I’ve been watching basketball since the early 80s and I remember back then seeing clips of old-timey basketball from the 1950s and imagining “If the game has come this far in 30 years, how will it look in another 30?”

And this is the answer. Increased levels of shooting (even centers are deadly from 3) a very underrated increase in ball handling (even forwards and centers can keep the ball on a string), better role players due to increased talent, better spacing, better movement, more consistent effort and increased pace.

The international game has increased the talent pools from millions to billions (almost every team has awesome international players). The longevity of players has also helped keep the concentration of talent higher. Like, imagine if Bird and Magic’s prime had been extended the way Durant and Curry and LeBron’s has. We could have had an NBA where Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Kobe were going at each other at a high level.

The game/league can still be improved but I’m absolutely loving where the NBA is right now and am enjoying it immensely.

But that dog?? Did he measure the dog in someone?? The amount of dog to galvanise the troops. The dog meter is the most important factor. That doggggdogggg

Jokic giving bird and wemby their flowers over a 2 day span

Icon

Yes this is extremely obvious that today’s players are way better than previous generations. The guys in 2050s will be way better than today’s lol. That’s how it works

You put Jokic/Curry/Wemby/Durant/Lebron/Giannis in the 90s and it gets ugly for the oldheads.

The most obvious difference is in the role players. In the 90s you could be solely any of the following:

• Rebounder
• Shooter
• Tall and trash (give fouls out)
• Defender who couldn’t play a single lick of offense
• Small microwave scorer

None of these players types exist beyond g-league callups and 15th men on the roster.

You drop Matt Ryan/Matt Thomas or Mac McClung/Malachai Flynn in those eras and they have 10+ year careers.

The problem with this is that nobody accounts for The Red Queen: everything else gets better around you simultaneously, so you are running on a treadmill. That’s why all these discussions about “X is better now than 30 years ago!” are so intellectually inane: you aren’t accounting for context. How much better (or worse) than you are your competitors? is truly the only thing that matters, in large part because it’s the only fair way we can measure anything.

He’s right, people criticizing the old school game are dumb af, they don’t get the point. Everything gets better with time. No sh Larry bird would probably get cooked today if he timetraveled . But if he had the same training, diet, shoes, etc as the kids today? He would be unstoppable

Here is the subtle difference between Jokic and KD. Yes Basketball has evolved in many areas but the players are still just as great. They played to the max given their available training methods, lack of computer intelligence and technology overall. Jokic isn’t saying that Bird played against plummers and wouldn’t be viable in today‘s NBA, he said that the sport itself evolved. KD on the other hand just shat on our past legends calling them no good.

Basketball has widened globally and matured enough with time to face the same challenges as football (or soccer to you guys).

Were Messi and Ronaldo better than Pelé? Of fucking course! Pelé first played a World Cup in 1958! Hell, where would we be if they hadnt?! BUT

How many decades until you first had a player comparable to Pelé? How many years ahead was he?
How many decades until his level of the game became common place? Heck. Id argue it still hasnt arrived!

Nowadays players get to the training grounds, get a full body check-up (with thermal cameras and everything), give in their sleep data collected on their watches, provide a brief summary of the last day, get a FULL blood scan, go to their nutritionist-backed breakfast (with individually decided diet), to then start training after the results of the bloodwork are in, to decide the proper schedule for the day. That is not Real Madrid, that is Palmeiras, in Brazil.

Back then, Pelé would “work through the pain” after playing on a hole-riddle swamp of a field. That ALONE makes up a massive difference.

Garrincha back in the 50s and 60s could dribble any player, making a fool of anyone. He would do magic… with the ball firmly on the ground. Decades later, players would develop the same technique but with the ball moving (See: “Pedalada”). Were they better? Sure. But the game evolves. Four decades later finally seeing his technique becoming more common place indicates how awesome he was.

So, to better analyse eras, you gotta ask yourself: “How many years AHEAD of his time, was this guy?”. If you can still argue that a guy, four decades removed, could be a top 15 player DISREGARDING the evolution of the game, then that is GOAT material.

Professional sports, at the end of the day, is about entertainment. That’s why they get paid what they do. While the skill, strategy, and complexity can (and have) advanced, it doesn’t necessarily make it “better” or more entertaining.

IMO, hyper optimization has harmed many forms of entertainment.

Sports without absolute metrics don’t get better, they just get different.

Uhh looking around at the state of everything in the world there’s not a lot I can say is definitively better than 30 years ago.

And yet with way better technology, reffing is noticeably worse.

There are a lot of things that are worse now than they were 30 years ago.

nuance gang wins again 💪💪💪💪😤😤😤😤

More players can shoot further away, but the rest of it being “better” is almost entirely rule changes. Literally every possession today would either be a travel, carry, or offensive foul in the past.

The increased spacing also makes everything else easier on offense. Larger passing lanes, help is further away, etc.

Nokia Jokic

(3310 goat)

Teams optimise for winning.

Fans want more entertainment.

If the rules are badly designed, these objectives can do diverge.

Thus a sport can be both better and worse.

Bc Jokic said it, ppl will finally start accepting this fact

It does modernize, but not necessarily at the rate people claim. For example, teams are shooting 78.3% on free throws this year. They show 76.8% in 1989. So better, but only by a bit. I think a lot of what we see as more skill is referees allowing traveling and offensive fouls that they would’ve called previously, so you see more scoring and “impressive moves.”

loosening the rules and 3pt bombing accounts for 90% of the change. if you took 90s all stars vs 2026 all stars on an open run playing all 1s it’d be a belting. but the fact is that the game is kinda fundamentally busted mathematically and that is being taken advantage of so much better today

Cook those nostalgia merchants. Thats my tubby

This seems like a logical fallacy…

Horses better too? Like does Jokic have a better horse than Genghis khan?

i think the physicality/rules arguement is silly because no matter what the rulebook says the level of competition at any given time remains the same. and wouldnt a guy like giannis love to impose more “physicality” if he was allowed to?

HGH is a hell of a drug.

“If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants” Isaac Newton

This is what Jokic is saying

Yeah I’m say no. Current NBA is dog shit.

I think the greats will be great no matter what era they play in, provided that they also grew up in that era. Now if someone from 2026 plays in a different era with different rules, then it’s another conversation.

All this does is make older players even more impressive since they didn’t have the advantages of today’s players. Jordan 7 was the first shoe he released after being a champion. Jordan 1 - Jordan 6 are fashion shoes now, only people hooping in them are for style points.

I use this type of example all the time when comparing eras. Like technically, it would be difficult for Einstein to compete with modern scientists with only his chalkboard.

I think the average skill level of the individual players is objectively higher.

But whether or not it is more enjoyable for the consumer is a different story. The fact of the matter is a lot of fans like the various styles of past eras (even as recent as the 2010’s) better than the homogeneity of today’s game.

So we really have to ask ourselves what we mean when we say basketball is better.

Nokia Jokic

With the constant three-point shooting, the flopping, carrying the ball, traveling on almost every shot, No defense. The game is definitely not better.

Two things can be true at the same time. It is more modern now. But not more enjoyable for some.

Some.

Modernization is different than being better, it works only on technology (and even in that type, is not absolutely true i.e things where more durable and repairable back then) so his whole premise is flawed

Nah it’s worse now

I wish this were true but in 2009 the NBA changed the traveling rule to explicitly allow players to take two steps after gathering the ball, rather than just one-and-a-half. Completely changing the game to the point where it’s no longer even watchable. Losing? Just turn into a running back to the hoop. You’ll either get fouled or score. Every single time. This unstoppable move is even more exaggerated by taller players like Wembanyama and has completely ruined the league.

The interview is excellent It has an English translation.

If you gave the players from previous eras todays training/nutrition, wide open interpretations of carries and gather steps/traveling they would do just fine.

It used to be pretty simple, a carry is a carry and a travel is a travel there wasn’t so much justification and analyzing for BS on the court. Lots of moves from today would just flat out not be legal back then and that’s a fact.

Phones are considerably worse than they were 30 years ago. In terms of call quality, the fanciest smart phone can’t hold a candle to a wall mounted landline from 1993

One of the biggest improvement is the position of the center.

Im not talking about the best of the best at that position.

But in the past, you had people just being tall and stand in the paint to defend to say it hatefully. Your biggest feature was basically SIZE.

Im glad bigs have now at least being able to shoot the ball.

Cellphones WERE better 20 years when they were built to last.

Basketball is made of chips. Invention and maturation of the ARM architecture revolutionized basketball by allowing drastically reduced form factors.

Do you know how many chips are in a Jokic or a Luka? The answer might surprise you.

This is why GOAT debates never amount to anything. 

The NBA during the 90s was a special time, there were no podcasts or legalized gambling with every other commerical pushing parlays and other stupid shit.

So George Mikan wouldn’t completely body Wemby?

WOW. Very insightful.

I always think in terms of military. Like, Napoleon and the Romans had a kick ass armies in their time period, but would be destroyed by modern armies. It does not take away from the accomplishments, but it just shows how silly it is to compare different time periods.

It shouldn’t be a relevant question whether today’s game is faster, more advanced, etc.. Obviously it is. The problem is what do we do with that if we want to evaluate players from different generations vs each other? Jokic says Bird, if he was given the context and resources of today’s game, would easily adapt and figure it out and I tend to agree.

One point that people seem to never bring up is that the literal rules have also changed to supercharge the speed of the game. But it’s interesting to think about how today’s players would have to change with the rules and context of the 80s or whatever. Most dudes would still be really good, but they would have to change their games.

Ah, the Stan Van Gundy corollary

I think this is true in regards to how teams played and role players, but not star players.

I think about the 04 Pistons and the only starter that seems ‘outdated’ is Big Ben. You’re telling me Chauncey wouldn’t be able to adjust and play in today’s game or Rip Hamilton? (if he stepped back to the 3pt line lol)