even look at it. But because Jokic constantly got challenged, he got to rack up lots of shots-defended, and in 2021-22 that was enough for RAPTOR to think he was a top-three defender in the league.

Other stats – BPM is this way, I think, and VORP – basically say “bigs don’t pass much. Therefore assists from the center position are more valuable than assists from the guard position.” That might have been true in the 1990s or early 2000s, but it’s absolutely not now. Bigs handle the ball more than they ever have before. Inverted PnRs are common. DHOs are a staple action in almost every offense. I’m not sure metrics have kept up.

LEBRON, On/Off, DARKO Box DPM have Wemby ahead, and EPM has them about equal.

Wemby about to pass him in EPM ✌️

you should do your research before spouting

On-off does 

it’s pretty damn close right now. Jokic +8.3, Wemby +8.2

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm/actual

Fr. The point of the ballot having five voting spots is purely meant for tiebreakers, making an argument over who you personally have at second or third or whatever really shouldn’t occupy as much discourse as it has lately

I feel you. I hate when people say shit like (throwing out a random name) “Jaylen Brown is in the mvp conversation.”

You’re not in the conversation if the conversation is like:

Person 1: Will Jaylen Brown be MVP?

Person 2: No, but he’s…

If anyone is watching the games and doesn’t have Luka in their top 3, then they are clearly not watching any games.

None of the four average 36mpg

Nuggets were 10-6 without Jokic, and has had worse winning percentage since he came back from injury lol.

Winning is the “value” being measured. OKC has remained on top all season despite also being in the top 3 teams in minutes missed by players due to injury.

Wemby’s argument is essentially that he believes defense is underrated, which is probably true… but it also doesn’t change the fact that Offense will always be better than Defense. Why? Because you can be the best defender the world has ever seen, the offensive player could still just hit their shot. Offense > Defense.

Jokic is putting up historic numbers, unfortunately when he came back from his injury, it took a few games for him to seem that same historic player from before the injury. He lost momentum.

Luka is basically the opposite of Jokic, in that he began the year being a chucker. High scoring on high volume, but low efficiency. A lot of other years, Luka would be the front-runner in MVP, but this year it’s hard because SGA isn’t just a high scorer on high volume, he does it with historic efficiency. He’s having Jokic efficiency as a guard.

People undersell and underrate SGA’s case, know why? Because he’s the only one that hasn’t once mentioned the award, or has been asked about it. I honestly think he doesn’t care if he wins it, he just wants to play his best night in and night out. He only cares about the things he can control. And honestly, that helps his case in my opinion. (Kings don’t have to tell anyone they’re the King)

SGA is also underrated defensively (how quickly this sub forgets that he literally has a block on Wemby, a dude literally a foot taller than him) He isn’t bodying up defensively like you’d see McDaniels or Dort do, instead he’s a ball deflecter/stealer. If you get to his hip, he’ll immediately get behind you and harass the dribble. Why? Because this gives more space for his team to surround the ball-handler and smother it, distracting the player and allowing him to get a good chance at getting the ball cleanly.

Watch some OKC games, and you’ll see that he’s actually an insanely smart defender, because he adds a lot of turnovers to the opposing team’s game stats. He gets his hands into passing lanes and makes sure to always poke for the ball. He also is rarely in foul trouble.