BlueThunder92 | Thunder

284 | 5 hours ago

only drawback of this list is that so many all time greats get drafted to AWFUL teams so I’m assuming they miss out on this due to their rookie season or first couple of seasons. Pretty much everyone one of these guys came into teams who either lucked into high draft picks on stable teams or were lower picks on already good teams.

isabelenglish

165 | 4 hours ago

That’s a good point (LeBron is a classic example with how bad that Cavs team was in his rookie year)

So, if we look at ANY 40,000 minute season span that are net positive every season:

Tim Duncan: 47,368 (1998–2016)
LeBron James: 46,933 (2005–2021)
Dirk Nowitzki: 43,353 (2001–2016)
James Harden: 41,080 (2010–2025)

And even with that - I can really appreciate a rookie being able to come into the league and integrate as a winning piece on a quality team. I think that’s a lot easier said than done

Throwthisawayagainst

43 | 3 hours ago

Now do a list of all nba players who were a net negative for the season they made that team

isabelenglish

36 | an hour ago

For All NBA? Sure:

Tracy McGrady (2004) -9.6 Net Rating, All-NBA 2nd Team
Kobe Bryant (2005) -2.3 Net Rating, All-NBA 3rd Team
DeMarcus Cousins (2016) -2.4 Net Rating, All-NBA 2nd Team
LeBron James (2025) -1.1 Net Rating, All-NBA 2nd Team

EDIT: Looking at it, this kind of a gross list to be on

EmbarrassedRing7806

6 | 34 minutes ago

There was an interesting ESPN article on LeBron’s +/- last season

One major source of luck in the modern NBA is 3-point percentage, which can vacillate wildly from game to game and lineup to lineup. And when James is on the court this season, the Lakers are making fewer 3s – even though James himself has one of the best 3-point marks (39.6%) in L.A.’s rotation.

With James on the court, the Lakers are making 34.4% of their 3-point attempts, which would rank 25th in the NBA. Without James, though, they’re up at 38.1%, which would rank third. This gap emerges even though the Lakers are generating better looks when James is playing – “butt-naked, wide-open” looks, in forward Dorian Finney-Smith’s telling – according to Second Spectrum tracking based on factors such as shot distance, defender location and the player shooting.

…

The effect is even more pronounced on the defensive end. Lakers opponents are making 37.0% of their 3-point attempts when James is on the court, which would rank 27th – but when James is on the bench, Lakers opponents are making just 32.0% of their 3s, which would be the stingiest in the league.

This difference might make some intuitive sense, because you could expect that James’ waning defensive effort in his 40s is leading to more open 3s for his opponents. But Second Spectrum tracking shows the opposite is true. The Lakers heavily contest more 3-pointers when James is on the floor (51% of opponent attempts) than when he’s off (46% of attempts).

And Lakers opponents have a worse expected 3-point percentage when James is playing.

Numbers were crazy. Rui 37.7% from 3 with LeBron on, 52.0% with him off. Christie 32.3% -> 43.8%. Reaves 32.8% -> 42.7%.

isabelenglish

1 | 27 minutes ago

Maybe he should have been 3rd team last year. but he’s the least egregious pick for me out of the 4

DarthGamer2004 | Suns

1 | 5 minutes ago

LeBron deserved to be first team last year if anything. I think we all forget the narratives that were surrounding him before he went down with that injury in March.

Bladeneo

1 | 4 minutes ago

This is the issue with just looking at numbers without context. They went in a crazy run, largely without AD or Luka, against some very very difficult teams but +/- exists so apparently Bron should only be third team

adeptadapted

6 | 3 hours ago

Need to see that

isabelenglish

1 | 32 minutes ago

I made an EDIT

Putrid-Box4866 | Bulls

4 | 3 hours ago

Patrick Williams will top this list easily.

Antique_Pin5266

1 | 2 hours ago

probably these guys:

Kwame Brown

Jimmer Fredette

Anthony Bennett

Yi Jianlian

RemyGee | Lakers

3 | 3 hours ago

These players are obviously all time greats. But this stat is just great players on great teams that win a lot right? +/- is a team stat.

yoyoman831 | NBA

4 | 2 hours ago

Yes and no. +/- is a very fickle stat where on almost every occasion needs some type of context accompanied to have it make sense and not be misleading. That’s why a lot of people aren’t a fan of it since you can present it in a way that “fit the narrative” you’re trying to push.

Here we are looking at a span of more than 10+ years of data that includes often roster changes so it’s not fair to say “yea it’s just a team stat”.

The +/- here are basically looking at how much of a floor raiser these individual players are. If it’s “a team stat” then why aren’t some of these player’s teammate also on this list? Thus, in this instance the +/- are condensed into an individual manner instead of a team manner. There are still other tiny variables that come in play but not enough to affect what we’re trying to look at here.

lialialia20 | Timberwolves

32 | 4 hours ago

Name / Total Net Rating / Total Min / Net Rating Per 36

Tim Duncan / 8910 / 47368 / 6.77

LeBron James / 7354 / 59806 / 4.43

Dirk Nowitzki / 6541 / 51368 / 4.58

Stephen Curry / 6258 / 36028 / 6.25

Chris Paul / 6029 / 45836 / 4.74

Tony Parker / 5690 / 38279 / 5.35

Manu Ginobili / 5468 / 26859 / 7.33

Steve Nash / 5043 / 38069 / 4.77

Kevin Durant / 4982 / 42623 / 4.21

Kevin Garnett / 4913 48125 / 3.68

Shaquille O’Neal / 4887 / 30754 / 5.72

Kawhi Leonard / 4675 / 24294 / 6.93

Draymond Green / 4658 / 26250 / 6.39

James Harden / 4616 / 41369 / 4.02

Rasheed Wallace / 4390 / 34455 / 4.59

Augchm | 76ers

5 | an hour ago

Honestly, not saying the spurs trio weren’t amazing, but this shows how much the team matters for net rating.

ThatsMarvelous | SAS

1 | 6 minutes ago

My first thought when I saw Tony Parker wasn’t on the original list was wondering if he didn’t make it only because he spent that final year on the Hornets

Edit: OP answered this in another post, Parker’s first negative season was his age 35 season, still with the Spurs then obviously

holyrolodex | Lakers

1 | 37 minutes ago

That’s not the ONLY drawback…there are countless drawbacks to individual +/-

pokexchespin | BOS

46 | 5 hours ago

jokic being ahead of kawhi in minutes and tatum being kinda close is such an effective example of how much time he’s missed

[deleted]

-36 | 4 hours ago

[deleted]

w33b2 | NBA

13 | 3 hours ago

Does this have literally anything to do with the comment you replied to?

rocket_beer | Celtics

6 | 4 hours ago

Kawhi is awesome

JessieGemstone999 | Hornets

9 | 3 hours ago

Except for the cheating

JigglesTheBiggles | Heat

6 | 3 hours ago

And the weird Uncle Dennis stuff

Leather_War6079

46 | 5 hours ago

How many of these people’s net negative seasons have come in their final seasons before they retired? Yes hardens old but one poor final season and he’s no longer included in this stat. This is only a Duncan aged well stat if anything.

isabelenglish

68 | 4 hours ago

Duncan and Harden are the only ones to do this through 40K minutes

If you only look at a player’s first 30K minutes and exclude their later seasons, you add 2 guys:

Tony Parker (who had his first net negative season at age 35)
Paul Millsap! (first negative season at age 36, and retired after that)

HenrikCrown | Pelicans

26 | 4 hours ago

Trillsap was a PROBLEM

sloBrodanChillosevic | Supersonics

5 | 4 hours ago

I loved young Millsap with the Jazz. One of the best rebounders in the league and he learned to shoot threes. He was great.

isabelenglish

2 | 2 hours ago

He gives me all the signals of being a real winning player that never found a championship-level fit

TruWarierRecords | CHI

21 | 5 hours ago

Duncan aged well but was also a diminished player in his last few seasons.

Harden is still doing this with a ridiculous usage rate. Usually older players have 1-2 years keeping up on stats but tanking efficiency/net rating.

Before they become useful role players before aging out entirely.

Not_Different | Hornets

-4 | 5 hours ago

Duncan only seems diminished because he was still playing and prioritizing defense. Something Harden never cared about for a moment

mekarz

19 | 4 hours ago

He didnt even really diminish. Defense was always great but he deferred to the system and teammates offensively. He just took a different team ball role then became the role player when kawhi was ascending.

His per 36 is basically the same all the way until his last year.

TruWarierRecords | CHI

16 | 4 hours ago

It’s two sides of the same coin, Harden saves his energy for offense whilst Duncan (especially for the last half of his career) saved his energy for defense.

Harden also averages more minutes this season than Duncan did in any year past 2004.

Both are extremely impressive longevity wise.

ketchupwater8008

14 | 4 hours ago

I mean, if you can be a top 5-10 offensive engine in the game and still be a net positive then idk why you’re hating 😂 you’re just doing anything to diminish him and it’s laughable

eternali17 | Clippers

2 | 4 hours ago

Duncan was diminished but could still play defence. Harden hasn’t ever been a great defender but is still producing at all-star levels more often than not.

Ancient_Response_787

18 | 5 hours ago

I love Tim Duncan

HenrikCrown | Pelicans

7 | 4 hours ago

YouTube recommends me his highlights every month cycle or so and I’m just like “fuck yes I will watch the Stone Buddha doin work”

andrechan | Spurs

1 | 35 minutes ago

Stone Budha is a good one.

6000Skinny

3 | 5 hours ago

The Big Fundamental

Scoobersteve321 | Clippers [LAC] James Harden

10 | 5 hours ago

All time floor raiser

6000Skinny

9 | 5 hours ago

Look at those spurs alumni. we had a great run GSG!!!

yesimreallylikethat | Pelicans

8 | 5 hours ago

Tim Duncan was unstoppable

v32010 | Lakers

-10 | 4 hours ago

Seemed pretty stoppable in the Olympics

dill1234 | Knicks

9 | 3 hours ago

Reminder that Harden has been in the league for 17 seasons and hasn’t missed the playoffs. Victim of the nonsense ring culture

TonyTheJet | Jazz

5 | 4 hours ago

I’d love to see a similar list using one-off differential, which would not penalize a player for having bad teammates, but would just focus on whether the team was better with them on the floor. It would still have problems, but it would be nice to see.

mathmage | Warriors

5 | 3 hours ago

When you said net positive, I imagined you had looked at some impact metric, even on/off would do. This is kind of a nothing stat, in that while players who look good with this stat are good players, they’re distinguished from other good players mostly by having never played on bad teams.

heat_fan_ | Raptors

4 | 4 hours ago

Timmy was the Big Fundamental for a reason

brnccnt7

4 | 3 hours ago

3 Spurs teammates (Duncan, Ginobli, Kawhi) lol

And Kawhi and Harden are now teammates

Interesting

dwrek24 | Spurs

4 | 3 hours ago

Tim Duncan stan account activated!

How may I help you?

Dry-Invite-5837

2 | 4 hours ago

I think Jokic had a negative net rating in his 1st season.

No_Stomach_2341

3 | 3 hours ago

Wrong. +2.4 with him, - 7.3 without him, had a 9.7 net rating per 48 minutes

fuzzythinker | Nuggets

2 | 3 hours ago

Nice find. And thank you, we need posts like this to balance out the Harden hate posts whenever he has a bad game.

Hendo8888 | IND

1 | 5 hours ago

Can you give us the rest of the list? Who missed out by one year? Who had the worst record?

DuckieTheDuckie | Warriors

1 | 3 hours ago

This has everything to do with Duncan being on good teams out of his prime lol

Unusual_Log_4908 | Bulls

1 | 2 hours ago

That’s a cool stat

Pardonme23 | Lakers

1 | an hour ago

Because most get drafted to shitty teams

dating_derp | Warriors

1 | 18 minutes ago

I take it net positive is different from BPM? How do I check Stephs page to see what season(s) he was a negative?

isabelenglish

1 | 3 minutes ago

Yeah it’s definitely not BPM (that’s a data model)

This is the raw on court +/- per 100 when a player is on the court, over big sample sizes

Steph’s PBP is here on his page (he lost his minutes in his first 2 years in the league)

PsychologicalTough43

1 | 16 minutes ago

Hello all you Lebron James fans! Letruth is coming!

Poverty_Shoes | Nuggets

1 | 4 minutes ago

What is the “net positive on the court” metric here? Player +/- vs overall team +/-?

FH261169 | Mavericks

2 | 5 hours ago

Ironic all of them have rings except for Harden.

sorendiz | HOU

17 | 5 hours ago

explain how this is ironic

alexanderons | Rockets

6 | 4 hours ago

Like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife

MatchAffectionate951

2 | 4 hours ago

“a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.”

Oxford definition.

You would expect harden being one of two most winningest out of 64 stars to have a ring but he’s one of the only who doesn’t. It is ironic he’s consistently winning but hasn’t won a ring

ketchupwater8008

4 | 4 hours ago

It wouldn’t be. Harden didn’t win a ring, pretty simple. Idk what’s so ironic about it. Being a net positive doesn’t mean you’re gonna win a chip.

MatchAffectionate951

2 | 4 hours ago

Duh if u look at context but it’s funny/ironic if u look at this stat alone that harden is at the top and is one of the only that hasn’t won a ring.

Intelligent-Web-8017

6 | 4 hours ago

bro i feel like if cp3 didnt get injured harden would have won in his rockets era. same thing with kyrie at nets

liquidcalories | Rockets

9 | 3 hours ago

The 2018 Rockets win the title in most non-KDWarriors seasons, largely because of how good Harden was.

Bring on the downvotes from these fanbases but they are easily better than the Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets, Raptors seasons off the top of my head, probably more than that.

Intelligent-Web-8017

1 | 43 minutes ago

yea they obviously are. harden was too good that season and imo should have gotten in 2019 MVP. he had the most win shares as well. it sucks he couldnt get a ring in his prime but i still hope he can get one before he retires.

prettyflyforahentai

-1 | 3 hours ago

What is that based off of?

sctthuynh | GSW

0 | 5 hours ago

Very interesting find. Would be even better if you link the source.

isabelenglish

2 | 4 hours ago

Queried on basketball reference PBP data

sctthuynh | GSW

-1 | 4 hours ago

It’s customary to link sources when stating facts to avoid misinformation, give credit to original creators/sites, and allow readers to verify your information and explore topics further, essentially participating in a scholarly conversation and supporting your own arguments with evidence.

isabelenglish

3 | 4 hours ago

Sure: It’s play by play data that is sourced from basketball reference

sctthuynh | GSW

-7 | 4 hours ago

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isabelenglish

3 | 4 hours ago

Reported

logster2001 | Rockets

-1 | 4 hours ago

Harden is negative this season at -0.4

dabomtitan

0 | 2 hours ago

Duncan is the 🐐 . 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Serious-Wish4868

-4 | 4 hours ago

isnt this just another example of how flawed it is to use advanced stats/metrics to discuss/measure a players greatness. you have 2 player with very similar metrics but the results vary drastically. one player is a multiple time champion and the other is know as a choker.

Out of the 64 players in the tracking era that have 30K minutes played: only Tim Duncan and James Harden have been a net positive on the court in EVERY single one of their seasons