I think in general this is a fairly unprecedented amount parity

Well there’s two different answers to this question really with regard to LeBron vs. with regard to Steph

Jokic and Giannis do legitimately both have one clear flaw compared to peak LeBron (defense for Jokic, shooting for Giannis) I have zero issue saying that LeBron is in his own tier over the last 20 years

But comparing the teams Steph had around him from 2015-2019 to the teams Jokic and Giannis have had around them is extreme apples to oranges lol

Khris Middleton would be the 4th best scorer and 5th best player on the 2017 Warriors like come on and Giannis’s best teammate right now in the middle of his prime is “Ryan Rollins”

People will just say,

It is harder to win multiple rings today in 2020s.

Or there is more parity between teams due to new cba.

Or Steph/Lebron had the better teams relative to the other 28 teams in their respective time.

Though, there are some truth to those.

The teams are just better now and more talented. There isn’t a team 2 top 5 players like the warriors or 2 top 10 in the Cavs.

Health…

Jokic Nuggets had injuries 2021, 2022, even some injuries in the last 2 years despite the big names playing. MPJ, AG and Murray have all played hurt

Giannis and the Bucks is even worse, they’ve only had 1 healthy postseason since theyve been contenders and that was 2019. 2020 was the bubble and Giannis got hurt vs the Heat. DDV missed 2021 playoffs and Giannis injured again. 2022 Middleton slips on a wet spot in the playoffs and gets hurt. KLove undercuts Giannis and he gets hurt in 2023. Giannis and Dame injured in 2024. Dame blood clot and achilles in 2025

I know people don’t like “playoff wins” as a stat anymore because LeBron makes people psychotic for whatever reason, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that Jokic’s Nuggets and Giannis’ Bucks are the #2 and #4 winningest teams in the league this decade. They both have one ring, tied most this decade.

People will rate them appropriately.

It’s a different league with different salary rules.

Both players are in a small market team which makes it harder to get serviceable players.

Also the new second apron makes it hard to ‘dominate,’ with one bad contract ruining your chance at a chip for years.

Lebron has had piles of Hall of Fame teammates, so has Steph.

I honestly don’t understand what’s so confusing about the fact that chips aren’t a one-man achievement, and even the best players in the world had to have HoF and All-Star teammates to win rings, something Jokic, for example, has never had.

Lebron literally had to leave Cleveland to go join a Super Team to win because he didn’thave good enough teamnates. So did Durant. Steph already had the super team around him.

For what it’s worth, Jokic is the only player in NBA history to win a ring with no teammates who have ever been All-Stars.

Give either Giannis or Jokic the amount of talent Curry had and they are winning multiple championships. Also both guys play for small markets with at least in the Nuggets case cheap owners in a league with the most parity and strictest salary cap rules.

Imagine if Jokic or Giannis got to play with a DPOY and another all NBA level player for most of their career’s then getting a MVP runner up on their roster. Yes Giannis has had more help than Jokic but his help has also been hurt a bunch in the playoffs and not to the same level as Draymond, Klay and KD.

Hell give either of these guys prime KD and they are winning multiple chips even without Klay and Dray.

Giannis and Jokic are not top 10 all time

Both are top 20 all time as well

Lebron and Steph are just better lol

Steph > Giannis and Jokic. He changed the game of basketball.

Injuries,Better talent, worse teams compared to the warriors superteams and Cavs, and the new CBA forcing us to give up a lot of our depth(that was also due to poor management for both Gianiss and Jokic).

Steph had crazy good teams, so good that in some years he wasn’t even the best on the team.

Duncan made playoffs every season and was a ray Allen miracle three away from 6-0 in finals

It’s why neither will be in my top 10 all time until they win multiple championships. 

So Giannis and Joker should have left their small market team and joined Lakers and Celtics respectively that should have won them more championships.

I mean you could argue both steph and LeBron had super teams in the era of super teams. Something that the league has moved away from due to cba changes

LeBron is the best player of the 21st century and Steph was on super teams for the majority of the late 2010s. Meanwhile Giannis and Jokic were let down by their front offices

Winning one championship in my opinion is all they need to do. They need to prove they can win, but it’s really hard these days to win multiple rings, teams are too good and the way the second apron works it’s really hard to keep a championship team together.

winning championships is a lot easier when you hand pick every team you play on an leave as soon as you start leaving for another hand picked team

It’s because they’ve spent their entire careers playing in small markets. Big market teams always win far more championships. Lakers, Celtics, etc

Both Shaq and Kareem had to leave their teams to get multiple rings. And Kareem was blessed with having Oscar on his Bucks team (toward the end of his prime, but still, it’s gd Oscar Robertson)

KG had to leave just to get one 

Jokic and Giannis have outperformed expectations. It was the nuggets’ first ring in franchise history. First one for the Bucks in over 50 years

Jordan carried teams and won titles in an era where a singular superstar could still overwhelm defenses. After that period, defenses evolved, spacing improved, and schemes became far more sophisticated, making it far harder for one player to carry a roster deep every year.

LeBron then came along and broke expectations again by dragging teams to the Finals repeatedly, which reset the standard and led to massive backlash whenever he fell short.

Jokic and Giannis are not that. They are elite players, but not generational in the Jordan or LeBron sense. They are closer to players like Charles Barkley great talents who defined their era but were ultimately side actors to a larger league narrative.

Jordan and later LeBron were the gravitational centers of the NBA. Jokic and Giannis are outstanding, but they exist in an era without a single dominant figure, which naturally lowers both expectations and criticism.

Even LeBron had to jump ship to win more rings. Steph won 2 with KD which wouldn’t be possible under current salary rule I think

Go back looking at the eastern conference from 2011 to 2018. Lebron faced 1 1st Team All NBA. 1 in 8 run. Just in the bubble Jokic faced 2 of them. Just for saying the difference in conference they have.

Respective to Lebron, both Giannis and Jokic have been “too loyal” to their team, they sure had more chances to win more if Jokic left the team and Giannis even more. They both had teams with injuries, particularly Giannis had aging teams too.

The league has never had this much parity too, and the rules has changed so much, to cap teams from becoming super teams too.

I mean a big part of that is that the generation you speak (Giannis/Jokic) has had huge overlap in their respective careers with Curry/Lebron.

Are ppl plain retarted or they just act like that. GSW had klay (severall time allstar and maybe even better spotup shooter than steph for a few seasons + all nba defender), draymond (all nba defender). Fckin igudoala and several others. Oh i forgot kd ? Now compare jokic team to that and you will have your answer.

The NBA has been a shitshow the past 10 years with the rule changes. The only team that had a legitimate chance at continuing a “dynasty” run was the warriors and they pissed it away

For example if that idiotic CBA wasnt signed, Nuggets would repeat in 2024 if they could keep their championship roster. If Jokic or Giannis were on the Lakers or American or had a different personality they would probably each have 4 titles by now

A big reason is they have had less talented teams

Lebron rigged the league and bailed on his team while colluding with two other superstars.

Curry was already on a stacked team when Durant made a generational bitch move to join him.

Giannis and Jokic won in small markets, on their own terms, with less talent around them.

1991-2003 was Jordan, Dream, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq as champs. Any other star in the mix during that decade+, nope.

Yes

People will claim there is more parity but that is just an illusion created by more impactful players getting injured more frequently. The fact that Jokic has remained relatively healthy and has failed consistently to take advantage of teams that are crippled by injuries says a lot. At least Giannis has genuinely been injured which has prevented him from accomplishing more.

They got unlucky. Jokic for sure could’ve capitalized on OKC’s inexperience last year to win another, and in ²⁰²¹⁄₂₀₂₂ they had no Murray. The bucks were the best team in the NBA from 2019-2022 but choked game 3 vs the raptors in 2019, lost their sauce when the NBA went to Disney world, and lost Middleton in 2022.

Adam Silver keeps taking a hammer to players’ achilles tendons…

Everyone in this comments section saying Steph had super teams ignoring the fact that his 2022 title was won with far less help than ANY of Lebron’s 4 rings is legitimately fucking laughable lmao.

You can also argue his 2015 supporting cast was below any of Lebron’s. 2016 Cavs is the closest. But in 2015, Klay hard underperformed and Dray was way better in 2016 than in 2015.

Let’s stop acting like Lebron was winning 4 rings without the Heat move which allowed the Cavs to rebuild into what they became by 2015. If he never left the Cavs the dude would have like 1-2 rings max.

That’s not on him, that’s just how it is. Acting like Steph is the one who used superteams when the team with KD only won 2 of them is what makes this whole thing stupid. The Heatles WERE a superteam.

This is why I’ve always thought rings and finals appearances shouldn’t be used as the end-all-be-all accolades people lean on them for, especially this century. Everything is situational, some guys are great and also playing on super teams with other great players, some guys are dealing with different circumstances with regards to competition in their conferences or in the Finals. No one ever carries a team to a title by themselves.

im just happy both got a ring

What playing in Milwaukee and Denver does to a mfer

The nba is much more competitive these days . Plus, LeBron needed to form his little super teams every year

Because they’re not as good tbh. More to the game than counting stats. Bron and Steph demoralised the shit out of teams, nobody is going to see Giannis is Charlotte.

This is actually a tough one. They’re great players but do we give them the credit or critiques they deserve but based on things that Trainers, Coaches, GMs and owners have done to put each player in their particular position. Also, Lebron and Steph have been better players, with better coaches for longer and not every top 5 player is going to make the Finals.

Combination of things. The main reason imo is that Jokic and Giannis don’t have the same level of teammates that LeBron and Steph had. LeBron and Steph won half their rings on super teams that likely couldn’t be formed under today’s CBA. With that, there’s obviously more parity now than there was in the 2010s, which makes it harder for teams to win multiple championships.

There’s also the fact that Jokic and Giannis themselves aren’t as good as prime Lebron and Steph. Lebron is a consensus top 3 player OAT and arguably the GOAT to some people; Curry is generally considered to be top 10 OAT & is indisputably the greatest shooter ever. Having two top 10 OAT players competing against each other in the league at the same time & having that much team success is not the norm, nor is it a good reference point to gauge the success/dominance of the current best players. We are in a completely different era now, two players appearing in ⁹⁄₁₀ of a decade’s finals is unlikely to happen again for a very long time (if ever.)

Seriously comparing them to Steph and LeBron..? Steph got some help from several all star calibre player, and he also got KD at one point. LeBron got D wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Davis and now Luka.

laughs in Wemby

Damn, it’s almost as if you can’t compare the ability of individual players by who’s had the most team success. Maybe “Who’s got more rings?” Is dumb

The bulls had 50+ wins without MJ, Steph literally had the best team in the history of the game whilst Gianni’s hasn’t even had a true Max player with him. Lillard is a max player based on history and not what he did on the bucks

Jokic had Murray who’s either been injured or coming back from injury for years and no all star teammates

Luck

Not everyone makes it to the big dance.

Lol give prime KD to Jokic see what happens

Lebron had 2 rings at 30. There’s still time

The league has never been this stacked imo.

You could take a handful of players in the league today and say they are all time greats.

Because they were never so clearly n1 or above the pack. Jokic first mvp in 21 he won because embid and Lebron got injured who were far ahead on odds half way into the year with jokic a distant third at +1200( honestly prob like a peak Tatum type odds at that point ). Giannis was out played by kd in the 2021 playoffs . Steph was the best player in the 22 playoffs or atleast a case. By this point Giannis offensive limitations hurt his teams a lot in playoffs plus not staying healthy , but they were never good enough after 21 and Giannis can’t carry elite offence vs elite playoff defensive players. He’s more a flat track bully on offence .

Jokic lack of rim protection has cost him heavily in a lot of series , the Minnesota ones especially but even others. Jokic team mates injured 21-22 , and his vulnerability on defence reduces his overall impact from dominant firce to dominant offense force but bleeds some value bsck . I think if jokic was a elite or just good rim protector even with all the other flaws he’d have more success.

Add in that shai has arrived , embid was better a year or half a year , then you get a more accurate picture. Shai honestly by the data been the n1 pkayer since last year or atleast co1.

When you aren’t SO CKEARLY the best player you won’t carry your team to wins as much plus you have actual holes in your game that a Lebron doesn’t and Steph defense issue was far smaller due to role and team comp.

Giannis has been injured in pretty much all his playoffs except for the chip one but people call ad glass. The reality is, AD has been more available than Giannis in the post season lol

Jokic and Giannis did not have multiple all stars, let a lone one all star alongside them

The didn’t have team like the other 2 did

Steph perennial finals? This is KD erasure.

It’s a new league. Players move around much easier than before which is why they made such penalizing tax on high spending teams. Just like it’s hard to compare eras due to rule changes, same goes for franchises and players winning championships with those franchises. The league wanted parity and they got it, now there’s guys like you complaining superstars didn’t win a ton of championships

the teams at the top are close enough where one injury can kind of change the rankings around

it’s just parity i think

if OKC had a second bonafide star that’d feel more like previous teams, but as good as they are they definitely have some offensive woes outside of shai some nights, they’re still going to be an awful out for most every team though because of the defense

since the salary cap kind of forces teams to drop depth a lot of the time it just kind of slowly turned into this

a team like the pacers last year probably never has the run that they do in previous generations, but with the parity and injuries mattering even more?

it’s a lot easier for someone to slip through

the issue for the top teams will be health mattering because of depth more than ever

Its a team game, please study

Neither have chased rings like LeBron has.

Small market teams is my biggest x factor here

People call lebron’s tenure with the lakers a failure because they only win one without realizing that since 2019, no team has ever won twice. I don’t see anyone calling Giannis and Joker a failure because they only win one. The CBA is designed to prevent dynasties.

Tatum and Brown:

Lebron team hopped his way to the Finals and the Curry had a generational team comp and coach set up.

Prime Jokic or Giannis do not compare to prime Lebron. Steph had the perfect team built around to maximize him and revolutionized the game to what we see today.

There is ton of parity in the NBA now. Also while they have played with very good players neither one has ever played with another great player to make consistent finals trips easier 

How is this a question?

Great teams win titles. Lebron and Steph were winning titles on arguably the best rosters in the league.

Lebron famously joined up with Wade in Miami and Bosh came along. Steph had a great team that ADDED Durant to it at no cost.

Jokic and Giannis are doing the league on hard mode in an era where the league is tougher. 10 years ago 90% of the league was bum teams. Genuinely large majority of teams had bums in their starting lineup. Nowadays, even the bum teams have really good players. And there barely are any bum teams.

But make no mistake. If Nuggets stay healthy. Jokic is adding titles to his resume regardless of how tough the league is. He don’t need the best roster in the league. He just needs a bench that isnt historically bad and he good.

Well, yeah. That’s why Jokic and Giannis aren’t top 10 all-time but LeBron and Steph are.

I think both extremes are unprecedented. This level of parity is new, but I also think it’s unfair to judge players because they didn’t make 8 straight finals.

Nobody wins multiple titles in the NBA without having a couple Hall of Fame caliber players on their roster. Since 1980, look at the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Bulls, and Lakers again, and that takes us into the 2000s. Look at what ALL those teams had…multiple Hall of Famers. Usually 3 or more.

Why do you hate Nikola jokic man

I think it’s pretty impressive how those guys elevated two bad franchises.

You need to have a consistently good team for that to happen. Not one player can do it alone

The CBA is the main cause. There’s so much parity now, and I seriously doubt Lebron, Steph, MJ, etc. would have played in so many Finals in the current NBA. You can’t build dynasties like teams used to because it will get way too expensive very quickly.

I’ll also add that injury luck played a big part for Giannis and Jokic, especially Jokic. I think the Nuggets were the best team in the NBA immediately following the Gordon trade in 20-21, and I would have picked the Nuggets for the title. But then Murray tore his ACL, and Jokic immediately lost one peak year to win a ring. Then Murray and MPJ missed all of 21-22, so that team was dead in the water with a huge chunk of their payroll on their bench. In other words, Murray’s injury completely killed Jokic’s chance at a ring in his first two MVP seasons. That’s brutal.

Giannis’ best shot at a second ring was obviously 18-19 when they were up 2-0 on the Raptors (but even then, it’s only in hindsight knowing the Warriors would get injured in the Finals). His second-best shot was in 21-22, and that was ruined by injury. Middleton got hurt in the second game of the playoffs, but the Bucks still somehow took the Celtics to 7 games in the second round. With Middleton, I think they might have won that series and had a very good chance to win the title.

Boston and OKC both have a chance at going to and winning multiple finals. The east is weak so I imagine Boston got another 1-2 finals trips. OKC is just young asf