Carlos Beltran and Andruw Jones have been elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame!
This sport has a long history of being indecisive of when cheating is and isn’t ok lmao
And Andruw Jones demonstrates how inconsistent they are in applying the character clause. So this pair of guys is a nice double whammy in that way
The writers should just collectively throw the character clause in the trash at this point. There are already so many monsters in the hall and the writers are largely inconsistent at judging recent players’ “character” imo.
Baseball has proven time and time again that if you’re not the guy moving the turnstiles (see: Addison Russell), they’ll gladly throw the book at you (as they should) but if you’re really good they’ll look the other way. Moral of the story is that if you make the league a lot of money you can almost literally get away with murder.
To be fair, it’s not just baseball that does that. Pretty much every league is guilty of looking the other way for stars
“If Hannibal Lecter ran a 4.3, we’d probably diagnose it as an eating disorder.” - Steve Keim, ex-Arizona Cardinals GM.
They are incentivized to ignore it. Players are their assets, they aren’t going to devalue the expensive ones unless they are made to.
Different sport but OJ literally killed his wife, and you can still see his bust in Canton lmao
But Roberto Alomar’s plaque is still in Cooperstown, and just like OJ he got banned after he got in the HOF.
The piece of metal comment gave a permission structure for Beltran I gues
Jones feels like a Vince Carter kind of induction, great peak then held on as a compiler for years a la Andruw Jones was a PROBLEM #problem
Jones isn’t a compiler, he’s the greatest defensive CF to ever play baseball and also could smash the ball.
A compiler is someone like Harold Baines.
Andruw Jones is the greatest defensive center fielder I have ever seen. PCA is incredible but Jones had a decade-plus stretch where you couldn’t BUY a hit to CF in Atlanta. Truly incredible to see live.
Andruw in his prime would be breaking for the ball before it was even hit
Not to mention how shallow he played to cut down bloop hits.
Jim Edmonds did the same but Jones was on another level.
Edmonds was better going back on the ball but Andruw has no peer coming in on it. And by “no peer,” I mean none, not even Mays.
Eh this is just my thoughts personally but I always felt VC was going to get into the Hall. Maybe not first year, but definitely eventually.
I was really unsure about Andruw Jones…but hey good for him. It is also cool to see someone from Curaçao getting inducted among Cooperstown’s most famous faces
The basketball hall of fame is piss easy to get into compared to the other sports. Anyone who doubted Vince would get in is bonkers.
They are also explicit that it’s the basketball HOF and consider non-NBA accomplishents. Vince had a great college career + team USA moments to add to his resume
Vince grew the game in Canada like no one else. That alone gets him in
Not trying to be mean but what the heck is this take? Jones is legit the opposite of a compiler. 11 elite years with the braves then fell off a cliff instantly to the point of being virtually unplayable. Vince was still making small but positive contributions when he was 40, ironically some of them being on the hawks
Beltran was a borderline candidate. Bonds, ARod, Clemens are top 15-20 players to ever step on a baseball field and were already HOFers before steroids.
Beltran getting in before ARod is a fucking joke lmao. I’m not even necessarily in support of roiders making the hall but if they’re letting in the orchestrator of the biggest cheating scandal this century fuck it let them all in
Yeah that’s pretty much exactly how I feel. Like, Arod shouldn’t get in for cheating, but he was genuinely one of the best to ever do it. So the fact Beltran gets in but it’s looking like Arod won’t is so fucking stupid lmao
This pisses me off. I had accepted A-Rod not getting in, but after this?
ARod was amazing. Literally who gives a fuck about Carlos Beltran. I don’t even think Mets fans care about him.
If you built a shortstop in a lab, it would be ARod. He was so fucking good.
Well yeah, the lab stuff of why he won’t get in
Yes we do.
I mean, I agree with the general points being shared here, but Mets fans definitely give a fuck about Beltran
I give a fuck. That said, I got his autograph at a minor-league game back in the day and was very nice about it, so that definitely influences my opinion.
Arod’s got steroid allegations going back to before he was drafted. No wonder he was an all time great, he was juiced basically the entire time. Bonds at least had a first ballot HOF career before cheating in his late 30’s
Not even a fan of the guy but come on, Beltran would have been a slam dunk first ballot pick if it weren’t for the trash banging.
500 doubles, 400 home runs, and 300 steals. The only other players in that club are Barry Bonds, ARod, Andrè Dawson, and Willie Mays. That’s pretty amazing company.
Also, just a small correction: ARod was not already a Hall of Famer before he started taking roids. He admitted to taking them while he was with the rangers.
Apparently not, since 40% of that list aren’t in the Hall. /s
Or maybe /r/baseball isn’t indicative of how people in the sport actually feel about any of it.
Always hilarious when a company doesn’t realize reddit is a vocal minority and it absolutely tanks something based on reddit opinions.
gasp how dare you?
Cheating (proven) and sucking: OK, apparently
Cheating (probably happened but never proven) and tearing off some of the greatest seasons in baseball history: bad, boo
But but you don’t understand - he was punished by losing a manager job! And also other people were also cheating (not as egregiously or against the rules, mind you) which made it ok for him to cheat! Unlike the steroid era, where other people were cheating which made it bad…
With the cheating ringleader Beltran now in the hall, I think that makes Altuve a lock
Honestly at this point I’d be upset if they held Altuve out, because it would show a complete lack of understanding of who is reported to have done what.
At least Jomboy got rich off of it
I get why people thought there was a case he wouldn’t based solely on the character clause, but I really thought that was a dumb argument given that no one says he did anything.
He was good before the trash banging, good during it, and still good after it. Allegedly didn’t use the banging, and no one links him to it, so I feel like he’s clear in that regard. Because we shouldn’t deem him guilty by association.
His stats are good enough. MVP, couple rings (albeit one tainted), a few batting titles, some great postseason numbers, etc. Could he potentially be held back multiple years because of the cheating scandal? Absolutely. But he’s in.
Pretty wild the mastermind for the largest cheating scandal of the past 50 years in MLB history gets to go into the Hall of Fame.
That is unless he sweet talked and bribed the BBWAA writers prior to them voting, or maybe the word had gotten out that the guy who was on the verge of retiring WASNT the mastermind and just took one for the team.
Either way, anyone who voted for Beltran has ruined their credit for me in terms of “ethical” voting, everyone is a hypocrite.
(I’d have voted Beltran, Bonds, Arod, Manny, and everyone else deserving of the HOF inside if I had a vote btw)
Andruw Jones becomes the 8th member of the 1997 Braves to be inducted into the HOF.
It should be 9 because Kenny Lofton was on that team
Give it time. He won’t be denied forever.
The 90s indians really have 4 more HOF guys
Lofton should and I really think he will at some point. I think appreciation and recognition for him is growing over time. I think he really suffered from being on the ballot at the same time as a ton of massive names, and I also wonder if his constant bouncing around clubs has hurt
Belle gets more credit as time goes on and I’m hopeful, but his abrasive (to put it lightly lol) personality will always hold him back. It’s also worth noting he got less than 4 on the veterans ballot in 23. And his career length and some counting stats are low by HOF standards so we’ll have to see as time goes on if the Hall starts to shift towards induction for the guys with crazy peaks but pedestrian career numbers
Ramirez would be in if not for roids, and maybe down the line he’ll get in on veteran’s, but seeing how the veterans voted Bonds and Clemens, ARod’s kinda plateaued, and Ramirez himself hit a wall in the mid 30%, I’m not optimistic regarding his chances
Omar I’m convinced was on the path to induction (49.1% after year 4) prior to it coming out that he’s a piece of shit character-wise. Now that that’s known, I don’t see him ever getting in
One likes to think that HoF voters aren’t so easily swayed, but unfortunately I think his journeyman reputation at the end of his career did hurt him. He doesn’t get enough credit for how good he still was. Nobody remembers that Kenny Lofton had a 3.9 fWAR season with the Phillies or a 2.9 fWAR season at age 40.
The other 90s Indians guys are borderline for me for a variety of reasons but Lofton IMO is a slam-dunk first ballot Hall of Famer and one of the biggest snubs of the live ball era. Next time he’s on a ballot he’s in for sure.
Not to be morbid but theres probably a lot of really old hall vc voters who were No’s for Clemens/Bonds who just wont be around in 10-15 years. I think their will be a softening towards the Roid era guys,it’s just a question if it’s enough softening for some of the A-rod/manny types to get in 15- 20 or so years from now,
On the other hand, they let Beltran in when he was accused of being one of the ringleaders in the Astros sign stealing scandal, so who knows.
The BBWAA voting bloc has already changed a lot toward not wanting to be the cheating police. Current crop of voters would have absolutely put Bonds in. They may still put A-Rod and Pettitte in. (Manny has other issues lol)
He even has one less wife beating on his record than Andruw!
Wow 8 hall of famers on one team. Surely they won the World Series that year. Right? Right??
At least that team won A title!
I remember feeling like we would go three or four straight after we won. Didn’t think we’d have to wait until the 2020s
We should have had 1996 too. Jim fucking Leyritz.
Mark fucking Wohlers, you mean.
I was at the game in Turner Field a couple seasons later when he officially imploded for good and blew what should have been a Maddux win.
Damn you Eric Gregg
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper, McGriff, Bobby Cox, Andruw…. who am I missing? Did Kenny Lofton get in recently?
Edit: Figured it out. Schuerholz.
Manger Bobby Cox and GM John Schuerholz.
Was in Cooperstown for the induction of Maddux, Glavine and Cox (Big Hurt too). Awesome.
What a great class. Other than the Mets getting slapped around, it’s still my favorite era of baseball.
He was on the ballot only once, back in 2013
I thank ted turner for all time for blessing us with the braves on tbs. I became an instant fan and I am thankful to be able to have watched them alongside the Rangers.
I can’t imagine rooting against the Braves after a childhood of always having them available on my team’s off-days. What a cost/benefit genius Ted was, getting kids hooked on Gilligan’s Island reruns and Braves baseball.
Are you a 90s kid if you weren’t blessed with the Braves on TBS and the Bulls on WGN? I didn’t need anything more than basic cable.
In the 90s the Cubs had a lot of day games on WGN. Used to watch them during the summer. I was a latch key kid, like a lot of kids in that era, and my parents just let me take care of myself during the summer.
I grew up an A’s fan, but Greg Maddux is my favorite pitcher ever because I watched the Braves so much on TBS and loved watching him pitch.
Plus Kenny Lofton who absolutely should be.
Those braves team were fun to watch. Always had them on TBS if I wasn’t watching the giants
Chipper, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Andruw, McGriff… who else? Or are you including non-players, so Cox and Schuerholz?
Cheaters and Wifebeaters lets gooooooo
i thought this sub thought cheating was OK as long as you were already a hall of famer when you cheat. or is that only if you turn yourself into a swelled-headed behemoth
It’s the double standard for me. I think it’s fucking insane that Beltran gets in but Bonds doesn’t. Both deserve it.
This might be a spicy take, but steroids in the early 00s is “less bad” than leading an organization wide, systemic cheating ring.
People love to be like, well even if bonds deserves to get in he’s a wife beating piece of shit! Which yeah, maybe.
But here’s a ballot that’s literally Barry bonds in the aggregate - one cheater and one wife beater lmao (and they cumulatively have less WAR than bonds by himself!)
Pulling the character clause is always funny to me because…have you seen who else is in this Hall of Fame?
Doesn’t mean you gotta keep putting shitty people in
Yeah but if you’re gonna put shitty people in at least put in the shitty people that were much better at baseball than these two dudes
The character clause is really “were they friendly to the writers?” and not so much “were they a decent human being?”
And that “Barry Bonds in aggregate” is still 30 WAR behind actually Barry Bonds (Beltran 70, Jones 62.7, Barry 162.8)
Imagine the numbers Bonds could have put up if he could be in two games at once.
Just out of speculation, Beltran and Jones played 4782 combined games, and at Bonds’ 8.8 WAR/162, that would have him at 260 career WAR.
The HoF put the guy who literally was responsible for the racial segregation of baseball into the Hall of Fame. (Cap Anson) Like… imagine being responsible for the greatest stain in baseball’s history and being in the HoF, but then denying Bonds in.
Dawg your flair wtf?
Clearly a massive Kris Bryant fan
Giants fan born and bred, lived in Denver/other CO for like 12 years.
If I’m gonna spend money on Rockies tickets I might as well emotionally invest in the team a little. Push comes to shove, it’s Giants 100%.
They don’t even both deserve it to the same level though. Beltran has a strong HOF case based on numbers, Barry Bonds is on another planet.
Thats where im at.
Beltran had a no doubter HOF career. His “punishment” is not being first ballot. You get rid of the Astros scandal and he’s still put up otherworldly numbers.
ARod, Manny actively took roids that put questions in of their careers. And looking at the numbers, i still think ARod could end up making the hall
I have more concerns about Jones. Because fucking gross celebrating abusers
You get rid of the Astros scandal and he’s still put up otherworldly numbers
So did Bonds pre-steroids
Bonds 1986-1999: 103.7 WAR, 2010 hits, 445 HRs, .968 OPS, 3 MVPs, 7 top-5 MVP finishes, 8 GGs, 7 SS… Barry Bonds pre-steroids was more valuable by WAR than Albert Pujols, Randy Johnson, Morgan, Spahn, Yastrzemski, Ripken, Beltre, Foxx, yadda yadda yadda.
I don’t think he goes in first ballot without the scandal anyway.
It’s overblown how much of a factor that was. Beltran was an exceptional player, absolutely a HOFer, but he’s not a 1st ballot type.
I’ll just pull up a “random” (I’m familiar with them) player for this argument. Bagwell was probably better overall than Beltran, and went in on the 7th ballot with the only real mark against him being a fairly unfounded steroid accusation that never had evidence behind it.
4th ballot is arguably exactly where a player of his caliber would be expected to go in.
Beltran, an incredible player, but no Ichiro or Jeter.
I’m of the opinion that the character clause doesn’t really exist, and if it does it’s only applied very selectively. It only seems to have affected players like Schilling (who would probably have been inducted anyway if he didn’t straight up ask the writers not to vote for him), and Vizquel (whose offenses were exposed while he was on the ballot and whose case was already marginal to begin with). Otherwise the writers seem to only care about on-field offenses (and ones that affected the players stats, to be specific).
You can’t get rid of the Astros scandal.
Actual character doesn’t matter, just how nice you are towards the writers.
This is why I don’t take HOF discourse seriously and neither should you.
Cheating at a sport is definitely equal to beating your spouse guys
In the regular world, no, of course not.
With regards to awards directly related to your performance in that sport, it means more.
Marvin Harrison killed a guy and no one gives a shit about it.
Same with Ray Lewis (allegedly) but he did a funny dance so it’s ok
More like this is the all time “the character clause only applies sometimes” ballot
Only the 9th and 10th CF to get into the hall. Wow, that’s hard to believe
Edit: should have said voted in by BBWAA. More players are in than that voted in via other methods.
How about this: only 8th and 9th CF to play post 1955
…via the BBWAA. They’re the 20th and 21st CF in total.
6 of the other 8 BBWAA inductees are inner-circle guys- Mays, Cobb, Mantle, and Griffey were all easy first-ballot choices, Speaker only took two tries to get in because he retired early enough to get onto the first ballot in 1936 and it was crazy stacked, DiMaggio took a few tries to get in only because there wasn’t a 5-year waiting period yet when he retired. The last two are Duke Snider and Kirby Puckett, pretty good themselves.
And I’m guessing the “9th and 10th” factoid is just not counting Andre Dawson as a center fielder? He played more games in right field than center but had all his best years as a center fielder.
DiMaggio being a fourth-ballot hall of famer is some fun trivia. I had no idea
Ok, should have said voted in my the BBWAA. The rest were voted in by the veteran committee
CF has really good top end talent in history (Mays, Cobb, Speaker, & Mantle are a great top 4 in terms of WAR), but the depth hasn’t been there in history. Beltran’s 70 career bWAR is 8th highest.
Just a complete guess here, but could CFs switching positions later in their careers be a factor here at all?
Nope. Late into career doesn’t push them out of CF. Hunter is still listed as a CF for JAWS
Historically weren’t CF and SS more likely to have defense first players that didn’t hit as well.
It’s a position where defensive specialization has been prioritized over offense for a long time. It’s rare for someone to have a HoF caliber bat and still beat out the best outfielder defensively on a roster.
That’s crazy
Bonds deserves to be in if Beltran is.
Bonds might’ve been in by now if players still had up to 15 years on the ballot. He received more votes than Beltrán the last time they both were on the ballot.
Or if the voters weren’t a bunch uppity prisses that get their feelings hurt about shit all the time
I’ve been saying Bonds should be in if Ortiz is in.
Ortiz, Pudge, Bagwell, Piazza, Selig, All have connections to PEDS. The “Hall of Fame” has lost any credibility it had.
Bonds deserves to be in and it has nothing to do with Beltran
The fact that Carlos Beltran can be elected to the Hall of Fame after he was the focal point of a massive cheating scandal yet Barry Bonds isn’t, is such a sham.
And Barry bonds was 1000x better just so we’re clear
He was only the focal point because he retired after that season so he was the only player that got to be named. He’s also the only player to ever face any form of punishment from this scandal. Will this sub say the same thing when it’s time for Altuve to be voted on? AJ Hinch and Alex Cora still get to be managers, to me that’s bullshit.
He was the focal point because he is the one who told the team they were way behind the song stealing compared to other teams.
Someone should bang on a trash can during his acceptance speech.
Me in the crowd at Cooperstown during Beltran’s speech:
Dubya GLEEFULLY dodged them shoes, damn.
Impressive form. After the first dodge he pops right back up into a solid ready position.
Honestly, reporter threw two strikes as well.
of course he’s in the ready position. You can only fool W once, after that, he can’t get fooled again.
His little smile just kills me every time
This is like the ultimate Dodgers hate duo for a hall of fame class, adding in Andruw’s collapse as soon as he signed his LA contract lmao
He was so bad on the Dodgers it was honestly impressive
Didn’t Carlos Beltran design the 2017 Houston Astros cheating scandal?
Yes. Cora also…
Can’t believe Cora is still employed in MLB.
Kinda goes to show that the “cheating scandal” actually isn’t that serious, and that a lot of other teams must’ve been doing shady stuff behind the scenes. Astros just became the fall guy
AJ Hinch is still trying to stop him from doing it.
“Don’t do this!”
Team continues to do it
“Ahh well I tried…”
This is the first I’m hearing of this.
Edit: lol I didn’t think anyone would think I was being serious
This is old news. Beltran and Cora were known as the ringleaders with Beltran (coming from the Yankees) telling the Astros they were behind the times of sign stealing. Here’s an article from 2020
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1600638/2020/02/11/details-emerge-about-carlos-beltrans-role-in-the-2017-astros-clubhouse-and-the-teams-sign-stealing-scheme/
From what I recall, Beltran basically entered our clubhouse and pretty immediately went to work coming up with the trash can scheme. Feel like I recall there being a quote about him convincing people by saying other teams were engaging in similar schemes, but it’s been a long time since I read that stuff. Was very much the ringleader, though.
Beltran? The New York financier Met? No way. Nice try.
I can clear this up, let me call Alex Cora.
Beltran being in and Bonds not being in is a fucking joke
Ortiz being in and Bonds not being in is more of a fucking joke
Put them both in and include the bad baseball stuff on their HOF plaque. I’d rather they do that than pick and choose what kind of cheating is acceptable.
redditors furiously typing
Im anti-Bonds being in and even I think it’s an absolute joke Beltran is in
Because (even if I disagree with you) you’re consistent, something very difficult for baseball writers.
I got a question for the majority posting in here: do you realize how unhinged you people are?
Given this is Reddit, almost certainly not.
It’s funny how most people ITT are angrier about cheating at a children’s game than they are about domestic violence. If you’re gonna be outraged, you should at least be consistent about it.
Sorry, I don’t think cheating or domestic abuse should be rewarded by putting that person on a pedestal.
Royals?
2015!
Thanks, fuck you too!
Unarguable point there
There’s literally no chance he goes in as a Royal, but could you imagine? I’d certainly get a good laugh out of it.
He’s going in as a Met.
Edit: he just said on MLB network that he needs to think about it.
I hope to god that’s a “I want to make everyone feel special so I’m going to pretend to think about it” answer
Ah yes, Beltran who checks notes only directly engineered one of the largest instances of cheating in the sport’s history.
That you know of
Andruw Jones
Better late than never.
Andruw Jones really beat the odds eh?
He just can’t stop beating things
I would love someone to expand upon the Jones domestic abuse case. Andruw Jones is still married to Nicole Derick Jones and it does sound like donates to domestic abuse charities and is conciliatory, so I would be interested in someone fact checking for me.
Being against Beltran for cheating I understand.
He grabbed her by the neck, dragged her down the stairs, and threatened to kill her. He eventually plead guilty and was given probation.
Sorry man, Beltran’s stats are fine but his getting caught red handed cheating the sport should 100% keep him out of the hall.
Can someone induct Keith Hernandez please?
The HOF draws the line at spitters.
Wanna cheat for a ring? You too could make the HoF.
The Yankees were literally doing the same thing. They must suck that much
There you have it. Only Hinch, the GM, and Cora were punished in any way. One of the main architects of the sign stealing 2017 season just got immortalized.
Certain types of cheating are ok, but other types of cheating aren’t?
Seems like that’s the message the voters are sending.
Beltran was fired from his position as manager of the mets for the 2021 season
Congrats to Andruw
There may be boos at Beltran’s speech.
The hall of fame crowd is not /r/baseball
I wonder what implications this has on Altuve’s case/chances. Beltran played a bigger part in 2017, but Altuve has gotten far more public backlash.
Altuve is getting in. I feel for years the media has been pleading people to forgive him anyways.
If Beltran is in, Altuve should 100% be there too.
Altuve was in regardless of Beltran getting in
I always felt that if Beltran gets in, Altuve is getting in.
How the general populace of baseball fans/voters feel and how r/baseball largely feels are not always synchronous. We’re seeing that right now. If r/baseball had their way, it would be a different story.
Congrats to Andruw Jones very well deserved
Now induct Jim Edmonds, 2 less WAR, 2 less Gold Gloves but significantly better OPS .903 vs .823 and OPS+ 132 vs 111. Edmonds was the more well rounded player and only had 40 ish home runs less
I agree Jim Edmonds as a player is criminally underrated
Can someone explain to me how Carlos Beltran (or anyone on the ‘17 Astros) is HoF eligible? He was literally the only guy personally named in the 2017 Astros scandal report. Not hating, I’m just genuinely curious
Beltran is a cheating pos
All my homies hate Beltran
That’s my Curacao Kid!
Beltran getting in is a joke. What kind of cheating is and isn’t permitted in baseball? You either accept that things happen and enshrine players with context or you don’t. Ortiz took PEDs and he’s in. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens took PEDs and they’re out. Beltran orchestrated the Astros’ cheating scandal and is in. I don’t even care what standard we settle on, but we can just settle on something that makes sense?
This thread is just further proof Reddit really is a depressing crown.
About time baby!
I can’t possibly be the only one crying exactly zero tears for Bonds here, right
The Astros scandal will hang high in the Beltran discussion, but imo he was a clear cut hall guy pre Astros and thats enough for me to think he belongs
Andruw Jones belongs in the hall too. Had the WAR and all that. His personal life is obviously a grim discussion topic but I maintain it’s supposed to be a baseball hall of fame, not hall of good people
“Architect of one of the biggest cheating scandals in MLB history gets elected” is a better headline but I get why MLB wants to pretend that didn’t happen.
Well, Beltran can suck a dick. That’s bullshit. They hold out loads of guys for steroids, but you’re the kingpin of an organized cheating scandal and that’s just fine? The HoF voters are just determined to show what a joke they are.
I get that everyone wants to pin this whole league-wide scandal problem on one guy, Beltran, a player to come up with this idea. Yet the Yankees had a letter from MLB about being fined for their cheating that went on in 2016, a year prior to the Astros scandal and a year where Beltran was on the roster of the NYY.
Tldr; he brought this idea to the Astros brass because it was already in-use with NYY.
As a player, he just gave inside info onto what other teams were doing. I don’t necessarily blame him fully
Steroids users cheated less than trashcan bangers