Lots of nephews on this sub who weren’t around for prime Blake. Dunk City yall. He was one of the most electric rookies of all time (inb4 not a rookie). He finished top 10 MVP voting as a rookie (before CP3).

It’s a crime to compare Banchero to him.

Edit: Lob City.

Love me some Blake respect!

I don’t disagree with the individual ability, but I think it is fair to consider how much having an all-time great PG next to him helped Paul. My point was that I’m not certain if Griffin really turns the Clippers around, in OP’s manner , if he doesn’tr get a top-10 all-time PG to elevate his game.

Griffin was routinely outplayed by others at his position - Duncan, Zebo, Kevin Love, Dirk come to mind immediately

I agree as well, and wasn’t so much trying to directly compare the two players as to say Paul was a massive boost to the Clippers. I was trying to say the Clippers without Paul would be comparable to the Banchero Magic, in terms or team success. That is, I don’t know that the Clippers without Paul would fit into OP’s definition of a “turned around” franchise, and it’s not a fair comparison to define these players’ franchise success with nonexistent consideration to the teams they joined and the moves those teams made.

KAT gets Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert, while Anthony Bennett and Andrew Wiggins are sent to play with Zach LaVine in the West, then get deemed failures of the Eastern Conference’s draft prospects (despite being how Cleveland got LeBron back to win a title).

Roy being the alpha made Oden’s injuries hurt even more. That duo was a massive what if.

But Oden was seen as a generationally gifted big man, and POR went from 41 to 54 wins the year Oden arrived.

Which, that’s another factor for consideration that the OP doesn’t address. Getting a fortunate pick from the back of the lottery, like the Blazers, Bulls, Mavs, and others, is going to impact a fringe-lottery team’s ability to “turn around” a lot better than being a bottom feeder who gets one potentially good NBA player onto the roster through the draft.

Oden could have been the more dominant force had he never been hurt so acting like he wouldnt have been the top option when centers like him were very highly sought after is a bit misleading

And, again, I was speaking to the level of success the TEAMS would have, not the players’ individuual talent. Take Paul off the Clippers, and how muchg better than the present-day Magic are those Clippers?

As good as Griffin was, I don’t think he’d be the first, or best, star-level player to not drastically carry a franchise forward because of how difficult that can be. Kevin Love with the Wolves and Anthony Davis with the Pelicans immediately pop into mind as massively talented bigs who weren’t enough to reverse the fortunes of struggling franchises. Without a generational PG next to him, is Griffin going to carry the Clippers beyond what the Magic have been doing? That is, a team that’s been in the 5-7 range for the past 3 years.

I’m not calling Banchero as good as Griffin by any means. I’m saying that OP is defining “turnaround a franchise” in an imbalanced manner. The East gets dinged for Anthony Bennett and Andrew Wiggins, even though Cleveland turned itself around by flipping them for LeBron. Meanwhile, Griffin gets a massivee boost to his stock in the discussion because Chris Paul is put next to him.

Overall, I think the only thing we can meaningfully see from this is that the Sixers really swung and missed on Simmons and Fultz, but they also hit big on the Embiid gamble at #3. Beyond that, we’re talking about Cooper Flagg as having turned around the Mavs while they’re 19-35. while someone’s saying John Wall didn’t do enough for the Wizards, despite leading a Wizards turnaround that was more impactful than what we got from the likes of KAT pre-Edwards, Davis’ Pelicans, and the overall impact of Aion (due to injury) and Ayton (due to effort).

He took the Wizards to the playoffs 4 times in 5 years while makign 5-straight All-Star teams. Coming out of the Gilbert Arenas era and having season of 19 and 26 wins, that’s a pretty good turnaround. If we’re going to hold this notiong that” top-level contender” is the only definition of success, then most of these players are flops.

He was still top 5 at his position and getting better

I can only say this so many times:

I agreew that Griffin was a much better talent than Banchero, and was speaking to how much Paul’s addition increased Griffin’s ability to accomplish what he did. Without Paul, I think Griffin is still better than Banchero, but think the Clippers are much worse off, using the Magic with Banchero as a TEAM comparison, not a player one.

Totally agree. I think that, for the purpose of OP’s post, Flagg is an unfair player to put up as an example of a “franchise changer.” The post is meant to be about what the prospects were expected to be.

In that sense, Ben Simmons was probably #1 or #2, in terms of hype and expectations. Unfairly, his poor outcome is being used to dragged down the East, while giving Flagg maximum credit from his hype and instant impact (neither which separates him from Simmons’ start, IMO) is skewing the argument.

I think the West is overall a better group, but I think the way it’s being presented is either a dishonest revision of history or a sign OP didn’t experience, or doesn’t remember, the levels of expectations many of these players had.

And, again, my statement was about how the Clippers without Paul would compare. IDK why reading that is so difficult. Using everything Blake accomplished in his NBA career to compare to Banchero’s early years, especially while OP is trying to prop up Flagg as “turning around the Mavs” at 19-33 is doubly silly.

Because you’re completely changing the topic to create those tiers.

The post is about the talents who were available with the #1 overall pick, and you’re creating tiers based on career outcomes. Greg Oden was a VERY highly regarded prospect, and should be essentially on the opposite end of the tiers you created, when following OP’s guideline of the talent available in the draft.

In that same manner, you have the most comically generous assessments in the second tier. Edwards wasn’t even a bonafide #1 prospect in his draft (Ball was argued over him by many at the time). Flagg is being put into an “MVP consideration” tier on a 19-33 team. Simmons was being compared to LeBron. Flagg is somewhoe in a tier of accomplishment he hasn’t earned. You’d probably have Simmons there after his rookie year as well, even though Flagg’s team is in and Simmons was doing that on a 50-win team. Drawing parallels of success like that makes no sense when it’s comparing one year against a decade.

You’re showing up with a compeltely different presentation than the post is about, that’s why you’re confused. That you’ve done this while trying to christen Flagg and Cunningham as established MVPs already is even crazier.

Simmons is not above Paolo. Simmons basically played 4 real seasons. Even with the down year, Paolo has led teams to the playoffs. I know everyone hates him now but he’s an all NBA talent.

Rose should be above Ant.

Blake Griffin finished top 10 in MVP voting 3 times, including placing 3rd in 2014 when he averaged 24-10-4 at 24 years old. Unfortunately, injuries started interfering with his career shortly afterwards. But he was really, really good at his peak, definitely “MVP conversation” level.

Most of OP’s assessment is being presented both in hindsight AND with maximal assumped potential of the present players.

Cooper Flagg is getting deemed a franchise-changer on a team that’s 19-23. Ben Simmons, who was being legitimately compared to LeBron (even if the expectations were absurd)., but people are going to knock that draft pick because it took such an unbelievably bad turn. Zion is getting the benefit of the doubt with potential, while John Wall is getting knocked down for not getting enough All-NBA teams next to the likes of Rose, Bryant, Westbrook, and Wade before his knees gave out.

Anthony Edwards gets put next to Gobert and KAT, and we’re acting like he didn’t have question marks coming out of the draft. He gets put next to top-level talent and we just skip all of the details for the narrative.

There’s so much revisionism (of the expectatinos from past players) and wild assumption (of the recent players) in the OP. It’s just getting eaten up because a lot of people don’t remember or care about the past expectations of draftees.

Overall, there is skew towards the top guys drafted by the West, but I wouldn’t even say it’s as egregious as the raw talent difference between the two conferences as they currently play in the league–despite how little of that imbalance is reliant on these #1 overall picks or having those players stay with their original teams.

Yep, Paul and Kobe were drafted by the Hornets while they were an Eastern Conference team (pre-expansion), and Kawhi’s biggest accomplishment was arguably while he was in the Eastern Conference (depending on how you weight his years with SA against his single season in TOR).

Agreed, but again, I was speaking to how OP is determining “franchise changing,” without the contesxt of Paul’s presence. That’s why I compared Griffin’s impact to the success of the Banchero Magic, not the player hinself. On an individuial level, Kevin Love probably makes sense as a direct player comparison. He was seen as massively talented, but he didn’t have good talent around him, and he couldn’t drag a garbage Wolves team anywhere by himself. In that same vein, I think the opinion around Griffin would be much different if he didn’t have an all-timer at PG to lift him up. That goes for setiting up plays, being a locker room presence, and generally being there to show Griffin how to play the game to hix maximum potential.

Griffin was always a great prospect, and would have likely been a very good player regardless. I’m only saying Paul helped maximize that potential, and that his omission from that team would have likely led to a different outcome for the Clippers, not to say Griffin would equate to Banchero on talent.

Only due to injuries though. Embiid was taking the top spot if he didn’t break his foot

That trade was already agreed upon before the pick as well, so if anything we should attribute the Wiggins pick to the West. Idc it wasn’t official yet, the Timberwolves definitely had a say in who the Cavs picked.

But yeah I agree with you Wiggins was the consensus pick

Same with Fultz over Tatum. Fultz was basically the clear #1 for everyone except Danny Ainge. Just something fluky happened where his jump shot disappeared completely.

Yeah Embiid had so many red flags. It’s very surprising that he ended up being as durable as he has been, especially given how his career started

That doesn’t mean it’s not a bad pick.

riggin for wiggins

concede for embiid

I know, I a lot of people in this sub forget to change their current mindset to the mindset of the time. Which is why you have absurd hindsight is ²⁰⁄₂₀ takes.

People act like Fultz was a bust waiting to happen, yet he was the consensus #1 pick all season leading up to the draft. Weird situation with him obviosuly led to the bust label, but good on Celtics for grabbing Tatum though

I think within shouting distance is a stretch, just cause Tatum ended up a top 5 in the NBA.

But it is very funny that people defend the Greg Oden pick as “not a bust, just injury” and flame the Fultz pick

I will defend that pick forever

Why? Ainge put the #1 on the market literally right after Fultz worked out for us.

To the point that media folks were starting to suggest is might actually be the better pick right before the draft. 

I don’t disagree. This whole exercise is revisionist.

At the time, Ant was a risk—a lower tier prospect for #1 pick. Oden and Ayton were deserving #1s. We’re just judging off outcomes here. And by outcomes, nobody will argue that Ayton was a better pick than Luka.

I’m more curious about who the low level stars are.

I assume Towns for one, but Blake is asolutely a hit and it’s too early to tell for Flagg.

Simmons made 3 all star teams, 2 all defense, and an all nba for the sixers. Thats much better than what Ayton gave Phoenix, for example. 

It was clear in the workouts leading to the draft that fultz could not shoot. Sixers not only drafted him but traded a future first to move up and get him. I wouldn’t blame them for taking simmons, 9 out of 10 teams draft simmons every time

Atv injury 

I pray for Markelle they fucked up his shot

Sixers were a historically bad front office between Hinkie and Morey. Almost all of the moves made were horrible even without hindsight

He’s on the list. In the analysis he said “Cade is the only exception.” Kyrie won his east team a ring, that’s not a career wrecked by injuries

OP is coming to a conclusion based on limited information. I understand the point they’re trying to convey just fine. I just think the data does it a disservice or works against OP somewhat (”East gets 1OA they have to pick through a pile of doodoo”).

If op had any integrity they would go back to Michael Olowokandi.

Not including the GOAT who is still all nba level is just odd to me for the purpose of the post.