I think Mark talked about this last year during the playoffs, basically saying he could bench a guy like Dort with ⁴⁄₅ fouls late in the game, but you’re wasting the potential for him to continue to impact the game, and essentially fouling him out on your own accord. Keep him in a get all you can out of him and maybe he fouls out, but what’s the difference if he was going to ride the bench anyways

The product isn’t enjoyable though. If teams are taking this approach I’d like to see the fouls lowered to 5, and flopping being charged as an offensive foul.

But they’ve always been a resource. Coaches tell you to attack players who have fouls on their names in the hope of fouling them out or getting your team going at the line. Its been a thing for the 20 years ive played basketball. Every single aspect of the game is a resource to try and get ahead.

Pretty sure wemby and others on our team have said in interviews when questioned about getting in foul trouble, they are told to take risks even when in foul trouble this season.

Isn’t that what “Hacks” were during the Shaq later years? Have two or three big guys on the roster just to hack him

Ironically playing the refs is also a part of the game. Everyone likes to act like the refs are supposed to be objective so they always will be. The refs are also human and they make mistakes and have preferences. Modern basketball should treat refs as a resource too. We all know certain players has certain whistles, Id like to think a successful team should have some strategy to manipulate ruling. The current ‘foul all the time the refs cant call every time’ is a valid and legit strategy.

It’s all an offshoot of the 3 being too valuable, relatively. Incentivising the most boring play in basketball (a FT) is bad for the viewer and the future of the game. I can’t really blame the teams on this one, but the NBA Competition Committee needs to start taking their jobs as seriously as the NFL does.

I’m not convinced how true the intent is in Wemby’s case, but if it is, that would be a bad approach for someone whom the entire offense and defense is centered upon. All fouls are not created equal.

This would be fixed if the NBA took away a foul and you fouled out after 5 fouls like in college. Teams would be a lot more concerned about using fouls.

It’d probably be too extreme but in soccer a red card is an ejection from the current game and a ban for the next game

And most coaches are too reactive and job focused to be afforded the ability to create new strategies based on the individual talents of their squad.

They copy what works at the behest of management or high profile players / agents and get shitter

Honestly Id include the Heat as one of the teams that valued defense, their blitzing was really good plus they had the benefit of having superstars that were awesome defensively

I appreciate the good context.

so what you’re saying is that defense has always been important to winning championships?

I would argue the mavs in 2011 started pace and space, Miami copied it and improved it while the spurs in 14 mastered it.

It also benefits them since they are 11+ deep with starter-level players.

You can’t outfoul them this year with such a young quality bench.

Maybe next year when their big 3 money finally hits and they need to move off some guys.

I think its the other way around.

Refs seemingly try to keep fouls on both teams even. If one team has few fouls they will call more fouls on to make up for it - it seems.

Which is why in the previous season Dort could get away with a ton of stuff that would have been fouls. Now he probably wont because refs wont have to ignore stuff he does because both teams are fouling at the same pace.

Except the NBA isn’t refereed fairly, it’s refereed equitably

The Thunder have a legion of elite defenders who know how to defend physically without getting whistled. Other teams might have a couple of those guys, but it’s not as effective a strategy if you have lesser defenders who will just get caught for being overly aggressive.

It’s extremely obvious why OKC supposedly gets away with stuff that no other team does and it’s because more often than not their perimeter defenders don’t fall for the same tricks that damn near every other team in the league does. There are other guys in the league that have guarded Shai the same way OKC’s guys guard other stars and he only gets a few free throws, and that’s because they know how to be physical without just hacking like a dumbass and they know how to be in position with their body. Dyson Daniels, Herb Jones, and Nembhard all play defense the exact same way as most of our guys do

This is how offensive lines work in the NFL for sure. Can’t call holding every play!

Exactly. This plays out every Super Bowl. The amount of holding by offensive lines and defensive backs skyrockets because the refs don’t want to kill the product by throwing flags so if it’s not PI they let it all go. Teams know this and coach their players to hold a lot in the big game. 

The Thunder know that too many fouls doesn’t look good and they know where on the court they can get away with it. You don’t see them committing stupid reach fouls on jumpers. You see them digging at the ball like crazy in the gaps because you get a TON of leeway on reaching when you bring two to the ball. 

The bubble lakers would do this as well. Pick up a bunch of fouls the first half and then they’re able to get away with a ton of contact the second half.

They’re just saying that OKC has pushed this philosophy to an extreme and is getting rewarded for it so all the other teams are starting to follow suit. Hope you like watching free throws lol

Flood the zone lmao

I think being the first is part of the reason they’re more immune to the refs 

They picked up a “great aggressive defense” reputation so instead of their strategy now being recognized as intentional meta of taking risk of fouling for the chance of getting steals blocks.

They were seen as just a aggressive defense 

Lakers flair complaining about refereeing is hilarious

If you touch the ball first most contact is considered incidental. More referees are now stating this when fouls get challenged. Another is the hand is a part of the ball, so swiping down and hitting the hand is not a foul. Also if you are in a legal guarding position and the offensive player makes contact on a drive or post up most contact is considered incidental as well. That’s why when Jokic or any player like Luka try to post or back down the Thunder get even more physical because a defensive player has a right to his space and can fight for it. That also means he can be more handsy. Historically refs do not call as many fouls in the paint, this is just facts, so being able to dig and be physical has been the Thunders M.O. as they play inside the rules and stretch them. As most rules have wiggle room to be interpreted a myriad of ways.

One of the things Zach mentions in the pod is that ‘the refs won’t call every foul.’ And it’s true. Teams that play with more physicality are usually rewarded with a more lenient whistle.

It’s simply because OKC are the team that Adam silver decided would be best to rig for ratings. That huge market over in Oklahoma…

Do people really think that you can just copy Golden State by shooting more threes? That ignores the fact that they have 6-7 guys who can shoot and the two best shooters of all time.

That’s you ten years ago. This is how the game evolves.

6 or 7 you say 🤗

Once you get the rep of being a good defender the refs start giving you the benefit of the doubt and only then can you finally get away with mauling people. But everyone has to start somewhere. If you just play physical when you can the refs will eventually make a habit of not blowing the whistle when you get stops.

Much like bad teams who live or die by three point variance, now on defense they will live or die by how much fouling they can get away with.

You can’t copy their defence but you can copy their intensity. The finals pacers are a good example that majority of you may not be brilliant defensively, but as a team you can be

And they play defense exactly like its coached at every level. Keep hips square, body in front and arms out or up.

Even though it backfired it was pretty funny during the suns/bucks finals when the fans were counting how damn long he took to shoot

FTs sadly is just an inherent flaw in the game. In other sports - hockey, soccer, the game becomes more exciting when a foul happens, not less. Basketball is the most fun sport in the world, but it has deep flaws, especially on a professional level, and as a viewer.

e FT execution quicker. Be strict on calling shooters out for taking too long, and make players set up quick. And no subs between shots either, like in FIBA.

they literally have a shot clock already, that is integral to the game. They could just use that.

MLB added a pitch clock to speed up the game and it worked. There’s already a clock for free throws but 10 seconds is too long and not enforced.

Went to a game last Tuesday with my daughter. Game started at 7:30 and the refs kept calling fouls and reviewing plays. The half didn’t end till almost 9. We left early because the game took too long.

The product on the court sucks because I’m not a fan of watching a free throw shooting contest.

I don’t know, I think it misses the point. I dont have a problem with fouls being called or free throws. The real problem right now are that 

1. The league needs to seriously penalize flopping and fake neck snapping.
2. Foul calls seem really inconsistent. 

Yeah.

I think the strategy also needs a deeper roster to work because maximising it requires multiple guys taking the risk of fouling out, which means you need plug-n-play guys off the bench who can step in without compromising the team’s defensive structure.

With the second apron, that means salary has to be spread more evenly, not front loaded into a big 3 or a fantastic 5. If your team lacks plug-n-play bench depth, your starters can never risk fouling out since doing so means they will be replaced with much, much less experienced/talented players in the final stretch of games - the most critical part of the game.

This might also tie into what JJ Reddick said not that long ago in a post presser:

“One of the biggest problems in terms of defense is young teams using modern NBA concepts. The amount of movement and actions that you have to guard on one possession, and then they are playing at a 103, 104, 105 pace. That’s really taxing. That formula I think works for some teams.”

Emphasis mine. At the time, I suspected he was talking specifically about OKC which:

1. is a young team who can play at a ferocious pace (turn the ball over more and in theory generate more possessions than the other team).
   
2. has a deep and (relatively) cheap roster. This will change next year because JDub and Chet are about to get paid the big bucks. For now they are miles under the 2nd apron.
   
3. has a front office that has been weaponizing draft picks for years so even if they have players due to be paid, they can afford to move off them and promote everyone below them 1 spot in the roster.
   

Honestly, I think point 3 is better for long term team culture too since it keeps players churning. If a much loved player becomes too expensive to keep? Thank you for your services. A spot opens in the starting roster for everyone lower in the pecking order to compete for. Being good enough to nail down that starting spot gets you paid. The team can afford to pay you because their cap situation isn’t fucked trying to build the basketball avengers and 10 rookies/washed vet minimums.

They can still potentially draft high first rounders in championship contending years because of their 2026, 27, 28 pick swaps with DAL and LAC. And they control like half the league’s picks anyway so even if they don’t have a home grown, like for like replacement for a guy who is too expensive to keep, well then can overpay for the right guy on another team because they have a mountain of assets. So I think as oppressive as the 2nd apron is, I think the OKC template is best positioned to successfully navigate it long term.

I mean its genius really. Fuckin Sam Presti, man.

yeah its the result of OKC bluffing and everyone else (the refs) folding

The strategy isn’t to foul. The strategy is to go for more steals and deflections EVEN IF they have a higher chance of a foul. Not the same thing

That’s not even the biggest issue. The nba is so hilariously inconsistent night to night and that’s the real problem. It’s just like the tush push the idea isn’t the problem it’s the way it’s inconsistently officiated. If okc can play physical defense that’s fine but then they shouldn’t also get the calls shai gets for being breathed on. We also need to call flopping traveling and a bunch of other shit more as well. It’s a weird situation where refs have way too much say night to night, crew to crew.

What should the harsher punishment be?

Less fouls before you foul out? Fines? Inhaling ramen flavor packets?

I agree with you, but when you get to billions in revenue, advertising, clothing brands, grooming children to be athletes so they can change their family lives, basically shoving money everywhere, it’s no longer about basketball.

The NBA is no longer about basketball. I love it and watch it because of the game, but it’s not been about the game in a while.

I wholeheartedly agree with you tho, especially on the first part. 

When they’re in the half court, they’re basically just counting on Shai to create something.

Which he does with disturbing ease and regularity. 

I haven’t looked up his iso numbers but they must be nonsense. 

Which just goes to show, get yourselves an SGA or vague equivalent. 

Give them less time at the ft line. 5 seconds instead of 10

Either let em play or call everything. This stupid shit where certain teams have entirely different whistles is so detrimental to the game. I have no problem with okc being allowed to play physical defense but then you better not call fouls when someone breathes in Shai’s general direction. Shai should get the same whistle that the person lou dort defends does, but he doesn’t.

Absolutely. I’m all for the refs calling a game fairly, but nobody has ever had a good time watching 50+ FTA in a game

Don’t worry, this style of play allows the refs to have even more control of the outcome. Choosing to ignore fouls and flops and now they’re probably anticipating fouls being committed every play.

You also don’t get to shoot after all fouls until the bonus, so that helps the math as well.

You also take away the initial shot. So the difference is only 0.6, getting a normal shot at 1.0 vs free throws at 1.6. If you roughly manage to get a steal worth one point for every extra foul that cost 0.6 you are nicely positive.

For okc generally, turnovers often lead to wide open fast breaks, and open path layups and dunks have a much higher expected value than just any fg attempt. So while a shot inside the 3pt line might have an average expected value close to 1, that’s not an accurate measure for the type of shot often being generated, that’s gonna be a lot closer to the full 2

League average free throw percentage this season is .789 so 2 * .789 =1.578

League average points per possession this season is 1.138

So ignoring the fact that the first non-shooting fouls don’t result in free throws, and ignoring that fouls contribute to possibly fouling out, each time you commit a foul that is called you give up 1.578-1.138 or .44 points.

So, 1.138 / ..44 gives you a sense of a worthwhile ratio of fouls called per turnovers called, or 2.59.

In other words, you can get called for a foul 2.5 times as often as you force a turnover and you are still coming out ahead.

This also ignores the fact that most attempts at steals are not called for fouls. So it seems that aggressive attempts at steals pays off.

This strategy also rewards teams that are deep. The harm of your starters playing fewer minutes because of getting in foul trouble or fouling out is less when you have solid replacements behind them. Another advantage to OKC.

Well the math isn’t mathing anyway because points scored and offensive rating.are way up.

The big bet is that the refs stop calling fouls after awhile, kinda like how Draymond does with technicals.

They don’t want to toss players out over minor ticky-tack fouls.

Because it’s still less than 3 points, which most teams are shooting a bunch of.

Having more shots is better, steals leading to easy transition as layups are the most efficient shot in the NBA, 90% of shooting fouls occur in the lane so driving to the basket (layups on transition) adds to the efficiency.

You get an advantage because fouls have to be stacked up for the team to use it as an advantage, in the bonus which is the fifth foul for every quarter. So the Thunder have five fouls to force turnovers. So in a game that’s 20 fouls. So getting steals and forcing turnovers gives you extra possessions that the other team cannot make up unless you commit turnovers.

It’s about numbers, and the basics of greater vs lesser. This also goes into the theory that a layup is better than a three pointer

News flash, they actually don’t know what they are doing. The NBA is a bush league copy cat league. They just do this stuff to keep their jobs for appearances. The one good thing that might happen is it causes some rule changes

Yes it would be much better if they just stopped allowing fouls, like it’s basically a bluff the refs are not calling

And more injuries.

thank you

Draymond has been doing it for years man.

I agree with everything except that last part. The new upcoming stars seem to be from the USA

75 ftas in the last OKC-Wolves IST game. Awful.

It didn’t, the exact opposite. The top 7 seasons with the highest FT% in history are the 7 seasons between 2019-2025. This season is the #1 in history actually

Is trending up all the time. League is more skilled and less and less bigs who only hit ⁵⁰⁄₆₀%

I don’t think that many people ever had an issue with more physical defense on its own. It’s the discrepancy in reffing and how you’re the only team allowed to play that way.

Just because your team is doing it doesn’t mean it’s good.

The majority of fans don’t want to watch free throw fests and 2x more commercial breaks because teams are loading up on fouls. Free flowing basketball with fewer interruptions is always a better thing.

Physical basketball doesn’t equate to fouling. You can play physically without hacking at the ball and fouling. If you’re old enough to remember the pistons of the mid 00s or the Spurs, they played pretty great defense. 

The fans want defense. But only for THEIR team. Anything else is just a dirty foul and the team should be fired into the sun.

We want the same for every team, but as long as the refs are calling fouls inconsistently, fans watching the games are gonna complain