Yeah they did nothing for us except for the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system and public health.

Pretty sure they gave us aqueducts that give +6 housing to civilizations

And I’m going to go on a little rant, OJ DID IT!

That was a 3OT game though, not 48 minutes

This is phrased like you’re disagreeing, but is supporting the point made above that pace of play has changed.

There is a difference between pace of play, which is more about style of basketball, and how athletically quick everyone is. I’d love to see an 80s center try to guard a center 30 feet out today

so would you say the pace of play has changed since then?

“The only thing Ben Simmons can’t do is shoot” which entails free-throw shooting, mid-range shooting, 3-point shooting which affects his attacking, play-making, and spacing for his teammates.

Athleticism got nothing to do with a three pointer my brother

That’s not at all his point lol. He’s saying the players in his era were just as good but shot more 2s on better efficiency.

That’s objectively wrong. He’s salty

The thing is, there’s a reason there’s more talent in the NBA today than 35 years ago.

In 1990 almost all the talent in the NBA was drawn from the US and Canada. Almost no foreign born players existed, only like 12 players were not American or Canadian.

The massive gap between the US and the World was apparent with the Dream Team which destroyed every team they played.

But basketball went global. Basketball became MUCH more popular in Europe and Africa and the gap between the US and others teams shrank dramatically.

More than a quarter if NBA players are foreign born and the MVP award has been dominated by nonUS players for years.

The population base that the NBA draws on today to supply players is much bigger than 30 years ago. Instead od drawing on like 300M today it draws from countries totalling well iver double that.

If you’re the best among randomly selected 500 people, there’s a good chance you aren’t as good as the the best among 1000 people.

Thats not even getting into advancements in physical training and recovery.

There is very good reason to believe the players of today are more talented.

First ballot HOF

He’s also a generational moron. Hes a great player but that doesn’t mean he actually understands anything.

im a pistons fan and i cant stand isiah anymore.

Feel like Kareem and Russel just love the game also

AI is a legend even if he didn’t give flowers.

I would say it’s not just a feeling of devalue but in basketball society it seems to be said as if written in stone.

People may say Babe Ruth would struggle in today’s game, but nobody says Barry Bonds would. Yet Bonds and MJs era had significant cross over in when they occurred.

Similar thoughts for QBs in football. No one pretends Joe Montana couldn’t compete nowadays, they just acknowledge we pass more and the game has changed but he would be able to change with it.

NBA is in a realm of its own in actively devaluing prior generations. We act as if it would be infeasibly for Magic Johnson to be good in the modern game because of how he played in the 80s. We make some older dudes sound like they are ass. So it would piss me off too.

This is 100 percent valid.

Of course, it doesn’t mean older generations are right, but it’s a valid emotion that old gens have been grappling with for as long as I’ve watched basketball. I’ve always thought many players just didn’t know how to process that transition out of the limelight.

When I was younger, it was guys like Oscar and Wilt who were spouting off about the young guns of the early ‘90s. Then Chuck and Shaq. Then (take your pick of 2000s players). If I were a betting man, players from the current game will turn around and begin spouting off about players in the 2030s too.

Listen here, this is Reddit. We don’t take kindly to nuanced perspectives around these parts.

MJ dont hate the new guys though.

Can you imagine the type of hater content in 20 years from players who grew up in social media?

The sound bites from podcasts and interviews today will pale in comparison to the crash outs on live streams and whatever the Twitter equivalent is

every 90s old head thinks that about that era lmao

Plus I don’t recall him being much of a long range shooter (?) so he’s probably insecure about that and how he would’ve struggled more in today’s game.

People not understanding the confidence is a key point. Thats what drove them and made them the players they are. It’s like that Jalen Williams thread in the KD warriors and Bulls - what do you expect him to say. Which is like the attitude some fans have about legends “Goooddd, why can’t these old heads just admit the new guys would all wipe the floor with them?” Given their makeup, why would they do this? If they wouldn’t have done it for their peers that they were playing against on the court outside on a long summer day, why would they do it now?

It’s probably the most individual of the team sports, where 1 player can single-handedly carry a team. But also one player plays both ends and can conceivably play for the majority of playtime. Doesn’t work in any of the other major team sports AFAIK. 

The worst part is when fans enjoy that stuff. They throw around excuses like “that is what it takes to win.” I have never understood how being a shitty person to your teammates helps you win.

Don’t forget that it’s a bigger pool of players to choose from. The game is more global than ever, which is evident by the top 5 players in the league. There’s also way more resources for developing young talent, and even poor kids can find good guides on YouTube to help improve in a more efficient way.

Anyone who thinks the league isn’t more talented than it’s ever been is just clueless.

Better pharmacists too.

I will say the basketball players are a lot smarter these days, but 100% of them are on a cycle. And it’s also probably why so many are blowing out their ligaments because they are using PEDs and they get stronger and more conditioned than their joints can compensate for.

Username checks out

Tbf Shaq alone had 7 footers in the NBA just to put a body on him.

He might be referring to weight. The average nba player is almost 10 pounds heavier than when Thomas played.

Modern guys spend hours on the court and in the weight room optimizing their bodies for basketball. There are nutrition specialists making sure players eat well enough to recover and grow.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6yazpf/oc_average_weight_of_nba_players_by_season/

Even that’s significant when you consider that we’re playing ‘small ball’ these days. There’s less bigs on a roster but still the average player is bigger.

Being allowed to do what you want with traveling, screens, palming and flopping is far stronger of a tool than just Banning a certain type of defense

You forget there was hand checking. No flagrant fouls til 91. No crossover until 91ish. 1 ¹⁄₂ steps or travel. No palming.

Offense was WAY harder then

They stood around and watched shooting guards iso or watched centers bang and put up bricks

Movement was much lower in the past

Because the game is far more taxing on the body. Just watch a random possession in the 90s and compare it to a random possession today, there’s far more ball/man movement in today’s game.

I’d be able to play 40 mins too holding my cock 20 seconds out of 24 second possession because my star is isoing someone and i get to watch courtside while i pretend to move for 2 seconds in possession then just do nothing

Yeah I was gonna say the bad boys pistons would’ve grabbed a baseball bat and kneecapped him 💀

I wouldn’t put it past him, though what I saw most recently is that he ranks Curry as one of the greatest point guards of all-time, in an echelon behind Magic and Oscar.

“To me, at his size, what he’s been able to do in the game and when, you know, cause there have been a lot of great players our size, but he and I are the only ones that can say that we won. Everybody else can say, ‘Yeah I was good, yeah, you got all that ya, ya, ya,’ but at the end of the day, you know, one’s holding a trophy, the other is not,” Isiah pointed out. “Winners over here, the losers over there.

“So, I would say Magic and Oscar because of their size,” he continued. “They have an advantage over Steph and I genetically but you know, depending on your preference, do you like Steph or do you like me? But to me, that’s the point guard [GOAT] conversation.”

Yeah because they wouldn’t know how to guard him and they would instead try any way to injure him

Oh wow an actual good take on here lol. Isiah would be absolutely dominant in todays game

2004 I assume you mean since that was most recent? I loved that season, Pistons were huge underdogs.

Or did you mean 1989? Since this post was about Isiah Thomas?

I watched a clip of the 1991 finals and it was so much slower than what I’m used to

• 1984-1992: 88.1 FGA/game
• 2017-2025: 88.4. FGA/game

During his career, there’s no shortage of examples where Magic, as an oversized point guard, would be dribbling with his back down to his defender from above the 3 point line for an extended period while he evaluated his options. But there’s also no shortage of examples where the Lakers “Showtime” offense was flying down the court.

The ‘91 finals are not a fair representation of basketball from that era due to the Lakers having a severely battered roster: James Worthy was out after game 1, and Byron Scott went from battered to completely out (let’s not forget the Lakers’ pill of a centre, Kareem, had retired the prior season). Gameplay slowed in the 1991 finals for the same reason everything slowed down in the 2015 finals: everything went through Magic & Lebron.

But NBA pacing was fast in the 80s/early 90s. We’re talking about [

105 ppg](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html). Yes, pacing is even higher today, but that’s primarily because the league has aggressively discouraged physicality, and 3 point shooting + efficiency are through the roof. If you look at field goal attempts, pacing is virtually equivalent.

A major difference in the “speed” of the game is once the offense starts organizing a play. In the 70s, 80s, and 90s, the goal was often to get the ball as close to the net as possible (that’s why you’ll see plays where there’s 6-8 players all crammed around the net). Once the ball was inside, the ball wasn’t going to travel huge distances (and, consequently, neither were defenders). Modern basketball often has defenders scrambling to chase the ball at 3 point range. In aggregate, there’s more movement. We don’t have to look any futher than the front page of /r/nba today for a shining example of this.

“Excruciating” is an exaggeration. The game had a great flow to it back then, especially Magic’s Lakers. He is a truly phenomenal point guard and a clip or two doesn’t tell the full story of how he controlled the game.

At the very least, the game wasn’t being interrupted by challenges, reviews, and touch fouls every 30 seconds.

Nba is the only league where this is even a conversation. Leagues don’t get less skilled over time. It’s so weird. I’m old enough to remember 90s basketball. A lot of standing in the paint. Significantly less off ball movement. Watching 90s highlights people are enamored with the dunks but watch the defense. It’s commonly horrible defense or a missed assignment.

shooting mechanics and training are so much more advanced. It’s not disrespectful to previous players to acknowledge this.

If IT played in today’s game he’d be better too probably. Because he’d train more effectively.

Its even worse, the NBA for decades refused to take 3s, because they couldnt hit these shots at any reliable volume.

Then you don’t like ball.

They would all stand around watching two clunky bigs crowd the the paint then shoot long twos all night. It just looks like they’re playing around out there when you watch it. How would any of those older guys cover modern offenses?

People act like shooting more 3s is like doing rocket science compared to basic arithmetic.

Dudes like Brook Lopez went from being a traditional back to the basket center to a stretch 5 through working on a different skillset. I’m not gonna sit here and pretend none of the older guys couldn’t have done the same if the game changed this way when they were playing.

That’s not “evolution” though, it’s advancements in sports science and the increasing capital invested into sports, allowing for deeper investment at younger ages. It’s that society has advanced and this is one of many outcomes.

I agree with what you’re saying, I’m just saying the person you replied to was making a point about this being conflated with biological evolution which this very much isn’t.

You say it’s overstated, but you also say that it’s not about literal evolution in that context. I’d argue that it is often in that context, and it’s reasonable for a former athlete to be miffed when they’re talking about them like they’re an Australopithecus.

The improvements in talent capture and overall pipeline is certainly a huge factor, but I think that it’s been overstated in some ways. We see the biggest effects on the lower ends of the spectrum, bench warmers are significantly more athletic, but the best athletes in the league are highly comparable. The same is true for most human endeavors.

You are taking about 2 of the top 10 players of all time. He is talking about comparing the down-roster guys and his is correct.

Okay, you responded to this guys relatively silly statement with another. Yeah MJ and Shaq, two of the greatest of all time would be fine in this era. But the average role player is much better and stronger and faster these days. Look at what the average big man can do versus the scrubs in the 1990’s. Daniel Gafford is so much better than Luc Longley it isn’t even funny.

Ajay Mitchell would smoke almost any role player from Isiah Thomas’ day.