[Hoop Collective] Tim MacMahon: “J-Kidd’s acting skills have drastically improved in the many years since then. He convinced millions of people that he was absolutely shocked that Luka Doncic got traded in the middle of the night.”
Really underrating Jason Kidd’s acting skills.
I can’t even be mad at that though. Close game with just over a minute left and got his team a technical free throw.
Kidd put up 11/8/7 that quarter to will the Mavs to victory.
It was just the second 7/7/7 quarter of the PBP era – no one had one in the 10 years before or after that game. It’s still the only 7/7/7 fourth quarter in the PBP era.
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Edit: just noticed that Jokic did it twice in the same game last year!
last month!
That’s a year ago, fam
Ah damn. Still!
His acting repertoire also includes accidentally spilling his drink
https://youtu.be/vEqU7JHkfu0?si=zlJKT1qPGoKCIYc7
Yeah, the clip is talking about how his acting skills have improved since the drink-spilling shenanigans.
Haha yeah you’re right. I didn’t watch the clip with sound on and I totally skimmed over the first sentence in the title of this post, just thinking they were complimenting his acting skills
That was resourceful thinking on the fly, though. Lol
And beating his wife
And nobody questioned why a head coach had a Jack & Coke on the court??
I always thought it was an iced tea or some shit
A better question is why wouldn’t you have one?
This shit is still so incredibly funny to me
The “hit me” being supremely obvious is amazing
Jayhawk legend
Hubie dissecting the play like it was a game winner is hilarious. Miss the dude.
Lol between this and the drink spill everyone knows J Kidd has broadway potential.
Thought this would be the video of him dropping the glass on the court when he was coaching
I’ve always said he deserved an Oscar.
The way he pretended to spill that drink. Anthony Hopkins would be jealous
The point Tim is making is much bigger than that. Everyone in the Mavs organization has managed to persuade the Mavs fanbase that there was only a single man in the world who was responsible for trading away arguably the best player in the history of the franchise (excepting Dirk).
The reality is that there’s no way all of the team’s leadership wasn’t aware and consulted extensively before the move. Dumont obviously ultimately made the call and Kidd clearly knew it was happening before it happened.
Nobody is saying Nico was just a fall guy. He was obviously the principal architect. But to argue that he did it in a vacuum and that nobody knew enough to even throw their body on the tracks is just absurd. Kidd knew, Dumont knew, and Finley knew. And they either endorsed the plan or they didn’t object to it enough to matter.
The entire Mavs organizational leadership did not want to pay Luka the supermax extension last summer. They clearly had some reasons they’re not fully disclosing. But the organizational hostility to Luka had been brewing for a couple years prior to the trade.
But Kidd’s greatest Littlefinger moment was trying to forcibly take control of the Bucks front office, finding out his coup d’état failed miserably and surviving to tell the tale.
It didnt take much acting because the Nico lone sniper narrative prevailed and continues to prevail.
To be fair, trading Luka wasn’t necessarily the unthinkable part. It was the return on trading Luka
A lot of vocal people in this sub think trading Luka is unthinkable. The Nico discourse in this sub was insane for at least 6 months. He did poorly in the trade. No doubt. He let his Luka frustrations blind him to reality. Unquestioned.
But Im always gunna snipe at how he was talked about in this sub. Because it was outlandish.
And tbf to the people I’m criticizing, I’m pretty critical of Luka and his archetype and see somewhat what Nico was going for and even I normally end up back at its pretty unthinkable to trade Luka. He’s a top 5. At worst top 8 player if you get really critical. You’re just kinda tied to him once he’s on your team and there’s way worse fates in life.
Nico was a basketball terrorist. I legit haven’t watched a game since the trade. It literally sucked the fun of basketball out of me.
I would honestly hate the NBA forever if the team I follow did what the Mavs did.
I totally get it.
You don’t even want to watch flaggs rookie season ? You’re a pretty fair weather fan . The guy you’re mad at is gone , why punish the guys left trying to pick up the pieces .
That’s like the opposite of a fair weather fan lmao.
Fan with Luka but won’t watch when they tank ? How is it not ?
I’ve been a fan for almost 30 years and have been through good times and bad.
This one just really hurt me in a way I did not know basketball could. Just has not felt the same since.
He ain’t punishing anyone lmao
Then I guess you were a Luka fan, not a ball fan.
Imagine being a “ball fan” just not even caring about what happens to your favorite team. If y’all traded Scottie for someone much older, more injury prone, and worse; you’d be incensed too. If we traded Cade for James Harden or something, I’d hate the Pistons for years if not forever. Just bullshitting examples but I think you get the point.
That’s a wild thing to criticize someone for lmao.
Yeah, the Raptors have fortunately never been in the position to trade a young, exciting superstar, like a Vince Carter for example, for an aging, past his prime star like, I don’t know… an Alonzo Mourning-type. That would indeed be soul crushing, especially if that Mourning-type player didn’t want to come to Toronto. That would be really embarrassing
You mean the Vince Carter who was sitting games and vocally wanted off the team and hadn’t just brought the team to a Finals appearance? Give me a break it’s not even close to the same.
I mean I was watching and playing basketball for years before Luka had even picked up a ball. But yeah, I don’t know, something inside me died that day. Hard to explain why but I just really fucking cared and loved that team.
He was going to be our next Dirk. Superstar who actually wanted his whole career to be on the same team. How many other teams have a legend play for them that ends their whole career with that team like we would have had with Luka?
Nah we’re just sensible fans, Nico basically channelled his inner Billy King.
You UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES trade for a player nicknamed Street Clothes, Day to Davis, etc.
Nowhere in your comment do you acknowledge they had just made the Finals. Or that before Luka’s Christmas injury they were by any metric a title contender, having gone 14-3 in last 17 games. Luka was set to return from injury a week after Nico traded him. It’s just insane to pretend trading him at that moment made any sense whatsoever.
What about my comment leads you to believe I’m on Nico’s side in trading Luka?
Literally in my comment, I say even I – and I consider myself biased towards thinking its harder to build around Luka (not impossible obviously) – have to acknowledge trading Luka is unthinkable when you run through scenarios because he’s elite at basketball.
I genuinely don’t understand the disconnect in what I said and how you read my comment.
I dont necessarily need to acknowledge anything specifically because Im already acknowledging Nico made a mistake and traded off emotion rather than having a realistic plan. But even if he had a realistic plan, it probably goes South too.
Trading a player like Luka is really damn hard even if you maximize it.
That was the point I was conveying.
So what problem do you have with the Nico discourse? Sounds like you think it was a terrible decision
Well my first comment on this thread for starters. Nico lone sniper theory. So there’s that.
Theres also a tendency in this sub to think because you are right you can talk to and about people any way you like.
I can suffer from this as well but just because your point starts from a valid place doesn’t mean you arent greatly overexaggerating it or getting toxic.
Now everything Nicos ever done was either blind luck or Dennis Lindsey did it.
Like yeah Nico did a really dumb thing. But there’s no nuance when you try to talk about Nico even outside of that dumb thing. Its all he’s really dumb and was always really dumb. Forever and ever. Amen.
If you want to give Nico credit for the past, fine. The Luka trade was horrendously bad and it was his idea. It’s so bad that who cares about some nice role player trades?
All the reporting is very clear that it was Nico’s idea and it was based on him not liking Luka or his approach to the game. It was stupid at the time and it ended up aging even worse, even after he got the luckiest thing in the world in getting Flagg.
Kidd probably knew about it, but it wasn’t his idea. Ownership just approved it because they trusted Nico completely.
He’ll never get another job in basketball, but he’s a millionaire. He made the worst trade in the history of sports. Who cares if people are mean to him online
I care about how things are discussed online because its says something about who we are as a people when we think we are anonymous or coming from a “righteous” place.
This isnt a defense of Nico. It’s a repudiation of our inability to discuss things thoughtfully and with nuance when its easy not to, because the mob agrees.
You certainly don’t have to care. But Nico is no less human because he’s a millionaire or made a bad trade. And I think it says something about US how quickly we dehumanize these people over sports.
Nah the discourse about Niko over the last year was still completely valid. I still would never trade Luka, but I can understand the thinking. Fine. But trading him for an over 30 year old Anthony Davis that is known for being injured all the time (literally injured at the time of the trade) is still the worst trade in NBA history
He plays 65 games a year on average, he is not going to get more durable. Not worth 70 a year.
Im not talking about criticizing the trade. Im talking about the vitrol and acting as if he had the power to do this with no input from Kidd and ownership.
I’ll grant that maybe Kidd was in on the idea of trading Luka, but Nico’s crazy arrogance and borderline taunting of all the critics (basically everybody on earth) in the aftermath of the trade played a huge part in all of that. And that’s in addition to a slimy smear campaign of Luka that also followed the trade. And of course ownership signed off on it, but you’re talking about ownership that literally doesn’t know anything at all about basketball
You mean th guys whose responsibility is to created the roster made a decision related to creating a roster?
lone sniper is what a high school gamer would use as a frame of reference.
This guy had a million dollar job with a company worth. Billions, out in The real world. This didn’t occur in a comic book dude. 🙄
Hoop collective is a tough listen. Lots of whiny snippy jabs at each other
i used to think that too lol. i was like damn do they all hate each other and are just forced to work together? But i guess they’re actually friends and that’s just how they talk sometimes
If Fabled finds their quips hard to listen to, then the fact that all x3 are friends doesn’t change that
LOL I thought I was the only one thinking this. Lots of slight jabs it’s very weird
When you’ve been working with the same dudes and get along ok for a decade this is just how you end up talking to each other. You never wanted to be best friends initially and hardly ever hang out outside of work. You find them all slightly annoying. But life made you best friends anyway.
Yeah lowkey that’s my life right now. Trying to find real friends. Realizing all the ones I had were fake and forced due to proximity, life is funny that way lol
That’s literally the best part
That and when MacMahon goes on a sub 6 footer tangent
They do love to “well ackshully” each other
Funny, I tune in occasionally just to hear Bontemps get lit up.
Oh I completely disagree. I love how much they sound like old friends who also love the nba
They all hate basketball
It’s by far the best NBA pod out there. Number 2 is a distant second.
lol that’s fine for you to think, I prefer to get my content elsewhere
It’s great if you enjoy listening to alcoholics taking shots at everyone and complaining about their day. If you actually want to enjoy basketball and life in general there are many other podcast that are better like the Zach Lowe Podcast or Game Theory with Sam Vecenie.
lmao Windy is a soda guy, he’s a nice catholic guy from my area here. the other guys I wouldn’t be surprised but damn give them any chance and they’ll start bitching about something. it’s like their wives took their xbox cables away or something
It’s literally a bit on the show that Windy complains about his sleep schedule almost every episode. But yes, ESPN put the other guys on the pod because they like that type of programming obviously. When I first started watching ESPN it was the standard in sports entertainment and now it’s become pretty much a joke.
This is a nuts take
Not at all. They have by far the best chemistry. They have reporters that actually break news/deliver insight. McMahon is legitimately funny. Bontemps is one of the rare media members who will rip into teams and players. McMahon is also fairly critical. Windy is fat and happy nowadays compared to even a few years ago but he’s still okay.
Meanwhile, the rest of the NBA pods are really weak. Zach Lowe is completely cooked. Anodyne as hell, fat and happy at his success, aggressively monologuing over all his guests. He’s incredibly boring now.
Hollinger/Duncan would be the best, but it’s paywalled, and they release free episodes only every now and then. Nate Duncan has also dropped precipitously compared to his earlier days, and does too many low-hanging fruit topics. Danny Leroux is the worst, so Dunc’d On doesn’t do much of anything for me except for the 15 in 60s and the rare mock deadlines/offseasons.
What else is there? Dunker Spot: boring as hell with way too much WNBA. Thinking Basketball: Cody is incredibly annoying and together they are way too cute without being the least bit funny. Occasionally Ben can get on one and cover some interesting territory, but only occasionally.
Kevin O’Connor? Aggressively mid; can sometimes be decent depending on the guest. Russillo? Lol, get real. Fred Katz? Maybe, but I don’t subscribe to The Athletic so I couldn’t tell you for sure. Bill Simmons? Sometimes he’s pretty entertaining, but for decent NBA analysis, absolutely not. He’s a complete joke at that, although once in a blue moon he drops a gem.
Feel free to disagree, I don’t care, that’s what the downvote button is for.
Lowe was a good writer and writing forced him to organize his thoughts in a way that benefitted his podcast. Without the writing he’s washed
hollinger and duncan is the number one for me but as you said it sucks that we can only listen to them every other week. i like leroux too.
hoop collective can be rough to listen as they seem to talk about the same topic few weeks in a row but yeah, i like them too. i will never get the bontemps hate. ye he can be annoying when he’s in his mood, but if anyone listens to him regularly will know he is really really knowledable about the league and as you said doesnt shy away from criticizing teams and players. he can be annoying but you can get used to it.
will always love lowe, but yeah, he can go on a monologue for a few mintues, like he forgots theres a guest. the other day with pina i think he had like a 10 minute monologue about the spurs and the pistons chances for the title, where he repeated himslef 3 or 4 times lmfao. no matter that i will always listen to him. simmons is great if you dont take him seriously too much, miss him and russillo together.
i would also add mares&legler pod, they are also good. legler is always great to listen to.
Honestly I think the downvote button should be reserved for lazy and poorly thought out junk. If you take the time to explain yourself you don’t deserve to get buried. Kind of the worst reddit feature imo
This an insane take. All NBA is the best one, and then both Zach and Bill Simmons are way better than Hoop Collective. I’m a huge lover of everything Rusty Buckets does as well
I didn’t start watching until bill simmons left YouTube, but now I look forward to it
Where do you put Zach lowe
Veering awfully close to “unlistenable.” He just doesn’t give a shit about podcasting anymore, if he ever did, and it shows. Monologues incessantly, interrupts his guests ad nauseam, rudely shuts down conversations at his whim, AI reviews the NBA, offers zero insight anymore, and has become an arrogant talking head who refuses to say anything critical of anything or anyone except if it’s complete NBA consensus. And even then he’ll qualify anything he says a million times in order to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings.
When he has SVG or Legler on, he can still be decent. He respects those guys. Otherwise? Skip.
i’ve always thought it was obvious that trading Luka was a Jason Kidd AND Nico Harrison decision.
you think Kidd wasnt frustrated with Lukas defense and bitching to the refs every possession? i wouldn’t be surprised if he went to Nico and said This is a major problem
I would be genuinely stunned if he specifically wanted the FO to blow it up in the specific was that they did (getting a 32-year-old injury prone AD in return)
Yes this assumes Kidd was supportive of the trade package they received. I think it’s more likely that Nico presented him the trade when it was already in advanced secretive negotiations and Kidd saw that Nico was dead set on pulling it off, so he went along with it to keep his job. And it probably helped him rationalize it that he was already frustrated with Luka.
Just my guess
I think this is very likely the closest thing to the real truth. Kidd and Nico were unified in wanting to trade Luka and both knew it was being talked about. I also think Kidd likely had very little idea of how those talks were occurring and the specifics of what was going to be coming back until it was about to happen.
I imagine when he envisioned and advocated trading Luka, he assumed the return was going to be something like the Ant trade that Nico supposedly inquired about, without mentioning Luka was the offer mind you. A young superstar for a young superstar that just shifts where your talent is at. Not Nuking the entire roster and window.
I’m convinced Kidd could’ve been totally on board. It’s lopsided no matter how you spin it, and they should’ve gotten more in addition to AD, but you can kind of track their logic to rationalize the move.
AD, when truly healthy, is a top 10 (arguably, recently top 5) two-way talent. AD and Kyrie gives you star power offering elite playmaking, scoring, and interior defense. They liked some of the guys down the roster and thought it could be a “Kawhi to Toronto” situation I’m sure. I can see healthy AD, Kawhi, and guys like Playoff PJ leading Dallas deep into the postseason. It was a terrible return, but not a bad roster on paper.
The problems are 1. AD’s stats from the bench are the same as mine from the couch, and 2. Even if you think Luka’s play will fall off a cliff, the return should’ve been based on the perceived value at that time of a young superstar who just took a team to the Finals.
It was never gonna be a great deal, but there’s a world where they’re partially vindicated.
So you know this stuff but Kidd doesn’t?
Not sure where that’s suggested. I’m speculating. I think it’s plausible that Kidd rationalized the move instead of Nico being literally the only one out of 8 billion people who thought it was a good idea.
A head coach agreeing with the GM that they have a serious problem with their star player’s effort is not equivalent to him agreeing that they should trade one of the best players in the world for peanuts.
The most I’d say is Kidd agreeing with Nico about Luka’s lack of effort just made Nico feel justified in making one of the stupidest decisions in sports history.
It was ALWAYS the trade return being shit and not properly shopped that was the issue, not the fact that Luka got traded. KD to the Suns got back 4 unprotected picks in 2023 when he was 35 years old. That should have been the start of negotiations….. If there were actual negotiations.
Nico handed Luka to the Lakers on a silver platter with a shit return.
No, it was in fact insane to trade Luka when the team was fresh off the NBA Finals with a team built specifically around him at 25 years old, and when he’d established himself as a top 3-4 player in the world at worst.
It doesn’t make any sense to trade him in that moment. Maybe if the Mavs flamed out that postseason, but fresh off the Finals?! They were 14-3 in last 17 games before Luka’s Christmas injury and he was going to return in February. They had Quentin Grimes, Naji Marshall, and Klay Thompson giving them crazy depth. And they’d already beaten OKC in the playoffs the previous season.
Bingo. Great post
No, it was in fact insane to trade Luka when the team was fresh off the NBA Finals with a team built specifically around him at 25 years old, and when he’d established himself as a top 3-4 player in the world at worst
And was truly devoted to the city and the team.
No realistic return was worth Luka.
Somehow managed to alienate their legends of the future and past (Dirk clearly not happy with it) while fucking up their present. Reverse Christmas Carol
Yeah, having a superstar who wants to play for your team is hard to express with words. I would rather have had our guy in Luka stay with the team his whole career and not have won a ring than to have traded him and won a ring after he’s gone.
We got to see the evolution of Dirk go from the 06 finals and 07 heartbreaking first round loss to the 2011 redemption story. With Luka we just got the heartbreaking loss in the Finals without even given the chance for a redemption story.
This. If Mavs flamed out in the next season, it’d make sense. But traded him when they just made a Finals run was bizarre.
It’s both. It’s insanity that they traded him in the first place after multiple years of putting the perfect roster around him and coming off a Finals appearance. It’s also insane when you factor in the return but the second point can’t happen until you realize the first is quite possibly the dumbest decision a front office has ever made.
that’s because you haven’t counted Flagg
because it was something macmahon said, the weirdest fanbase in the league will never believe this.
Jason Kidd probably thought he was the reason they went to the Finals in spite of Luka’s weaknesses. Now he knows he’s nothing without his golden ticket.
I highly doubt Kidd thought that. He’s a former player, he knows how important superstar talent is.
Probably but I like spreading baseless accusations.
ownership has the final say on stuff like this, you know that.
I wouldnt be surprised if Kidd wanted to trade Luka and he was part of that decision, but I would be extremely surprised if he was part of the decision that the return is only AD and 1 first for the return.
Dude they JUST made the finals! And if we believe that the lottery is not rigged, there was no guarantee they would’ve gotten Flagg.
It’s a massive leap to go from “Luka’s defense is a problem” to “ship his ass out for anything you can get”.
Mavs fans have known for years that Lukas biggest problems are his conditioning, lack of defense, and constant whining to the refs. But these are problems that should either be coached away or mitigated by surrounding him with players that cover his flaws, which they succeeded at because they JUST MADE THE FINALS.
with all due respect i don’t want to get into a debate about Luka with someone with Slovenia flair, it’s just pointless
Hearing “Spilled his coke on the ground” as soon as I clicked this video had me like wtf lmaoo
JJ in private right now: “I’m not saying they should’ve done it…but I understand.”
Didn’t convince Luka.
That wasn’t acting by Kidd. Even if Nico told him ahead of time, no one would think Nico was stupid enough to actually do it.
“We need to really evaluate our future with Luka man”
“Sounds good I traded him for AD”
“I’m just sa-wait what”
Like Mike’s Jason Kidd
Make up your mind. Was the Luka trade a generational fumble by the Mavs? or did they can’t wait to get rid of him. This game to game flip flop is disingenuous.
It can be both. If he was such a horrible guy to be around, he put the whole organization in an impossible situation.
Don’t forget AD was “at dinner” and had no idea this was happening !!!
So many people on here really believe everything they hear on commercials lol
This isn’t a problem even if true. If front office told him, and told him not to tell Luka…he is in the worst position. No benefit to telling him. Whatever shitstorm kicks up in that world is worse than what ended up happening and Jason Kidd would be worse off for it, probably Luka too. Only if Luka was sharing “hey, I’m gonna buy this really big house and Dallas and “ that’s when Jason Kidd could tell a story of his own, or make one up, about being traded from a team.
He convinced people he was shocked about that trade?!?! No way!!! Why else would Luka have gotten traded then??? Durr!! It’s obviously the COACHES decision to trade him for AD. I don’t think Nico knew Luka was bad on defense
Honestly how is that wife beating piece of shit still in the league
Nice. On the rotation this week, Nico bashing.
I forgot about the weekly reset—a couple days ago it was Ja Bashing.
Kidd was genuinely shocked though because the return was abysmal. And what’s Tim’s expectation here?
Dumb
I am absolutely dumbfounded by how everything has changed for Luka. I don’t think Laker fans are ready for the Luka era. This guy isn’t Kobe, LeBron or even AD. If the ball isn’t in his hands he provides no value. I don’t see a world where Luka + Austin Reaves leads to a title. Entertaining yes, might give a team a good playoff scare, but he’s going to be competing with SGA, Wemby, Ant & Flagg for his Laker tenure.
He’s no Curry or Jokic, he’s James Harden or a playmaking Carmelo.
How funny, Wemby shot bad last night, and yet he’s another media clip of Luka slander, interesting…….
Cause Wemby can shoot bad and still be the best defensive player in a generation the same night. Is that interesting also?
i say it’s a lakers thing. Luka has had bad shooting nights even as a mav. but he wasn’t getting talked about this much. now he’s a laker, everyday there’s a Luka post
That’s the charm of playing for the Lakers
Can Wenby play a playoff game before he’s being called best in a generation at anything?
No I’d expect Wemby to be that just based on his trajectory, just a weird coincidence i wanted to point out
Did Wemby’s team lose their last game?
Wemby shooting terribly and his team winning does not coordinate with each other
Team winning and the tone of media clips do “coordinate” with each other
Media clips focus on what drives them most attention which is Luka Slander, yet no media clips have been posted praising Wemby on his win
Because after all this time, Lukas game is still one dimensional and he’s on a team that has the biggest spotlight. Those of us who’ve watched him this whole time aren’t surprised by this at all, the only thing they aren’t talking about yet is his flopping. I had hoped he’d grow up after being traded, but looks like that hasn’t happened. It ain’t slander when it’s true…
He absolutely destroyed y’all being one dimensional huh lmao
He ended your franchises best shot at a chip in decades
It is most definitely is slander any superstar who played on this lakers team would have regressed in some way. You yourself as a suns fan have seen what Lukas been able to do with a semi competent team, especially when he’s in the playoffs. Lukas been having a good defensive and effort stretch and quality playmaking since January. Those are for more deserving topics that what you consider foul-bating. Media/fans will always want scrutiny and slander of appropriate coverage
Lol! LMFAO even!
Took one year for casuals to finally realize Nico was onto something. Luka was always a fools gold and not a championship level player. As one redditor said, he’s ur white James Harden.
lmao “as one redditor said”
Trading your hall of fame 25 year old and blowing up your finals team with zero draft control till 2031. Masterful gambit, flawlessly executed
The real casuals are the ones still defending Nico… If not for extreme lottery luck just how bad would the Mavericks be looking right now?
AD noped the hell out of there right quick lmao…
What the hell are you talking about? Any sane team would just laced Luka’s next contract with clauses and incentives about negative behavior.
I feel fairly confident saying the Mavs are more likely to win a championship going forward than the Lakers which is pretty crazy given where the discourse was at this time last year.
When the Lakers have a top 5-10 player in the league they’ve pretty consistently built a championship team around them. Luka is in his prime, I’m not betting against them tbh.
“Built” they usually just get star free agents in their prime giftwrapped to them.
Sure. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the Lakers don’t have an easier time putting strong teams together. That’s exactly why I’d bet on them building around Luka over the Mavs building with Cooper (although neither situation is bad).
“Built”
You have 2 championships this century & one of them was a superteam. Maybe let’s not talk about being ‘gift wrapped’ players
You were gifted 6 championships from Minneapolis. Maybe sybau
Oh no not the segregation chips
Current Lakers and Mavs owners would have me bet LA
“Superteam” of guys in their 30’s we either drafted or traded for. Your franchise gets handed MVP candidates in their prime and still manages to be complete ass. Embarrassing
KG was drafted a year before Kobe & Allen was drafted the same year as Kobe. Both also had significantly less mileage. But yeah, let’s pretend like they were old & washed.
We have the most championships since 1980 & the most since the 2000s lmao. Every time we get superstars, we’ve capitalized. As modern franchises, the Celtics aren’t even comparable to the Lakers
What the Lakers did under different ownership, coaching, staff, players, CBA, league environment is irrelevant.
If you say so!
The only reason is because they were extremely lucky to win the lottery. The Mavericks team, before Luka was traded, still had a better chance to win a championship than either the current Mavs or Lakers teams. They had just reached The Finals and they had finally put the correct and necessary pieces in place around Luka to make a legitimate 3 year championship run with Luka, Kyrie, Gafford, Lively, Washington, and Thompson as their core.
Yeah, its a crazy extra layer of the Luka trade is that they had actually managed to build like the perfect roster around a heliocentric offensive player, which is REALLY hard to do, and then got rid of the heliocentric player.
I’m from Maine so I will root for Flagg (as long as its not against the Suns in a meaningful game) as long as he in the league so it kinda bums me out that the Mavs used most of their assists to build the perfect team for a playstyle that he does not have and now they need to pivot.
Yeah, that is the baffling part of the whole thing. Luka is such a unique player and he is extremely hard to build around. After years of trying different combinations, they finally stumbled upon something that had a high likelihood of working….but, Nico immediately traded away the centerpiece to the whole puzzle.
One of the biggest flaws of that finals team was how one dimensional its offense was. It was just Luka + Kyrie cook + everyone else hit your threes and catch your lobs at an acceptable rate. The Celtics completely locked down every part of that and just made Luka do everything.
The following season adding guys like Grimes and Naji who could handle the ball and generate offense on their own + better spacing with Klay made things so much better. The team was 21-11 and Luka was on his way to averaging the lowest usage rate since his rookie season while still putting up MVP production before everybody started getting injured.
The only reason is because they were extremely lucky to win the lottery.
No its because fortune favors the bold
WHAT? Are you insane? Making idiotic trades does not put “fortune” on your side.
Luck cuts both ways. Could also say they were extremely unlucky to have Kyrie tear his ACL.
No, they were extremely lucky that Kyrie tore his ACL. Otherwise, they probably would have been just good enough to miss out on the lottery, but bad enough to have no chance to win a championship. There was no way in hell that they were going to win a championship with Kyrie and A.D…..and they wouldn’t have a future star like Cooper Flag to build around. They would have been stuck in no man’s land, with no legitimate hope to win a championship, for a decade.
Disagree. I liked that team if healthy.
That is the problem. Anthony Davis was never going to stay healthy enough for the Mavericks to be serious championship contenders. The fact that Nico Harrison traded away a 25 year old MVP candidate for a 32 year old injury waiting to happen, is what makes the trade so ridiculous.
The version of Luka we’ve seen this season might still be better than the best season Flagg ever has.
Yes.
I mean idk about you my guy but Flagg doesn’t give up on defense to whine about a call. Imagine your superstar doing that every game, the role players aren’t going to try after that.
I think you guys are a little obsessive about this
Luka in 6 years is still going to be whining after every call, he is who he is.
Based on what?
Mavs have more avenues to improve than the Lakers.
Flagg is the best player at his age since LeBron.
The only pick of the Mavs that they own outright between now and 2031 is this years. Their 2028 pick can be swapped by OKC, they have the LAL 2029 pick, their 2030 pick is swapped to hell, and they have PHI 2030 pick.
I’d argue the Lakers have more avenues to improve
Contrary to popular belief on this sub, you can build a good team without tanking.
Show me where I said anything about tanking?
You still need to be able to draft / acquire good players which is hard to do when you lack assets and picks
You can acquire good players without owning your picks outright. That is only relevant if you intend to tank.
Wow youre dense and completely missing the point while you keep trying to bring it back to tanking which has nothing to do with what I’m saying.
Outside of this year they’re looking at late late first round picks since GOOD TEAMS have swaps on their picks and they traded a bunch of their picks. It is hard to acquire good players with bad picks or when you don’t have picks at all.
Look at your own team.
There are good players to be had in mid-late picks. Good teams find them.
Then let’s not forget about the incoming picks they have, cap space they’ll have to acquire more picks and the fact that they have the best 18 year old since LeBron on their roster.
Sure a lot of guys on the suns were drafted late, what youre missing about this though is that THE SUNS TRADED ASSETS THEY HAD for a lot of them after the guys had proven themselves in the league. The Mavs dont have a Kevin Durant they can trade for Brooks, they don’t have a prospect who balled out but had motor issues they can trade for Grayson Allen. Also the best and most important player on the suns was drafted #12 overall, the Mavs will most likely not be picking that high other than this year and maybe in 2030.
For everyone good undrafted player or low pick theres 10s that are terrible and bounce out of the league.
Also there’s very little evidence the Mavs are that good at drafting the low rounds
And the Suns have no chance of winning a title with this team
What are those avenues?
Luka? Same age as Flagg as a rookie and was a better player
Flagg is a year younger than Luka was as a rookie. Also not a given that Luka was a better rookie than Flagg.
They were both 19 in their rookie year. Turning 20 in the same calendar year as their rookie season
I feel fairly confident saying the Mavs are more likely to win a championship going forward than the Lakers
Only way I’ll agree with this statement is if they get Dybantsa