TrulyNotABot | Grizzlies

315 | 7 hours ago

In terms of HS+College+Pro it’s hard to argue otherwise

Guardax | Nuggets

159 | 6 hours ago

Bill Russell is the only other one. 2x NCAA champ, 11x NBA champ, Gold Medalist. Never lost a winner take all game

Tight_Ad2788

54 | 5 hours ago

That last one is just unreal - no one is ever doing that again. He was in a lot of them if I recall correctly too

logster2001 | Rockets

62 | 5 hours ago

Yeah he was 10-0 in game 7s. That’s more game 7 wins than anyone else in history. Most all time greats never even played in that many, let alone won all of them

Guardax | Nuggets

29 | 5 hours ago

And won every NCAA single elimination game and Olympic knockout game he was in

Tight_Ad2788

15 | 5 hours ago

Just ridiculous - why he deserves to be in the GOAT convo even with the competition factored in (which aren’t even as bad as people make it out to be)

legobowser | Supersonics

6 | 5 hours ago

The competition was that bad

Tight_Ad2788

24 | 4 hours ago

Every hear of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain? Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson? He owned every one of those guys

Akipella | Warriors

11 | 4 hours ago

True. What was lacking was the depth on those rosters, which Russell had.

HikmetLeGuin

15 | 4 hours ago

Some of those Lakers and 76ers teams were pretty deep.

One of the reasons we admire the Celtics’ depth is because they won a lot. It’s partly a chicken and egg situation. Did they win because they were deeper than everyone else? Or do we see them as especially deep because they won so much, making their depth players more famous? Probably a mix of both.

Russell also won 2 NCAA championships. It’s not like he only won because of the Celtics. He was already dominant before that.

Great player with a great team. That’s how every dynasty is born.

j2e21 | Celtics

3 | 2 hours ago

Two NCAA championships at the University of San Francisco, which hasn’t done anything before or since.

j2e21 | Celtics

3 | 2 hours ago

Nah those guys had like 3-4 Hall of Famers playing with them.

Tight_Ad2788

2 | 4 hours ago

Fair - just some people act like he was playing against nobodies - league was obviously top heavy but it wasn’t like he was in a George Mikan situation lol

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | 2 hours ago

Baylor and West played on the same team back then and they were 0-6 against Russell in the Finals.

HikmetLeGuin

5 | 4 hours ago

No, because almost every night, he was up against the best of the best. Russell regularly had to go up against Hall of Fame bigs like Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Bob Pettit, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, etc. (not to mention Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, etc.) and still dominated.

Of course the game wasn’t as popular back then as it is today. But to win that consistently against the best teams year after year is incredible. The margin of error to win 11 championships in 13 years is insanely small (and one of the two years he lost, he was playing hurt). Winning clutch games that often will always be impressive, no matter the era.

Not to mention that he had to pioneer the sport with fewer reference points to learn from… he was, in many ways, the first of his kind. And he also had to deal with intense racism. To overcome that pressure and noise and never falter in the big moments is truly extraordinary.

inefekt | Australia

0 | 3 hours ago

Never lost a winner take all game

He lost a Finals series though, the only blemish in his career. Jordan went 11-0 in major Finals.

Carolake1 | Lakers

7 | 3 hours ago

Jordan went 11-0 except the times he lost without even making it to the finals.

Pardonme23 | Lakers

3 | 6 hours ago

What about international play? That counts.

DVPVPD | Thunder

49 | 6 hours ago

He wasn’t allowed to play.

temujin94

15 | 6 hours ago

And there’s going to plenty of great players going forward that didn’t play high school or college ball either. The majority of the best players in the world at the moment. So how are we classifying that when comparing resume’s? Luka’s last season in Real Madrid is better than any High School or College season that’s ever been had.

Honestly I find it strange that much is made of the importance of college and high school basketball when talking about a players resume, because it’s worth about 1% of their NBA career in terms of importance. The guy with the best basketball resume is the guy with the best NBA resume.

I think because College Sports in the US has such wide popularity people vastly overestimate its value in terms of actual sporting achievement when looking at the absolute upper eschelon of a sport.

You don’t see it discussed in any other debates, if someone asked who’s the best scorer in basketball history and began with ‘well if we look at Kareem’s numbers at Power Memorial Academy it’s hard to argue against him’ they’d be shunned in the street.

MatchAffectionate951

5 | 6 hours ago

Last paragraph is facts

DVPVPD | Thunder

4 | 6 hours ago

Yeah I can agree with that. But the post isn’t about who is the best player. It’s who has the best resume. Jordan is clearly the best player. But it’s an interesting conversation for me and judging by the replies it is for others too. Not everything has to be about who is the best player ever. It gets a bit boring that way

jtapostate

2 | 5 hours ago

Kareem? Like Walton, he refused to play for the US Olympic team.

Carolake1 | Lakers

1 | 3 hours ago

That;s not true. He chose not to in protest.

ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME | Warriors

5 | 5 hours ago

Wait til you hear about his elementary school years.

TrulyNotABot | Grizzlies

2 | 5 hours ago

Well if he was almost undefeated all the way through elementary school, if he played in some of the top elementary school leagues of the era, and if all that was well documented, then sure add that to the story too

inefekt | Australia

2 | 3 hours ago

He had no international career, a much more prestigious arena than high school kids playing against one another lol

Jayrodtremonki

1 | 2 hours ago

Mario Chalmers.

brundylop | Warriors Bandwagon

288 | 7 hours ago

College basketball literally changed the rules to outlaw dunking bc Kareem (then Alcindor) was too dominant. And he still won

DrGeraldBaskums

71 | 5 hours ago

He also wasn’t allowed to play as a freshman per NCAA rules. Between that and not dunking, they arbitrarily nerfed his stats/legacy even more.

Kareem would roll the varsity team as a freshman with a freshman squad… he was the best player in the nation the second he set foot on the court. He almost certainly adds a 4th natty for UCLA on his resume if he’s allowed to play

TheLaughingStorm300 | Lakers

55 | 6 hours ago

That’s some GOAT level shit, who wins even after the rules were changed to exclusively constrain you lmaoo

NumberOneCombosFan | Thunder

12 | 3 hours ago

Reminds me of a Jon Bois quote about Bob Gibson:

Throughout his life, absolutely nothing and nobody on the planet Earth could stop Bob Gibson. So they moved he Earth itself. And that didn’t work either.

tryagainlater63

2 | an hour ago

He says it was the best thing. He developed the sky hook because of it.

CanadaGiver | Raptors

26 | 5 hours ago

Dunking wasn’t dangerous, Kareem was.

LemmingPractice | Raptors

2 | 3 hours ago

Probable the most ironic part of that is that is what prompted him to develop the sky hook, which ended up becoming the most devastating shot in the game.

TecumsehSherman8

1 | 13 minutes ago

A girl I used to date was a pro soccer player. I always thought it was funny how she worked it into her CV

dys0n_giddey | Timberwolves

85 | 7 hours ago

Lauren Jackson - just look at the sidebar

UnsuspectingS1ut | Bucks

26 | 7 hours ago

How tf was she the Korean league MVP while also winning the Russian league in the same year?

dys0n_giddey | Timberwolves

59 | 6 hours ago

Scheduling, but she was also the WNBA MVP that year (also scoring champ, rebounding champ and DPOY)

Just insane.

doctorhypoxia

20 | 6 hours ago

Yeah so in 2007 she was WNBA DPOY, All NBA First Team, Allstar, Scoring Champion, Rebounding Champion, All-defensive First Team, WNBA Peak Performer, Russian League Champion, Korean League MVP. Phew! I’m tired just listing all that out!

bbob_robb | Supersonics

7 | 5 hours ago

It’s like, save some championships for the rest of the world.

Kdot32 | Rockets

1 | 2 hours ago

It’s like reading out Daenerys targeyens titles lmao

BlademasterFlash | Raptors

14 | 6 hours ago

Goat doing GOAT things

UpbeatFix7299 | Warriors

5 | 6 hours ago

Same way Griner was playing in Russia and the WNBA simultaneously. Different seasons so they double dip

Zcase253 | Lakers

24 | 6 hours ago

Her comeback is one hell of a story. Definitely up there as one of Australia’s best athletes and by far the best basketball player we’ve had.

dys0n_giddey | Timberwolves

3 | 5 hours ago

Yeah easily. She still doesn’t get her flowers in Australia as much as she should

Broski28of25 | France

11 | 7 hours ago

Damn what a resume

anonymousetache

15 | 6 hours ago

lol and I’ve never even heard of her. No Olympic gold sadly

IanicRR | TOR

24 | 6 hours ago

Not American. Only reason. Women’s basketball was probably even further separated by skill and the gap is only being reduced in recent years.

ThePort3rdBase

3 | 6 hours ago

Thanks to Title IX. Us Americans are going to be sorely disappointed when college football destroys collegiate sports. Goodbye US dominance in sports, particularly women’s sports.

raptearer | Pacers

2 | 6 hours ago

I think certain sports will survive. Basketball and soccer for both genders, as well as anything Olympic-based (there’ll always be funding for that from somewhere). Others like women’s football or men’s volleyball: those might be gone. Schools might also become a LOT more specialized outside of football when it comes to sports. Can’t imagine, for example, UW (Washington) giving up rowing, it’s by far the most successful program in the schools history. Same with track and field at Nike.. I mean Oregon.

TNT_FC

3 | 6 hours ago

She got Lisa Leslie’s hair extensions on her mantlepiece though.

LockAndDen | Rockets

2 | 6 hours ago

Her and Michele Timms are probably the greatest Australian women’s ball players ever, they’re legends here

TNT_FC

8 | 6 hours ago

It’s Jackson and then daylight, and then more daylight… with respect to Timms.

dys0n_giddey | Timberwolves

1 | 5 hours ago

Which is crazy cause Timms was The Aussie basketballer for so long

BookOfTheBeppo

59 | 7 hours ago

I’m trying to imagine a player building their NBA resume and a cover letter to get a regular 9 to 5

kiwiwikikiwiwikikiwi | Lakers

42 | 6 hours ago

“What winning 6 NBA Championships and 6 MVPs taught me about B2B sales…”

Dymatizeee | Knicks

1 | an hour ago

Lmaooo

Temetzcoatl | Lakers

16 | 6 hours ago

“It’s great that you won so many times playing this game but I don’t think we can use you at the dealership right now”

DVPVPD | Thunder

8 | 6 hours ago

Kareem once said “I am a writer who also played basketball ” like yeah cmon buddy

Pardonme23 | Lakers

10 | 4 hours ago

He wrote a book about the Harlem Renaissance and is an accomplished author. He’s on substack right now.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | an hour ago

Yeah but he’s one of the best basketball players ever.

TenaciousDeer

5 | 6 hours ago

Maybe some try to hide their NBA background to be taken seriously

“I’m sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I’m the co-pilot”

BrotherSeamus | Thunder

42 | 6 hours ago

Never won the in-season tournament. KAT clears.

[IIRC Kareem/Alcindor was not even eligible to play with the first team as a college freshman]

gurkank5830 | Lakers

31 | 7 hours ago

Yes, he does. GOAT level

Pickleskennedy1

43 | 7 hours ago

Bill Russell finished his college career on a run of 55 straight wins and two national championships at a college that won nothing before him and nothing since. Kareem went to the biggest powerhouse in the college game. Went to the Olympics and won gold with the highest average margin of victory ever (right ahead of 1992). And then Bill went on to win 11 rings in the NBA

It’s unquestionably him

Eastern_Antelope_832

11 | 6 hours ago

Kareem might’ve gone to the greatest basketball program in the nation, but as a freshman, he whipped the upperclassmen in practice.

JagmeetSingh2

9 | 6 hours ago

Yep absolutely this

AHopelessMaravich

3 | 6 hours ago

I agree that Russell is probably the best answer, but from what I’ve heard there’s one other name that deserves discussion with Bill Walton. I feel like Kareem, Russell and Walton are always the names I’ve heard as having the best high school to college to pro performances.

Walton is just acknowledged as having a very shortened nba career due to injuries.

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | 3 hours ago

Bill Russell finished his college career on a run of 55 straight wins and two national championships at a college that won nothing before him and nothing since.

That is a bald-faced lie. San Francisco went right back to the Final Four the season after Russell left, and were 25-2 the following season after that.

Russell made very little difference to San Francisco’s results, but they fell apart when their coach quit.

They were also quite good some of the years before Russell arrived, going 25-5 and finishing 8th, and 19-7 and 12th in the final poll.

Kareem went to the biggest powerhouse in the college game.

UCLA went 18-8 in the season before Abdul-Jabbar was eligible to play, and did not make the NCAA tournament. He __made__ UCLA that powerhouse.

Went to the Olympics and won gold with the highest average margin of victory ever (right ahead of 1992).

Yes, despite later attempting to cast himself as some sort of social justice champion, Russell __fought to play__ for the US in the Olympics – as contrasted with Abdul-Jabbar, who boycotted the ‘68 Games and contributed significantly to the invention of the now-common concept of athletes leveraging their fame for justice.

Not much to be proud of there, for Russell.

And then Bill went on to win 11 rings in the NBA

And with only about 8 Hall of Fame teammates every year.

It’s unquestionably him

Russell is comfortably the most overrated player in basketball history. Both San Francisco and Boston carried-on largely as before, after he departed from their rosters.

Pickleskennedy1

33 | 7 hours ago

Nope, Bill Russell

Boom-Doc-a-Locka

15 | 6 hours ago

Objectively it’s almost impossible to argue this isn’t the answer.

DVPVPD | Thunder

5 | 6 hours ago

The only other I thought of being close but he has less MVPS and his college career wasn’t as good

logster2001 | Rockets

24 | 6 hours ago

Saying Bill Russell’s college career wasn’t as good is absurd.

Sure Kareem had 1 more title, but he did so on the top school in the country. A school that won 2 titles right before Kareem got there, and 2 titles right after he left. They were winning titles with or without Kareem

Now compare that to Bill Russell who won back to back titles and went undefeated at a school who did jack shit before or after him. He was THE reason they won. Definitely just as good of a college career and honestly pretty obviously a better one.

draculabakula

8 | 5 hours ago

Exactly. UCLA won 2 titles in 3 years before Kareem. University of Sanfransico was neve good before or after Russell.

Kareem is extremely impressive but he did what he did on the back of he work Russell put in

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | 2 hours ago

Now compare that to Bill Russell who won back to back titles and went undefeated at a school who did jack shit before or after him. He was THE reason they won.

That is a bald-faced lie. San Francisco went right back to the Final Four the season after Russell left, and were 25-2 the following season after that.

Russell made very little difference to San Francisco’s results, but they fell apart when their coach quit a few seasons later.

They were also quite good some of the years before Russell arrived, going 25-5 and finishing 8th, and 19-7 and 12th in the final poll.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | an hour ago

What do you mean he made little difference? They won 55 straight games with him. You just listed 14 losses here.

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | an hour ago

What do you mean he made little difference?

The Dons went immediately back to the Final Four without him.

At most, Russell was worth a game or two, over Art Day – the sophomore who replaced him at center, and who never played professionally.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | an hour ago

Right, do you not understand the difference between not losing for two straight years and being merely one of the four best teams in the country. It’s more than a game or two.

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | an hour ago

Right, do you not understand the difference between not losing for two straight years…

Oh really. Which two years did San Francisco go undefeated in?

It’s more than a game or two.

Oh really. San Francisco went 28-1 in Russell’s junior season, and 25-2 in Art Day’s junior season.

Break out your calculator and see if that’s more than a game or two.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | 24 minutes ago

In Russell’s junior and senior years they went 57-1 and won the title both seasons. The year he left they went 21-7. Yes, they went 25-2 two years after he left, but that’s still 2x the losses as in his last two seasons combined.

TNT_FC

8 | 6 hours ago

As Kareem if he’d trade his MVP awards for championship rings and he pauses to think about it.

As Bill if he’d trade his championship rings for MVPs and he’d instantly give that big goofy grin.

DVPVPD | Thunder

1 | 6 hours ago

Hard to use rings sometimes. Pat Mccaw won 3 in a row im sure he would trade them for an MVP.

Players value different things. Kareem won 6 of each im sure he is fine with both options

Pickleskennedy1

4 | 6 hours ago

Bill won 11, and only had one less MVP. Kareem also won most of his while half of the top talent was in another league

j2e21 | Celtics

2 | an hour ago

Exactly. Kareem doesn’t win six MVPs going up against Erving.

Wavepops

1 | 6 hours ago

Kareem had 6 titles so this premise is dumb. He can do both and did both and care about both deeply

draculabakula

5 | 5 hours ago

Bill Russell has 5 more titles and 1 less MVP while facing a waaaay more racist league and fans. Russell had 1 less NCAA title but 5 more NBA titles. He also literally invented modern defense for a big man by being the first guy to jump to block shots and he basically invented the alley oop with KC Jones in college

They also changed the rules to limit his domination. In college, they widened the key to 12 feet because of Bill Russells dominance

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | 2 hours ago

He also literally invented modern defense for a big man by being the first guy to jump to block shots and he basically invented the alley oop with KC Jones in college

Wow, sounds like that would’ve been so unstoppable they’d have had to outlaw dunking or something. Did they?

They also changed the rules to limit his domination. In college, they widened the key to 12 feet because of Bill Russells dominance

Nice try, but the lane was widened in the NCAA for Russell’s rookie season in the NBA – 1956-7. The NBA widened its lane for the second time ( after first doing so to slow Mikan ) because Russell nor anyone else could deal with Wilt Chamberlain.

The myths that people invent to pretend that Russell wasn’t just a center with incredible teammates are hilarious. Next thing you know, he’s going to have a giant blue ox by his side.

Hendo8888 | IND

0 | 6 hours ago

Best NBA team success: Russell

Best basketball resume: Kareem

Best stats: Wilt

DVPVPD | Thunder

5 | 6 hours ago

I find it near impossible to understand Wilt stats. Even contextually to the guys in similar times they were just unbelievable

Also the 20k women thing is a wild stat of its own

Tight_Ad2788

3 | 5 hours ago

I think Wilt was a LeBron level freak athlete who happened to be born in the 1930s - dude was just an anomaly and still would be

inefekt | Australia

2 | 4 hours ago

can’t have the best career stats if you don’t have the best stats in the most important part of the season, the playoffs (and of course the Finals).
People gloss over the fact, or simply do not even know that his scoring average plummeted at every bigger stage, from 30ppg in the regular season to 22.5ppg in the playoffs to 18.6ppg in the Finals.
Jordan went from 30ppg in the regular season to 33.4ppg in the playoffs to 33.6ppg in the Finals.
Until Jokic came along MJ led all of NBA history in pretty much every advanced metric which aggregates all box score data (on a per game or per season basis). Who knows if Jokic will stay ahead of him by the time his career ends, he is still at his peak and MJ peaked with better numbers….so who knows.
So pretty clearly Jordan has the best stats, not Wilt….and certainly not LeBron who basically only leads in career total stats, numbers that don’t contribute to winning because no player in history has helped his team win a championship because he passed some career total milestone…many players won their teams championships because they put up the best numbers night in and night out over a season. And career totals certainly hold less weight when those numbers are shared between multiple teams. MJ scored almost 30k points for the Bulls. The Cavs are the biggest beneficiary of LeBron’s record career points total with 23k points.

subtlebob | Pacers

1 | 6 hours ago

Fewer

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

2 | 2 hours ago

Objectively it’s almost impossible to argue this isn’t the answer.

It’s actually trivial.

In ‘63, the Celtics had 8 Hall of Famers, not including Russell. In ‘61, they had 7, not including Russell. In ‘67, they had 7, not including Russell.

Russell is alone in NBA history having never played a single season – and not even a game, I don’t think – without at least 5 Hall of Fame teammates. More commonly he had 7 Hall of Fame teammates, and a few multi-time All-stars just for good measure.

As a result, he is very comfortably the most over-rated player in basketball history, due to his good fortune with teammates.

j2e21 | Celtics

2 | an hour ago

Yeah but go look at those guys. Only a couple were actual Hall of Famers. The rest were just solid players who happened to play with Russell. That’s why people always say it was a great team but nobody can name anyone who was on it aside from Cousy and Havlicek.

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | an hour ago

Yeah but go look at those guys. Only a couple were actual Hall of Famers. The rest were just solid players who happened to play with Russell.

That is a bald-faced lie.

Most of those Hall of Famers were just as good or even better when playing for other teams, or before or after Russell’s career.

The only Hall of Famers who played with Russell for whom we lack that context are;

Sam Jones – who played his entire career alongside Russell, but Jones was just damn good.
Tom Sanders – Sanders hung around for a few seasons post-Russell, but didn’t have enough left for us to judge his caliber.
Frank Ramsey – only played one season before Russell due to Army service, but was an excellent rookie.
KC Jones – also played his whole career alongside Russell.

That’s it.

Those other teammates of Russell include:

Cousy was 5-time All-NBA first team before Russell, and MVP in his Russell’s rookie season.
Bill Sharman was 5th in MVP voting before Russell, and a constant All-star.
Tom Heinsohn was rookie of the year over Russell, and a constant All-star in the second half of his career.
Arnie Risen was a four-time All-star with Rochester, before playing in Boston.
Andy Phillip was a five-time All-star in Philadelphia and Fort Wayne, before finishing up his career in Boston.
Clyde Lovellette was a four-time All-star in Minneapolis and St Louis
John Havlicek repeatedly threatened to win an MVP after Russell was done, and was a constant All-star through ‘76.
Willie Naulls did not make the Hall of Fame, but he was a four-time All-star with the Knicks, before playing 3 seasons with Boston.
Don Nelson had the best seasons of his career after Russell was done ( is HoF as a coach, not player )
Wayne Embry was a five-time All-star with Cincinnati.
Bailey Howell was a four-time All-star with Detroit, and All-NBA 2nd team.

So no, you are completely incorrect with your claim. And I invite you not to challenge me on matters of fact, because I am not wrong.

Also, if you are going to wear Celtics flair, I should not have have to educate you on your own team’s history. That’s awfully embarrassing for you.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | 29 minutes ago

Sanders averaged under 10 points and 6 boards as a forward. Nelson also averaged under 10 points and five boards as a small forward. Naulls averaged ¹⁰⁄₅. Risen played two seasons with Russell and averaged 7 PPG. Embry also played two seasons and averaged under six points per game. Phillip played two years and averaged under four PPG. Lovellette also had two years under seven PPG.

KC Jones averaged seven points and four assists as a point guard. Russell averaged the same amount of assists as his point guard. Ramsey averaged 13/5/2.

Bailey Howell played with Russell for three seasons and averaged ¹⁸⁄₈. Solid, but like Carlos Boozer solid.

These guys were either not Hall of Famers without Russell, or good players before Russell but not with him. It’s like saying LeBron played with Hall of Famers Shaquille O’Neal. Most of them were slightly above average players.

Cousy and Havlicek were legit greats. Sam Jones and Sharman were very good. And Heinsohn was very good for a few years.

ketchupwater8008

20 | 6 hours ago

I don’t get how people call bill Russels chips “Mickey mouse chips” but then somehow want to say “Kareem has the best basketball resume of all time” and want to mention it for his goat argument

DVPVPD | Thunder

10 | 6 hours ago

I didnt say they were Mickey Mouse chips?

These guys were so far significantly better than the guys they played against its wild and near impossible to match to this day and age. You can really only compare them with their counterparts

Carolake1 | Lakers

4 | 3 hours ago

I mean, in the late 50s when Russell started winning titles there were only 8 teams. By the early 80s when Kareem was winning, there were almost 3 times as many teams. Even in 1970 there were 10 more teams. I think Kareem’s titles are much more respectible in terms of what it took to win.

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | an hour ago

Well, Russell won in a league with 14 teams and Kareem played in a league with 14 teams and couldn’t win.

pkthomas11

14 | 7 hours ago

Yes, but is often overlooked in GOAT conversation unfortunately

Vegetable-Tooth8463 | Hornets

10 | 7 hours ago

The GOAT conversation is restricted to NBA

Tight_Ad2788

6 | 6 hours ago

I mean he’s still gotta pretty damn good case in NBA haha

shyhumble | Thunder

8 | 6 hours ago

We are very fortunate that nobody considers college success when determining the NBA goat. What are you possibly talking about

J_Kingsley

0 | 6 hours ago

What I find interesting is he was never considered the goat back then by his contemporaries. The players and people who watched him play had big O over him.

It was only in recent times where he catapulted to the top. I suppose it’s understandable since modern fans never watched him play and only has his hardware to go by.

EuphonicSounds

1 | 6 hours ago

My memory is that people generally had both Wilt and Oscar ahead of Kareem as late as the ‘90s. And I may be misremembering but I swear Dr. J was right up there too.

ThirdEyeKaiii

1 | 6 hours ago

The 2 FMVPs part is what hurts his case the most. Since you’d be comparing him to guys that were the best players for all their titles

ParagonSaint

2 | 4 hours ago

Finals MVP isn’t/shouldnt really a criticism for Kareem. In 1980 he was allegedly voted the FMVP but they didn’t want to give the award to someone not in the building so they switched up and gave it to Magic instead. The media didn’t like him being outspoken about civil rights and shifted him on media voted awards as a result a lot

ThirdEyeKaiii

0 | 4 hours ago

Then that would mean he’d still “only” have 3 FMVPs for his 6 titles. The point still stands

ketchupwater8008

0 | 6 hours ago

I don’t get how people don’t have bill Russell in the goat conversation but somehow literally want to count HIGH SCHOOL in the goat convo 😂 Kareem is so overrated it’s not even funny

TenaciousDeer

10 | 6 hours ago

Could easily have an Olympic gold as well, boycotted the 1968 games

Hot-Character9592

5 | 6 hours ago

6 MVPs is insanity.

DVPVPD | Thunder

3 | 6 hours ago

Looking at his career accomplishments is like making a guy 99 overall in 2k. How does a guy make 19 all star teams and win 6MVPS?

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

3 | an hour ago

6 MVPs is insanity.

He should’ve won 10.

Abdul-Jabbar was widely hated during his career, for his talent, politics, race, and religion – in no particular order – so MVP voters regularly robbed him of deserved awards. Inspect some of the voting records from the Seventies, and prepare to be offended on his behalf. He finished an incomprehensible 5th in ‘75 after posting 30/14/4/3 and being first-team all-defense.

captain_ahabb | Lakers

5 | 7 hours ago

Jordan is no slouch considering he has international play too.

DVPVPD | Thunder

2 | 6 hours ago

Jordan doesn’t have the high school career. Didn’t make his side until he grew. He also doesn’t have the same college resume

cyanwaw | BOS

1 | 3 hours ago

You can’t possible compare amateur achievements to professional ones.

Only pro and international accomplishments matter when comparing resumes.

ThedirtyNose | NBA

1 | 7 hours ago

Was it just a timing thing stopped KAJ from going to Olympics?

RedtheGamer100 | Hornets

18 | 7 hours ago

Pre-1992, professional players weren’t allowed to represent US basketball. The only time Kareem was eligible was 1968 and he boycotted it over racial inequality.

Rikter14 | Warriors

12 | 6 hours ago

No, Kareem refused to play for the US during the 1968 Olympics due to unequal treatment of black people in the United States. And then he wouldn’t have been able to play after due to the amateurism rule.

UnsuspectingS1ut | Bucks

2 | 7 hours ago

NBA players weren’t allowed in international events until the early 90s

yousaytomaco

2 | 6 hours ago

Until 1992 only college players could go; however, he could have played in the 1968 games but refused to play for the American team for political reasons

DJFreezyFish | Nuggets

0 | 7 hours ago

NBA sent college players some years, and in general it was taken way less seriously. There were only a couple great international players until the 90s.

F_CKMONEY | Knicks

5 | 7 hours ago

Yeah, if you’re weighting everything equally. He’s way more clearly the GOAT of pre-NBA play than anyone is the GOAT of NBA play

DJMagicHandz | Celtics

5 | 5 hours ago

#BILL MUTHAFUCKIN’ RUSSELL

TreatmentBoundLess

4 | 6 hours ago

Bill Russell?

Edit: spelling.

rocket_beer | Celtics

5 | 5 hours ago

Bill vs Kareem total stats

Kareem was good in every level.

He wasn’t the best player in the NBA for all of his NBA years, but he was for many of them.

Bill Russell went 88-3 in HS, 71-8 in college, won gold in the summer Olympics for high jump (broke a world record) and then won 11 rings in the NBA.

Gladius2

2 | 6 hours ago

Chamberlain was a Globetrotter. Match that Kareem.

DVPVPD | Thunder

3 | 6 hours ago

Looking at his career and seeing “he was too young for the NBA draft so his options were college or the Globetrotters” was such a weird head spin to read

Working-Doctor9578 | Knicks

3 | 6 hours ago

Yes. Kareem’s TOTAL basketball resume is just ridiculous.

AbsoluteGarbaj

2 | 6 hours ago

Yes.

MWave123

2 | 6 hours ago

HS, college, pro, it’s Kareem and it’s not close.

erog84 | Suns

2 | 6 hours ago

Wrong… and it’s not close 😆

MWave123

0 | 6 hours ago

No one has his resume. Not close.

SportVideoGameMusic | Celtics

2 | 6 hours ago

Can’t argue against that lol Kareem is so nasty!

Fhaksfha794 | Spurs

2 | 6 hours ago

Yes and it’s not close (NBA wise). If they didn’t have a rule where freshmen couldn’t play on the college varsity team then he would have another national championship making that 4 in a row. Taking into account all levels of the game Kareem is the goat

llmic23

2 | 6 hours ago

Only 3 times in college bc Freshman did not play back then they had jv at the college level.

logster2001 | Rockets

2 | 6 hours ago

Bill Russell 100% has a better resume than Kareem. Kareem himself has said that before

swizznastic

2 | 6 hours ago

Yeah if you count every MVP and ring with the same weight across all of nba history, he has the best career ever

gtmc5

2 | 4 hours ago

Did Zeke write this?

Yes, Kareem or LeBron, best player of all time. Not the shoe salesman.

joojoo-7thround

1 | 7 hours ago

MJ Goat Kareem 2nd goat

OpinionDude5000

1 | 6 hours ago

Kareem or Jordan.

Probably Jordan tbh

DVPVPD | Thunder

3 | 6 hours ago

Jordan didn’t make his high school team until he grew and doesn’t have the same college career. Kareem also has an extra MVP plus 19 all stars is wild longevity

OpinionDude5000

2 | 6 hours ago

Jordan did win the National Championship with a game winning shot though.

Jordan has more FMVP, Kareem only has two…

Jordan only has one less MVP

Jordan is the 10xScoring champ. Kareem only twice.

Kareem has no DPOY awards but probably would have had at least one due to the NBA not having the award until the 1983 season. Jordan has one.

Jordan is the 2xDunk Contest winner

The MVP award is literally named after MJ.

Jordan has more All-Defensive Team selections (14 total: 9 First Team, 5 Second Team) compared to Kareem (11 total: 5 First Team, 6 Second Team)

Its close. Could go either way. I lean to Jordan. He just has more awards.

ParagonSaint

1 | 4 hours ago

Jordan doesn’t have more awards though.

Kareem won all 3 years in college and was a 3x MVP. MJ won ¹⁄₃ years in college but Worthy was the best player on that team and won the MVP (double teamed leaving MJ open to it the winning shot; worthy was tournament MVP and when worthy graduated MJ never won again in college)

Defensive player of the year didn’t get awarded until 1982 more than halfway through Kareem’s career. He’d have several in the 70s otherwise and he faced greater competition at Center for accolades like all nba and all defense than MJ faced at the SG position.

Your stats about awards/hardware/total accolades are just wrong:

Kareem has more MVPs (6 to 5)

Kareem has more All Stars (19 to 14)

Kareem has more All NBA (15 to 11; each have 10 first team selections)

Kareem has more All Defense (11 to 9) not sure where you’re getting MJ getting an additional 5 all defenses…. He has 9 total.

Both have 6 rings (6 to 6)

Kareem has more conference titles (10 to 6)

Kareem is also a 4x blocks leader and rebounds leader.

The only thing Jordan has more of is finals MVP. Both have 6 rings but Kareem has 4 more conference titles which gives him a steep edge. MJ is a great player but he’s no where close in terms of total hardware/accolades. If you add college and high school the gap goes from large to ocean sized in favor of Kareem.

OpinionDude5000

0 | 3 hours ago

Left out scoring titles for which Kareem has two. Meanwhile Jordan has 10, the most ever.

More scoring titles x10 vs x2 !, more FMVP’s, a gold medal, 2xdunk champ(adding this because you brought up highschool lol), MJ was 3xSteals leader - Kareem never. Its not the gap that you claim it to be. Kareem has some longevity trophies but longevity is just how long you participated.

As you can see, Jordan has Kareem beat on several big accolades. It depends on what you value.

ParagonSaint

1 | 3 hours ago

If you tally up the major accolades they each lead in Kareem has more total categories he has the edge over Jordan in.

Dunk champ? Really?? Be serious.

Kareem protested the Olympics due to civil rights and segregation in 1968 I wouldn’t use that as a knock against him; he wasn’t eligible for the Olympics any other time in his career. This isn’t the flex you think it is.

Kareem was a blocks champ more times than MJ was a steals champ. And they didn’t even track blocks champ for most of his career.

Ok so FMVP and scoring titles. Thats the only 2 accolades MJ has him beat in and Kareem still has more total points (2nd all time) and is 3rd in total rebounds with better longevity. MJs scoring titles he led the league in field goal attempts by FAR which really dilutes the luster of the award; and despite all those titles he’s STILL short of Kareem in terms of total points scored in his career.

So MJ leads in TWO categories: Finals MVP and scoring titles (considering the steals and blocks titles a wash even though Kareem has more blocks titles than MJ has steals titles)

Kareem leads in FIVE categories: All stars, All NBA, All Defense, MVPs, conference titles. And that’s not including total stats where Kareem leads in: points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and wins. MJ literally only leads in steals (which he should as a guard vs a center lol)

The gap is Oceansized in favor of Kareem when talking about accolades and that doesn’t even include NCAA which he leads 3 to 1 in titles and 3 to 0 in MVPs. If you want to consider DPOY which didn’t exist until Kareem’s career was halfway over that’s fine so instead of 5 to 2 Kareem instead leads 5 to 3 in terms of major accolades (would be 6 to ²⁄₃ if you include Kareem being a rebounding champion which Jordan never had) and no one has ever really used scoring titles to make a goat case; especially because in all of them MJ led the league in field goal attempts by a WIDE margin lmao. It’s the rings and other accolades mentioned above where Kareem has him beat handily.

DVPVPD | Thunder

0 | 6 hours ago

My argument would be the post isn’t about who is better. Jordan js better. But resume wise it has to be Kareem. Jordan didn’t make his HS side until he grew. He also wasn’t the college player Kareem was despite the national championship. Kareem absolutely would have had multiple DPOY awards but he doesnt.

The award naming thing is a weird one because like why is it Jordan? Why is the ROY named after Wilt? Or clutch named after West?

Maleficent-Cod-7720

1 | 6 hours ago

Yes resume-wise literally nobody stacks up w em besides Bill Russel

Glad_Art_6380

1 | 6 hours ago

Yes he has the best career including HS, college, and pro.

Guardsred70

1 | 5 hours ago

It’s pretty damn good. Russell is similar. I’d also toss in MJ and Magic….but I don’t think they’d claim they had better careers than Kareem.

Artimusjones88 | Raptors

1 | 5 hours ago

Waltpn was trending that way In High school 49 consecutive wins , including 33-0 as a Senior. Where he went ²⁹⁄₂₅, had an 88 game winning streak at UCLA with 2 Championships. Even with injuries he won 2 rings.

What coulda been

OppositeStory2

1 | 5 hours ago

Yes.

JellyfishFlaky5634

1 | 5 hours ago

Yes. High school, college and pros. Although Bill Russell was impressive as well.

ShortBusScholar

1 | 5 hours ago

Bill Simmons wrote about this in his book. Kareem lost a year or two he could have had in the pros because players had to do all four years of college before being able to declare for the draft back in those days.

Agreed_fact | Raptors

1 | 5 hours ago

Yeah I think so. Until someone like Luka comes along (Euro mvp & champion etc) to the nba and then also has a bunch of mvps and championships it’s unlikely anyone can top Kareem.

Theoretically, if Luka won the mvp and the chpionship in 2024 instead of effectively being second up in both, and then went on to get 3x more of each, plus the scoring titles, you could argue him im 10 years.

TowerOfPowerWow

0 | 3 hours ago

Nah not with his garbage defense Jordan had 9 NBA 1st team all nba defense selections. Which is crazy to me as a guard who did so much of their offense.

poopiepants131

1 | 4 hours ago

I try not to get caught up in GOAT conversations but I appreciate your post His career and accolades are truly remarkable.

Starksgoon

1 | 4 hours ago

You kind of ask 2 different questions. The best resume is probably still LeBron with him being the best HS player ever and dominating the NBA right away as an 18 y/o but Kareems GOAT college career puts him at a very close 2nd.

To answer your 2nd question, No Kareem is not the only one to be the best at all 3 levels. Off the top of my head Shaq and Wilt were for sure the best at all 3 levels. Big O might have been the best player in the league but his college stats were off the charts amazing. Not sure how he did in HS.

ForeignAir7174

1 | 4 hours ago

Yes, and it’s seriously crazy that he’s not unanimously thought of as the 3rd greatest player of all time. That’s as low a ranking as his resume warrants. You wanna rate him higher, fine. There’s a good argument for him to be considered the second greatest or even the GOAT. But under no circumstances is he lower than 3rd.

cat_piss_lint_trap | Supersonics

1 | 3 hours ago

Kareems HS side was amazing

His side won 71 straight games

His side won 3 straight city titles

In college, his side went 88-2

American sports don’t have “sides”. They have teams.

VanGrants | Knicks

1 | 3 hours ago

why do you keep saying side lol

DVPVPD | Thunder

1 | 3 hours ago

Its an Aussie thing

VanGrants | Knicks

1 | 3 hours ago

learn something new every day

Carolake1 | Lakers

1 | 3 hours ago

I think his lack of gold medals is a weakness. I think Lebron’s record might actually exceed Kareem’s.

Lebron HS: 101-6 record. 3 State titles. One national title. 27-0 as a freshman. His one loss as a senior was a forfeit because of his accepting a jersey.

Lebron Olympics: 3 gold, 1 bronze

Lebron NBA: obviously we know all of these stats.

Clear_Lead

1 | 2 hours ago

Pros could not play Olympics in Kareem’s day. Dream Team is a cheat code

j2e21 | Celtics

1 | 2 hours ago

I mean Bill Russell’s is pretty good.

The-Pharcyde | Raptors

1 | 2 hours ago

Id say so.

DowntownJulieBrown1 | Raptors

1 | an hour ago

I’m calling a.i. slop

Winter_Senior

1 | an hour ago

Yes

Former_Ad_736

1 | 38 minutes ago

Imagine if Kareem didn’t have to waste his pro career playing 4 years of college?

TCTCTCTCTCTC7

1 | 36 minutes ago

Yes, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player ever.

In addition to the many facts already shared below;

Then-Lew-Alcindor played at the legendary Rucker Park when just sixteen years old, against many of the best players in the world at the time, and by all contemporary accounts, could have held his own in the NBA at that age – if such were allowed. By eighteen, he was the second-best player in the world, behind only Chamberlain. He’d still be quite aways ahead of LeBron James on the scoring list, if he hadn’t been forced to spend four prime seasons at UCLA.

Abdul-Jabbar won his first title with Milwaukee, when the franchise was only 3 years old – which is a feat still unmatched in North American professional sports. And those ‘71 Bucks are in the conversation for the best team ever, and exceedingly few, if any, teams were better in the playoffs.

Tight_Ad2788

1 | 6 hours ago

Probably between LeBron, Kareem and Bill Russell

DVPVPD | Thunder

4 | 6 hours ago

Bron doesn’t have college

Tight_Ad2788

3 | 6 hours ago

Oh yeah lol totally missed that - Yeah I’d say Russell has a strong case since he won twice in college (with U San Fran which was pretty random), obviously his NBA accomplishments are well known, and also won a Gold Medal. Think HS wasn’t that great tho.

Bill Walton also has a good one: won two state champs in HS, 2 NCAA championships while going 86-4, with 3 College POTYs. NBA resume is good but not anywhere near as impressive though.

So yeah hard to beat losing 8 total games before the NBA and then winning 6 titles lol

Teghendion

0 | 6 hours ago

He was the best player on his team in 2 of those 6 rings, so no. MJ has the best resume.

DVPVPD | Thunder

3 | 6 hours ago

Jordan didn’t make his high school side and doesnt have the college career. Also if thats your argument about only rings then Kareem has more MVPs so does that make him better?

Dokterrock

3 | 6 hours ago

why do you keep saying “side” instead of team? Is this a non-US thing?

DVPVPD | Thunder

2 | 6 hours ago

Yeah maybe- I am an Aussie. Saying side instead of team is pretty common here -they are basically interchangeable

Not_GeorgeForeman

2 | 3 hours ago

lol this was bothering me more than it should of

Teghendion

2 | 6 hours ago

Since when are we judging basketball players based on their HS career? What nonsense even is that? MJ has 10 scoring titles and was DPOY as well. Meanwhile the 80s showtime Lakers were basically Magic’s team, KAJ wasn’t even the best player on his team during that time. Not to mention KAJ also played a large part of his career in the 70s when the NBA was maybe at its lowest since the talent was dispersed due to the NBA ABA split. Dr.J for example played in the ABA at the time.

DVPVPD | Thunder

2 | 6 hours ago

Because that is what the post is about? You didn’t need to comment on it? It’s optional

Teghendion

2 | 6 hours ago

So basically only people who agree with you can comment on it or what exactly is your point?

DVPVPD | Thunder

1 | 6 hours ago

No that isnt it at all. But saying the post is nonsense for asking something that you dont agree with and using that as the basis for a response to a question achieves nothing does it? If you ask what your favourite sunny holiday location is and say Sydney and my response is you know it rains there too doesn’t really achieve anything does it?

Wavepops

1 | 6 hours ago

This post is about their whole basketball career

ParagonSaint

1 | 4 hours ago

Kareem also has 4 more conference titles. Anyone who watched knows him and Magic were 1A/1B and the 1980 FMVP was originally awarded to Kareem but changed to Magic as they didn’t want to give the trophy to someone not in the building. Kareem was every bit as good and important as Magic to the dynasty teams.

tropicalstorm2020

0 | 6 hours ago

No He wouldn’t pass West. Jerry west is a goat college, goat player but GOAT as a GM.

jweezy2045 | Warriors

0 | 5 hours ago

I’m not sure why you’re caring about HS or even college though. The best basketball resume comes from the best pro career, and I’m just not sure that’s Kareem.

inefekt | Australia

1 | 4 hours ago

This is true, well for HS anyway. People caring about a bunch of kids running around are massively overrating that part of a player’s career. It’s actually crazy how much Americans talk about high school sports….no other country on the planet gives that part of a sports star’s life even a passing thought because we all know they are just children.

ParagonSaint

1 | 4 hours ago

NCAA absolutely does matter. Given they both have 6 rings in the NBA Kareem having 4 more conference titles, 2 more NCAA titles. More All stars, all nba, all defense, MVPs etc definitely give him the best overall basketball career talking about the totality of the sport and high level competition

TowerOfPowerWow

1 | 3 hours ago

Yeah, seems like Luna said to me who cares about high school college NBA is the best league in the world that’s what résumé matters.

pointguard22 | Pistons

0 | 5 hours ago

Yes. But LeBron is getting close by putting the all time scoring record basically out of reach forever.

inefekt | Australia

0 | 4 hours ago

Who cares. John Stockton has two all time career total marks that will be out of reach forever, even more unreachable than LeBron’s scoring title, especially given how damn easy the NBA is making scoring now. It’s crazy how literally nobody gave career total records the time of day until Lebron started ascending those lists….ya’ll are brain washed by Klutch media.

Abject_Map7688 | Spurs

0 | 4 hours ago

John Stockton is highly regarded and a lot of those assists come from playing with Karl Malone another all time great basketball player.

Also they both trash as human beings.

TowerOfPowerWow

1 | 3 hours ago

Stock is trash IRL too?

pointguard22 | Pistons

0 | 3 hours ago

Bro it was a huge deal when Kareem passed Wilt. The point of basketball is to make baskets so that record will always be important.

HikmetLeGuin

0 | 4 hours ago

Kareem or Bill Russell. Russell didn’t have the high school career of Kareem, but he won 2 NCAA championships, an Olympic Gold, and 11 NBA championships.

Jordan’s resume is obviously impeccable, too. Not quite as dominant as Kareem in college, but still extraordinary.

Would have loved to see what LeBron could have done with a college team.

Does Kareem have the best basketball resume ever?