Draymond Green: “Guys who score at an elite level but doesn’t quite compete on the defensive end, they’re just really losing value in this league of guys where everything is fast, trying to get downhill, everybody is playing off close outs.”
This is why I feel like Cooper Flagg is going to end up being the real deal. He’s turning out to be really valuable at both ends of the court.
So many wing prospects have gotten the Kawhi/Tatum comparisons and failed. Flagg is the closest thing and he’s so exciting to watch grow every game
More like the kawhi pg comparison. Tatum fulfilled those comparisons
I think he’s saying people are comparing young guys to Tatum. Because yes Tatum is now the standard for elite two way wings.
Yep, Tatum is clear of PG by a lot at this point.
You’re agreeing but wording it like you don’t. Tatum fulfilled the expectations so he is the new bar, taking PGs spot.
He’s evolving every game
I cant imagine a better profile of player tbh. If he can reach his full potential, dude will be a menace for years
Cooper’s body might breakdown tho, i dont think in todays era its possible to compete on both ends without injury, Lebron is probably the closest and he is 1:1 in terms of avoiding major injuries with a 6,9 frame.
It is absolute insane how much ground players have to cover due to the 3p shot specially for bigger players.
And we can say that about almost any high level 2 way prospect - the modern game’s impact on the human body in term of major injuries is far less an “if” than a question of “when”
Hopefully he didn’t get run into the ground by an AAU program but the reality is that he likely did.
The size of these guys absolutely increases the injury risk, but I’ll absolutely die on the hill that they’re playing too many games, too often, from too young of an age.
If LeBron had come up through an AAU system, he wouldn’t have had the health history he does.
I’d have to dig up the quote, but Justin Verlander was asked a year or two ago about maintaining his velocity and arm at his age and he made a comment about “if I was trying to throw this hard when I was a teenager, I wouldn’t be able to throw this hard today” which I think is an issue across all pro sports currently
Lebron literally played Aau bro the Ohio shooting stars and the Oakland soilders. His body is just different than everyone else’s.
He also played football at least one year I’m high-school.
He played 3 actually and was a top wide receiver prospect in Ohio.
Was AAU back then at the level it is now? I also remember him playing multiple sports, so it wasnt all repetitive wear and tear.
His era is the one that literally the one that started it. That’s how it became a phenomenon for teammates to team up in the nba because a lot of them got to know each other at camps and tournaments when they were younger.
Na it wasnt even close to what its become now. I grew up in that time period, and players weren’t being moved to different cities to play for certain highschools, etc etc. You play where you grew up and that was that.
I did too homie and yes they absolutely were your wrong as hell. Just off the top of my head Carmelo Anthony is from Baltimore and Brandon Jennings is from California both of them went to the prominent Virginia school in Oak Hill academy.
For one year. LeBron played his whole highschool career with his childhood homies. The systems are not remotely comparable between then and now. Nowadays you have every half competent player from bum fuck Canada being given a scholarship to play for an aau highschool team, obviously the prodigy players have always drawn huge attention.
Wrong again Kendrick Perkins is from Texas and Leon Powell is from California LeBron is from Ohio. The Oakland soilders was a bay area team.
Yea was gonna say, travel and aau was usually in state, or potentially a large area (grew up in the DMV) but don’t think we ever traveled further than 3 or 4 hours. Could depend on availability of competition too I guess
I Don’t know what DMV you grew up in because the one I did, DC Assault and team takeover traveled to Florida many times along with youth football with beacon house falcons hella fundraisers.
Lebron played AAU. It’s AAU plus the academy teams in HS that also add up all that mileage
It has more to do with them not being tri sport athletes than the basketball games themselves.
Yeah I realized after I posted that I should have been more clear.
I appreciate someone else pointing out that he was a multi-sport athlete. That matters, that makes a difference. And that doesn’t really happen as much these days.
Malone was even more injury resilient than LeBron on an even bigger frame.
I don’t think you need be Kawhi to “compete” on defense. If you can generate passive defensive pressure through discipline and high IQ, that’s more than enough.
Cooper already does that pretty well along with his highlight reel blocks
Everyone should know this already! Coop is the real deal. It’s only a matter of time so he can continue to develop into the super hero already is. Mavs fan btw for you corny ass flair users out there
The consensus #1 pick is going to be a really good basketball player??? What a take bro you really went out on a limb there lmfao
Might be worth looking over the list of first overall picks…
Over the last 25 years please tell me how many consensus #1 overall picks have not ended up being really good basketball players
I’m not talking really good. How many made a first or second all NBA team?
Thats the level I think Flagg will be.
Over the last 25 years please tell me how many consensus #1 overall picks have not ended up making an all-nba team
Ok.
By my count, 12.
But Flagg and Wemby should barring injury at some point.
Cade likely will this year and Zion certainly has the talent to.
Risacher probably needs a lot of development to get to that level.
Is this sub illiterate? When was Richaser ever labeled as a consensus #1 overall pick almost everyone disagreed with the pick? What on earth are you talking about please name those 12 consensus #1 overall picks that never name an all-nba team LMFAOOO
Anthony Bennett was genuinely ass lmao
Futurology does not work in NBA anymore. If you play with that much intensity, it’s hard on the body man, tall dudes tend to have knee/hip issues. Those “real deal” careers are one injury away to being out for a year and then struggling to get back to that level again.
The increased speed and intensity will cost more grave injuries.
It’s super super super early but he may be on a Lebron trajectory.
Is this what passes for a hot take here lmao
Guys who score at a genuinely elite level haven’t lost value. Inefficient microwave types like Cam Thomas have, sure. Even a past his prime Harden who isn’t the offensive player he was 8 years ago and is an even a worse defender than he was back then still has a ton of value.
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Harden was a terrible defender for a few years.
Sorta. In the beginning, he was. The first few years in Houston, it was due to just not giving a shit on that end as our offense with Mchale was give the ball to Harden and everyone fuck off type shit. With MDA, our defensive coach had a great defensive scheme that basically revolved around constant switching but he would find ways to put harden guarding more the post which worked great as Harden is for a lack of better terms pretty round. He could guard there. If you’re a coach you don’t really want Harden guarding anywhere around the arc or wing. In the post against 1 to 3, occasionally 4,he’s actually decent as he doesn’t need to be quick. He can just plant himself.
When we got CP3 we finally had a great roster that could guard up and down. PJ, Ariza, Green, Capela etc list goes on but we could constantly switch and not worry about any weak links. Even when they got Harden on the switch up high, our guys were super quick and basically on a string that you had to be quick penetrating or you were fucked.
Man what???
Houston fans always trying to do this revisionist crap about Harden’s defense lol
https://youtu.be/wVYJULACcao?si=4PyDqqzkGeK-BevS
Nah
No, he was bad. Always has been lol
Fair enough, but I feel Draymond is taking shots at guys like Luka and Harden. Even guys who are considerably worse on both offense and defense than Luka and Harden, like Young and Garland, still have value because of their offensive ability.
He’s absolutely talking about guys like Young/Garland who were just traded for a fraction of their perceived value a couple years ago
He’s absolutely not talking about guys like Luka and Harden who are also generational playmakers that he’s constantly praised.
He’s talking about literally Cam Thomas and you’re translating that to Luka and Harden. It’s guys like Cam, Simons, etc.
I think his point is just incomplete here, because I think most people understand he’s probably not talking about someone like Luka or Harden, but by his definition here (because he doesn’t mention other facets of offense) both of those guys would qualify.
I don’t think it’s a “shot” and I do understand his point, though
Prime Harden & Luka both have size, which is valuable on the defensive end for rebounding and switching to bigs. They are both average defenders.
I think it’s a sign of being mentally deficient, unfortunately there are a lot of people like him on this sub and it continues to make this sub worse every single day
Harden and Luka are also two incredible playmakers and are essentially offensive systems on their own. Those guys are not losing value (unless your name is Nico Harrison). Trae was sold at an extreme low, but is also the worse of the three as a defender and arguably offensively as well. At the end of the day I think it’ll ebb and flow but when a major trade is sold low it tends to dictate that market for that window/year.
cmon man, this is disingenuous as hell. He’s clearly talking about guys like Thomas/Garland, not Luka…
No he’s not. It’s the Lou will player type that is dying. Lou will had good efficiency tho
Curry is the epitome of the player he is talking about tho
Curry is an offensive savant and an average defensive guard. As most people here are pointing out, he is talking about the Trae Young/Darius Garland archetype. Great offensive players who aren’t elite enough to offset being a total cone.
Cam Thomas had a 57% TS last season. He had around the same TS% eFG as Devin Booker.
Like yes the better and more efficient you are gives you more leeway on defense. But Cam scored it really well last year and can probably be even more efficient in a better team situation. However his defense kind of makes that less of a valuable risk to take, his upside is capped.
I’m interested to see if the spacing in Milwaukee will help with Cam’s efficiency.
Yeah, I still think he can be valuable in the right situation. He just has distinct weaknesses so it’s harder to find those situations.
I don’t think he will ever be a positive defender, no matter how hard he tries, he is small, slow, and unathelic but I think he will benefit greatly from not being blitzed on every PnR, and maybe it will make him a more willing passer being on a team with a Hierarchy.
Yes, he needs a role and situation where he can utilize his considerable offensive skills while being insulated on defense as much as possible.
The only way he wants to play is to dribble the air out of the ball for 10 seconds then go iso into a tough shot. He only passes when he’s absolutely forced to, teams don’t double him because they aren’t scared of helping off, they double him because they know he won’t pass out of it. So it doesn’t really matter who his teammates are, he played the same way when KD and Kyrie were on the floor lol.
He needs to completely change everything about his game and his mentality to be a useful player. I guess it’s possible but I’m extremely skeptical. Not getting any contact offers as a free agent and then not getting any trade offers could be the wake up calls he needed though.
57 was good 8 years ago, it’s average now
Context is important - as a volume/self creating guard scorer that’s still pretty good. If you’re getting spoon fed open shots, definitely less impressive. Just because the average TS% for a position group is one number doesn’t mean that a volume scorer hitting that amount isn’t valuable.
Last year there were 35 guards (a term used liberally by nba.com) that averaged more than 15 shot attempts per game, Cam was 18th in that group in TS% - right between James Harden and Donovan Mitchell. He was 26th in that group in eFG. He’s a pretty good volume/self creation scorer.
What else does Cam Thomas do besides score? We know and have seen what Book can do
the bigger problem is that he doesn’t do anything else on offense either. hes the size of a point guard but doesn’t playmake
Cam also does nothing besides score.
Been that way for a while especially if your undersized and can’t playmake decently
Even players that can playmake can be problematic
Look at Trae. Genuinely an insane offensive player but due to his contract and size he got traded for peanuts
I fucking hate when I agree with DG. but here we are.
He generally has a pretty great ability to analyze the game but he gets into very over the top antics on and off the court. I would trust him with his basketball analysis 100%, but I would not trust him to keep his cool while playing.
But even his analysis can be clouded by the grudges he holds. He’s gonna need to humble himself and let go of the grudges before people start taking his analysis seriously, imo
He’s a good listen as long as he isn’t talking about himself. Unfortunately that’s a big chunk of his podcast and why I don’t listen.
You have to be elite offensively while also being a good playmaker + having good passing as a small guard
more at 6
That wasn’t the case as recent as 5-6 years ago.
I mean, Draymond doesn’t say that but yeah if he was better offensively he would have more margin for error on defense.
TLDR
Way more players are a threat offensively. There’s nowhere to hide if you’re a bad defender and your negative defense can more easily wipe out any positive value you bring as a scorer.
Cam Thomas would have been a really good player in the early 2010’s. But players have evolved and that archetype is usually not good enough to be a really good player anymore.
Cam Thomas, Jalen Green, Anfernee Simons all cut from the same cloth
I think Jalen is definitely more valuable than the other two but he also makes 35 mil a year lol. I think a lot of that is that he’s just bigger and more athletic than both.
Statistically Green is the least efficient of the 3
Yeah but that doesn’t necessarily mean those other guys are more valuable. Jalen Green is useful in more situations than the other two as a bigger, much better athlete.
He’s got a point. It’s one reason why scoring has skyrocketed and defense has faltered.
And it’s something the NBA wants. Highlights and big-number stats are why the NBA is dominating social media. The league would much rather Anthony Edwards make a highlight dunk or put up 40, instead of using 70% of his energy on defense and only scoring 15 that night - even if both result in a win.
The league wants to encourage more offense and make it easier to score / get fouled and put up points. So players respond in turn.
I think you have a poor example because Ant has a ton of defensive highlights. He recently shutdown the Raptors last week, clamped Shai in the clutch around Christmas, that game saving block vs the Pacers when KAT was out a few years ago.
People clown and disrespect someone like Rudy tho who has an insane impact on winning and 4x DPOY but has goofy offensive lowlights and low point averages.
I think he has a good example because earlier this week Gobert ran to the media complaining about Ant’s (and others’) lack of defensive effort
Gobert did not complain at Ant’s effort. He complained about the team’s overall effort. No one was singled out
This is going to keep being a problem because coaches at every level before the NBA only want offense guys. For sure in college, they have to recruit for exclusively offensive. There was just an interview segment with Dan Hurley and Geno Auriemma where they both said they’ll recruit on offense only and they need guys with a lot of ways to score the ball. And then coaches will also bitch about one and done and the portal and all that stuff. It’s so messed up, ha! The college programs have no opportunity to develop defensive skill in players, the players have never had an incentive to be a good defender at any point since 8u. They’ve never had to be great at on ball defense, let alone learned team defense and rotation and coverage strategies. So they get recruited with a bunch of piss in their ear about being a scorer but they get on the team and realize there’s nowhere near enough balls to go around. So they don’t play and look to transfer and repeat the cycle. But then the guys that get to the NBA, no matter how well some of them can score, they can’t keep a job or can’t break through. Mac McClung for example. Hell even Luka is getting pretty consistent criticism about defense. You can’t be more of an elite scorer than he is so what hope do these other guys have?
Unless you are generational like Luka and harden are, just being a merely very good scorer with nothing else added is doing very little in today’s NBA
If you score 30, but give up 40, then what’s your value?
Draymond can’t be more wrong about this. In every era, the elite offensive player who can’t play defense always gets paid. That is never going to stop. It might not be the team‘s first choice, obviously everybody wants a Michael Jordan or LeBron James, but somebody has to score and there’s only so many two way player’s out there.
Now, if Draymond doesn’t use the word elite, then I’m more inclined to agree with him. Someone like Jordan Poole, who is a pretty good offensive player at times is not someone I would call elite. With that being said, Jordan Poole is going to have a job until he can’t stop scoring.
FIRE NICO
shoutout Cam Thomas. The Kobe Bryant of Jimmmer Fredette’s
The guy who no one wanted when he was available and was let go to find a team? That guy? Is he “still” valuable? Ummm when was he?
Begs the question: how f*cked would Carmelo be in today’s NBA?
Maybe about the same level he was in his time where he was a perpetual 1st rd exit in the playoffs?
Dylan Brooks MVP incoming
I am still trying to understand active players having these podcasts and trying to also the media as well.
Draymond has had diminishing value as a player and was in plenty of trade talks before the deadline. This podcast just doesn’t look good because of that. If the on-court performance is sub par, then it is harder to excuse extracurriculars like this podcast.
Source: Am Warriors fan
I feel like both Luka and Joker are still top 5 players, and many other offensive leaning players are ranked high and paid handsomely
Wrong. You can still get paid a ton for just scoring and not playing D
And teams who gives up assets to trade for one-sided players are not contenders.
Defense is overrated as an individual trait. In basketball, defense is a team effort and requires cohesion. Individuals can be bad defenders by not competing and not being cohesive. Being slow footed or getting blown by off the dribble is not really the major defensive liability people make it out to be, as long as you know your rotations, close out and contest.
Scoring the ball at all 3 levels, however, is not something that can be achieved via effort and team cohesion. Few can do it at the pro level. Most teams could use at least one guy in the cam Thomas “archetype” - despite him not getting trade interest. I expect he will be a positive player for Milwaukee or another team in the future, like KPJ has been for the bucks (note the similarities).
Being slow footed or getting blown by off the dribble is not really the major defensive liability people make it out to be
In the playoffs it absolutely is a major liability. Doesn’t matter how good of a “team defender” a player is when they’re getting targeted 5 possessions in a row
Most teams that have won conference or league titles in the last 5-6 years have had high-minute players who are below league average individual defenders but make up for it in other ways. Defense is a team effort, individual-level liabilities can be overcome with strong scheme and cohesion. Happens all the time.
That is a pretty big liability. Forcing the defense to collapse in the paint and leaving shooters open. The slow footed defender isn’t going to suddenly become quick footed enough to rotate.
Draymond “testicle-thrasher” Green is correct. He may be ridiculous is many facets of his “game” and his opinions, but he’s correct in this instance.
This isn’t a new lol
biting the hand that feeds
Curry has been a pretty strong defender for quite some time now.
Strong is a bit of an overstatement but he is absolutely a competent help defender at the very least. Curry is such a statistical outlier that it’s hard to really evaluate him next to other small guards. He’s quite literally the only sub 6’4 player in the last 30 years (at minimum) to lead his team to a championship.
We not counting Chauncey in 2004?
That defensive era was crazy. Billips averaged 16 ppg and 38.5% shooting during that championship run in the playoffs.
5/5/1… what was that Dray?
Is he taking shots at Luka? I agree Luka is pretty bad in defense but we’ve seen that can be overcome with the right guys around him, and his offensive game is high enough at that point where his defense doesn’t matter as much.
kuminga
He’s talking about Cam, not Luka
why he does steph like that?
he’s not
Draymond expert on losing value in the league
Everyone loses value when they get old.
I mean draymonds value has always been tied to curry klay and the warriors offense. He’s notably not as valuable on any team without steph.
Lol ok
He’s basically shitting on Luka 😂
Classic illiterate clippers fan
“Is the Cam Thomas archetype still valuable”
He can’t read, leave him alone!
He’s literally shitting on Cam Thomas if you can read.
Or Trae, or Garland
Luka is an average defender so no.
No he isn’t
I guess you missed this video
Bro is citing Jimmy highroller 😭
Jimmy is unbiased there, so he’s valid, He’s literally a blazers fan. But keep crying
Below standard