[Jones] Carlos Beltrán is a Hall of Famer.
Seems like the Astros cheating scandal was not a major factor for voters
I suppose the ‘real’ test will be Altuve/Bregman/Correa.
Altuve is a HOFer & Correa is Hall of Good
Yeah, I definitely think Altuve will get in.
Bregman/Correa are ‘it depends’
Springer is ‘needs a miracle’
If you only watched postseasons, springer is a shoe in
If the Jays had won last year I probably would have slotted Springer over Bregman and Correa HOF chance wise.
Bro what lol Altuve is the only one who remotely should get in and with that cheating scandal fuck him.
If Shoeless Joe isn’t in, Altuve shouldn’t get in.
Probably the same for Mad Bum. He’d be unanimously voted in if you only watch his postseason performances.
Yeah tbh Mad Bum’s goal should be “get 5%” because it keeps you in the conversation. Jones started out at just above 7% and he didn’t even need all 10 years to get elected.
For some reason it’s harder for me to envision Springer, maybe that’s my Giants bias. But idk, 40something WAR with postseason domination, I gotta think about it.
Yeah neither Springer nor Mad Bum should be anywhere near the hall.
Man, I think this is crazy. I can see not putting Springer in, but Bumgarner feels like a no-brainer.
With lower than 40 WAR and no Cy Young, it’s not even close. An extreme example in Koufax got in because he not only dominated the World Series but he also dominated the regular season (3 Cy Youngs and 1 MVP).
Yeah, with Beltran getting in, and Kent getting in, I can’t see a world where Altuve isn’t in, barring him literally falling off a cliff.
He might wait a year or two like Beltran, but he’s getting in
He has four years left on his contract and if he plays regularly for 4 years, he’ll either get to 3,000 hits or get close.
Yeah, but with the impending lockout, idk how much that’ll take away from his total.
That reminds me, a comment i saw on the former bird app said “the Dodgers are forcing a lockout to prevent Altuve from reaching 3,000 hits as revenge for 2017”
Gave me a good chuckle, ngl.
Why would I watch the post season
What is the postseason but a mere fight for a piece of metal
I really don’t know. It’s not like y’all do anything when you get there.
I think Altuve is going to have to squeak his way to 60 WAR to get in. A lot of accolades but the negative dWAR is taking its toll.
Altuve’s at 60 fWAR already.
DRS really hates him, but it’s also the defensive measurement more prone to outliers. Quite a bit of Altuve’s career happened when Statcast/OAA were already available and whether his defense from ‘22-‘24 was -41 runs below average (DRS) or 0 runs below average (StatCast) swings his career WAR quite a bit.
Nah if they didn’t punish the architect for the system how can they punish the other guys? Plus the bangs for Altuve were low anyway people could excuse him away.
I think Altuve gets in easily. Not sure the other two are HOF’ers anyway
Yeah, I dunno if Correa gets in or not, and I really don’t care if Bregman does personally, but Altuve seems like a shoe-in. Especially after today.
Are Bregman and Correa really on a HOF path? I’m not trying to be an Astros hater. I’m just looking at their career war and how old they are. The tough thing with them is they’re already on the bubble. It was already going to be a debate. Altuve is a shoe in I think even with the cheating. I think the real test is over. They don’t care. They let one in and if Bregman and Correa put the numbers up while it will be a debate It will be your normal debate that you see with any other player. The cheating will not be held against them. 🤷♂️
Unless either Bregman or Correa put together a couple incredible seasons, I don’t see them getting in. They don’t have the sustained success I think is required.
It’s a long shot but not impossible. But by the time Altuve is up the voters will be even more in their favor. Unless even newer voters feel differently about the 17⁄18 cheating. But I think this sets a clear precedent of how it will be handled. I’m honestly more curious about PED players moving forward. They are few and far between and not many of them have HOF careers which is probably why they used. But if A-Rod isn’t in, Manny isn’t in. Does someone like Tatis have a chance? Or does ONE PED suspension anywhere in your career invalidate your entire career? Unless you’re well liked. See that’s what’s annoying with the PED logic. There is none. There are people in who used and people out who used. So which is it where’s the line?
I think for a lot of PED users, I’d make the argument that it depends on how much it changed your career & stat numbers. Someone like Bonds arguably got 40 WAR from PEDs, while others were using it for their entire career. Tatis got busted early, but if he continues playing well for another 10 years, I could see him making it.
IDK Though, it’s a really weird & tricky line. I agree that if voters were consistent, Tatis wouldn’t get in either, but we won’t know that for another 15+ years.
But like what’s the difference between David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez 🤷♂️ The PED issue feels so arbitrary and based off of vibes like it’s 100% if you’re cool and have the stats You can be forgiven for steroid use. I think if Bonds and A-Rod were more humble throughout their career and post career endeavors they would have done better with the votes. But even without PEDs these guys weren’t as likable as Griffey and 4 dudes found issue enough with him not to vote.
The fact the Pettitte got more votes than ARod tells you all you need to know about voter inconsistency
Or any publicly posted ballot. You either vote for all of them or none of them and too many of these voters have an unspoken criteria of how they are judging steroid use.
Are Bregman and Correa really on a HOF path?
I think they’re borderline , maybe, they’re 32⁄31 respectively. Depends on how hard they fall off in their 30s.
Altuve is the only one I think is a lock.
Even I know he’s a lock and think the cheating won’t even be talked about. Especially with Altuve. As much as I can say if one person on the team cheats the whole team cheats. Which I do agree to that logic. I also know the other facts and know how Altuve basically never used it himself. It’s easy to give him the shoeless Joe treatment (if the league would ever do the right thing about that)
If Altuve doesn’t make it for cheating, then Mookie shouldn’t either, and I doubt you’ll find many people with that opinion, especially on here.
Mookie and the Red Sox don’t get enough shit. I personally don’t see 18 any different than 17. I almost wish we got a fuller investigation with broader punishments even if it meant more teams got punished. The slap on the wrist y’all got because the league didn’t want another steroid era level scandal. They tried to end it as quickly as possible. But for the sake of the game I wish we knew more and there was more of a universal punishment for anyone involved.
Fully agree, Astros were the fall guy but it was clearly a rampant problem considering the league sent out a memo telling everyone to cut it out in 2017. Maybe in 10 years we’ll get a bunch of retired players to talk.
If any of these Astros write a memoir it would sell like hotcakes. Someone’s got to do it at the end of their career. What’s there to lose? I want the 2042 25th anniversary tell all special with Kershaw interviewing everyone.
Correa, maybe? Just maybe? I don’t really know.
Bregman, probably not.
bregman has a better chance imo, a lot healthier and also has an mvp runner-up under his belt even if correa is objectively more valuable when he plays
Edited in Bregman.
Yea Beltran was probably a HoF before he got to Houston. Had he gone to another team, it’d probably be no question Kind of like Bonds was a HoF before the steroids. Obviously not nearly as god like but similar situation
Altuve will get in because he didn’t actually do anything
Baseball seemed content to sweep it under the rug.
Because the people involved threatened to go full Canseco
I mean it’s just a piece of metal, who cares?
Because if they had to acknowledge Jim Crane was in on it, they’d have to make him sell the team
He would have been 1st ballot if not for the scandal.
Wow, quite the punishment.
Losing your only management job opportunity and having to wait an additional 4 years to be elected into the Hall of Fame is a much bigger punishment than the rest of the players involved have received so far. I say so far because most likely guys like Correa and Bregman, if they end up with legit Hall of Fame cases at the end of their careers will likely get the same slap on the wrists from the writers as their way of punishing them since the league did not. I don’t expect Altuve to get the same treatment but it is what it is.
You can think it wasn’t enough, but it clearly mattered to the voters at least a bit.
Kept him out the hall for like 2 years longer had he not
But yeah a little embarrassing imo and sets a dangerous precedent
I mean it was the last year of his career which wasn’t very good, so it just hurts his rep a little
Not really comparable to the guys who did steroids for multiple years and changed their career trajectory completely
Yeah, I’m surprised. If using steroids can keep you out of the Hall of Fame despite having a HoF-worthy career before using them, I would have thought the level of cheating the Astros did would also be disqualifying.
It makes sense when the belief among several players and writers is that the Astros weren’t the only ones to do it.
And, sign stealing was a part of the game, the only issue was using electronic means to do so, which was obviously a big no no.
I know a lot of people don’t like this, but it really does make sense to think that a majority of the writers just don’t see Trashcangate as a big of a deal as steroids.
Its been 7 years and there’s still zero evidence that any team ran a similar sign stealing system during the 2017 MLB season.
There was zero known evidence of the Astros cheating until there was a whistleblower.
Numerous players have indicated it was a league wide issue like Rosenthal reported in his initial article.
Doesn’t change anything imo. The Astros cheated. Even if 28 other teams cheated, they still broke the rules and that’s bad.
Beltran literally said that he got the scheme that he put into place here from you guys lol
Do you have proof that we used the same method of cheating besides the Apple Warch thing that we stopped doing when the commissioner told us to? Or are we gonna have the same conversation that Astros and Yankees fans have on this sub for the past 7 years?
How about this: we’ll stop bringing up how Beltran got the idea to bang on trash cans from you guys, when yall stop bringing up the supposed buzzer that Altuve wore when he took Chapman yard.
Deal?
Sure. Both of those are false and have no proof to them so I’m fine with that. Doesn’t make Beltran less of a cheater.
Cool.
Anyways, my original comment was referring to guys like Sale, Votto, and Boob all saying that the Astros weren’t the only ones to do it.
I honestly don’t know if we’ll get any definitive proof on whether other teams used a similar scheme, or which teams if any did so. My original point was about the belief among some people associated with the game, including people who cast the ballots.
Sale, Votto, and Boob also never offered any actual evidence other than “trust me bro”. Did any of them even clarify what “it” was?
There’s been no evidence that anyone did what the asstros did, which was much more than just using the replay room to decode signs.
This dude is getting wires crossed. Beltran said the Astros were behind the times when it came to using a live feed to decode signs in game which y’all obviously were doing what with the Apple Watches. The trash can banging to signal to the batters box was Cora’s idea.
As it shouldn’t be
Turns out there aren’t a lot of /r/baseball users that vote for the HOF
Why would it be? It was just over a piece of metal.
More like the original thing was a smokescreen to distract that some of the owners were on the Epstein list
His 2017 Astros stint was never affecting his HOF case even with all the baggage. He could’ve retired in 2016 after playing in Texas He actually put up negative war anyways that year at the age of 40 lol. Even if the ring wasn’t tainted it wasn’t the accomplishment pushed him into the Hall. It’s not like he did this throughout his whole career Likely first ballot without the scandal
It was major enough to make a guy who would otherwise be a first ballot hall of famer take a few years to get in.
[deleted]
If it was a “major factor” he wouldn’t have ever been voted in at all.
A lot of them voters are oldheads like me who don’t think in game cheating is such a big scandal. It’s been going on since the game was invented. Guys who threw spit and sandpaper balls every year are in the HOF for example.
I had a coach back in the day who taught us catcher signals and when we were on 2nd base we would give a sign to the batter on what pitch is being thrown.
You know that relaying a sign from 2nd base as a runner is ALOT different than planting cameras in CF, to relay the signal to the dugout and then bang on cans or trigger an electronic device.
One is part of the game and the other can ruin the game.
Shame on them. Does sportsmanship matter anymore
Why should it be? He played for them very late in his career and didn’t affect his stats in any meaningful way
He probably saw it coming. Good for him
He heard it coming first
My favorite thing about the Beltran discourse is that it’s very convenient to believe he only started cheating in 2017, and there’s just nooooo way he cheated at his stops before that.
Toxic culture down in Houston what can I say.
Nah fuck that cheater, he was also the only actual player named in the report
Yeah Jomboy for HoF instead even though he had the Andruw Jones career trajectory
Congrats!*
Nice
Then why aren’t ARod, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Sheffield, and Ramirez since we don’t care about cheating the game?
Because writers decided long ago that PEDs are a worse crime against the sport than sign stealing. Different kinds of cheating have different punishments. Whether or not that’s fair is up to the individual, but I think it’s always been fairly clear that the general public doesn’t think sign stealing is as bad as doping
Unless you’re Bud Selig I guess
Because writers decided long ago that PEDs are a worse crime against the sport than sign stealing
Which is correct.
Institutional cheating to the point that the stadium dimensions change to accommodate it, the GM is in on it, and the executives are e-mailing the scouts like “All this cheating we’re doing is awesome! Let’s think of ways to cheat more!” is far beyond the pale of normal sign stealing
Where’s your evidence that the stadium dimensions changed?
Also can you remind me where Beltran was the year before he masterminded our cheating scheme?
Literally in the stadium??? You got rid of Tal’s Hill the same offseason you installed the camera that all the sign-stealing was based on???
What are you babbling about. Plenty of PED users have been voted in
Have you ever played baseball before? Knowing what’s coming >>> bigger muscles.
Same reason why David Ortiz is in the HOF but those guys aren’t.
The HOF is a boys club.
The reason Ortiz is in is plausible deniability.
I know people love talking about him but the only actual evidence he doped is, as far as anyone has proof of, not evidence.
He failed a test that the MLB alleges tested for many substances, some of which weren’t banned. Then they made it clear a positive test on that test wouldn’t equal a suspension for that very reason. And the list was leaked when it wasn’t supposed to be made public specifically so the public didn’t make assumptions that all failed tests meant doping.
Ortiz then went on to never test negative ever again. Nor did he test negative before.
Isn’t the “not so proof” that Ortiz juiced the same as the “proof” that Sosa juiced? I think I read that on Reddit before, but I could be wrong.
Weird that Sosa gets thrown in with everyone else
I think you’re right.
The problem I believe people have with him was a notable change in his size the year he started mashing 30+
And he was kind of a dick.
Cheater. If he’s in Bonds should be in.
You don’t understand, Bonds cheated towards the end of his career and was too good. Beltran cheated towards the end of his career but played bad. That makes it all ok.
There’s no doubt that the roids helped Bonds put up sick numbers but you also can’t just give anyone roids snd do the things he did
Always said have a separate section in the hall or just write it on their plaques At the end of the day it’s the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Ethical Players. They literally just voted in a wife beater like give me a break
Nah they just got it wrong here. The HoF is entirely based on the game of baseball and if you cheat then you should forfeit your right to being in. They get to keep their money, stats, and fame. If they wanted in the hall then they shouldn’t have cheated.
Baseball HOF has zero credibility. By their standards Ortiz and Mariano should be retroactively removed for PEDs and covering up SA of a minor, respectively
Nah, I’m good with as few of them as possible
(please go in as a Royal, forget that the Glass family wouldn’t pay you $1 million more for an extension)
Beltrán wanted to stay. The Royals had a deal negotiated with him - they went around Boras - and had a deal in place for three years for \(25 million.....Way under the market deal. They took it upstairs and Dan Glass said “well, get him to sign it for \)24 million.”….They took it back to Beltrán and not surprisingly he was ticked off and he broke off negotiations.
i believe he said he’s going in as a Met
He still works for us and has for years. So I think if it’s his choice he would go in as a Met.
Could see the hall of fame forcing him in as a blank but we will see
Definitely
he’s going in as a giant for sure
He should go in with the team that he won a championship* with.
Cheapskate.
Second longest tenured royals player to make the hall. Harmon Killebrew, Orlando Cepeda and Gaylord Perry were previously tied for second with 1 year as a Royal.
What a joke
Cheater.
The HoF is a fucking hypocritical joke
That’s fine but now do Bonds
🗑️🗑️🗑️🗑️
So cheating… apparently okay sometimes?
I mean, Gaylord Perry literally wrote a book about all the ways he cheated while he was still an active player and he was elected in his third year of eligibility lol. Hall of Fame is a boys club, it’s about whether or not they like you, not what you did.
I asked David Ortiz. He said he’d get to the bottom of it but isn’t answering my texts ):
Woohoo! Will likely be the third guy in the hall with a Mets cap.
Might as well wear an Asstros
Great guy to represent too! Being a part of a cheating scandal that forced your team to fire him as manager lol.
Just cause you’re miserable doesn’t mean I am lol
I’m adopting this mentality for the rest of my life
A Yankees fan trying to rib a Mets fan about cheating? Lmao
You know the Yankees got caught doing pretty much the same thing right?
And had no issues with cheaters on their team in the past as well. That’s why I think the idea of a Yankees fan taking shots at a Mets fan for being a fan of a cheater is silly and hypocritical.
Your team won a World Series off one of the biggest cheating scandals in sports. You have zero proof any other team did it on the level the asstros cheated a WS win.
But when you start watching in 2017 its not surprising you dont really love baseball that much to care. Either way its an * forever! Cope!
The irony of saying cope at the end of that rant. Lmao
I’ll believe players like Joey Votto and Chris Bassit over Smithers9713 on whether or not illegal sign stealing was a league wide problem or not.
Lol yea thats not evidence at all. I dont even want your next notification to appear its so unimportant and will provide nothing of value to me. Cya!
Built a whole ass stadium designed to pad their numbers and still mad about trash can drums.
Hall of Famer*
congratulations to jose altuve for entering the hall of fame
Cheaters prosper.
Baseball reflecting everyday reality in the USA.
Always been true. Look at the Astros, Dodgers and Yankees. Go all the way back to the Giants in ‘51.
Jose altuve welcome to the hall!!!
So we can put in Bonds, Clemens, ARod, etc. in now right?
So you can cheat as long as you didn’t do steroids
Cheater
Hell yeah. Well deserved!
That’s unfortunate
Alright let Bonds in
Whoa
Absolute joke Hall
Guess that ole character clause got thrown out the window today.
Giants legend
That’s Forever Giant Carlos Beltrán to you!
A quarter of a season of Beltran only cost Zack Wheeler. What a deal!
It was a good idea at the time. I’ll stand by that.
Why didn’t Sabean know we only win in even years, is he stupid?
“I’m not an idiot”
Wow I’m amazed I thought for sure the sign stealing scandal was gonna keep him out for good
Why? There’s multiple known cheaters in the Hall already.
Hell, Gaylord Perry’s Hall of Fame page even directly talks about him doctoring baseballs:
He mixed an outstanding fastball and curve with a spitball, real or imagined. And though his reputation for doctoring the ball grew as his career progressed, and some speculated that it was not so much the spitball itself, as the threat of it – which baffled batters.
He mixed an outstanding fastball and curve with a spitball, real or imagined.
And though his reputation for doctoring the ball grew as his career progressed, and some speculated that it was not so much the spitball itself, as the threat of it – which baffled batters.
Because of how current it was and it’s still fresh in a lot of people’s mind
He’d been trending upward for a while and with this year’s debut class being pretty weak most people predicted he’d make it.
Was a nice hall of fame we had before they put cheating pieces of shit in. Might as well induct Pete Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Shoeless Joe, and all the rest.
I agree, Ortiz never should have been inducted.
Pedophile, wife beater, pedophile, innocent. Vs cheated in baseball. Truly all such heinous crimes /s
From bang bang to ring ring.
Let all the cheaters in now
Boooooooo
Steroids, no go. Cheating, a ok.
They’re both cheating. The Hall is inconsistent af.
All roid guys should make it now if this cheater got in. Hysterical how many Asstros and mets fans in here defending cheating lmao
If we’re going to allow this cheater, we should allow the all time greats who took steroids
Allow the guys who took steroids in then
I guess cheating is okay if you’re a nice guy ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Cheating only matters if you were mean to the voters apparently.
And beating your spouse only matters if you were mean to the voters apparently.
The baseball HOF is so stupid.
fuck carlos beltran
Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, etc. should all be in now.
Ew
r/baseball in shambles finding out that most people don’t care about 2017 nearly as much as they hoped.
My favorite is dodgers flairs who love Mookie, and Yankees flairs that believe Beltran wasn’t cheating there
Beltran cheating with the Yankees? Proof of that?
Just think it’s funny to believe he was the mastermind of cheating, but magically didn’t come up with this until 2017
Oh so its just a funny thought? You made it sound like a fact but seeing how your reply didnt have it and basically deflected, I dont want to see your next notification on my feed. Cya!
Dumbass
Astros fans love to try and muddy the waters and compare 2017 to 2018
“Cheating was ok when Mookie did it, because he plays for my team!”
Like I said, the vastly different schemes and whether they happened in the playoffs matter
But Astros fans are all shite anyways, they hate the dodgers even though the Astros cheated???
Doesn’t make sense
I don’t hate the Dodgers because the Astros cheated. I hate the Dodgers because they are the Dodgers.
Again, it’s only ok because he plays for you. Either he’s a cheater or he isn’t
Astros fans are all shite even tho dodgers fans leave giants fans in comas and attack anyone who isn’t wearing blue in that ugly ass stadium
They’re jealous because the Dodgers’ titles are legitimate.
Writers dont speak for the rest of us, kiss my ass.
You guys have one championship
Reddit is always, ALWAYS a bubble of weirdos. It doesn’t speak for the rest of us either. The Astros literally have two championships. It’s okay. Just move on. Ohhh…by the way. Beltran created the cheating system before he joined the Astros in 2017. The two years before then he played for the Rangers and the Yankees. Where do you think he learned it from lol
This is something a stunted teenager would post on tumblr
So can Bonds make it then? You know, since they don’t give a shit about cheating.
He’s also the ringleader of baseball’s biggest cheating scandal of the past century.
Do you think Beltran wasn’t involved in any sort of cheating in 2016 when he played for the Yankees and Rangers? When he joined the Astros in 2017 he told them they were behind the times on sign stealing.
No he joined the Astros in 2017 and all of a sudden devised a very complicated cheating scheme out of the blue
Well actually not because he hasn’t officially been inducted yet
Good!!
I hope my favorite team is trying their best to cheat and win WS while doing it and fucking over every other team they play, because there are zero repercussions and you still get to keep your championship banners in your stadium and all your guys still get to go to the hall of fame.
Would be stupid not to cheat in baseball at this point honestly.
Finally
That Rangers logo is gonna look sexy on his cap.
Good. He deserves it.