Stan Van Gundy: “Jokic might be the best player in the history of the game…..If I had to take one guy in history right now, not just in today, I’m taking Jokic”
I love Jokic, but I just don’t think you can put him on the same tier with MJ or LeBron. Both are on their own spectrum.
Both are offensive GOAT’s while actually playing defense
And did it in the postseason for many years. Jokic hasn’t had that many truly great postseason runs. LeBron was getting to the finals for almost a decade.
jokic’s playoff career avgs are 27-12-8-1-1. put jokic in the east and see how many finals he makes
He still doesn’t make 8 in a row
Jokic with Kyrie would make 3 in a row lol. Maybe do 3⁄4 with Wade and Bosh too? Not including the likes of Love, Korver, Allen, Miller that would thrive with Jokic.
The main difference is the level of safety LeBron would provide his teammates during those years. When shit got real, LeBron would just turn it the fuck on and ruin some kids 12th birthday.
As much as I like Jokic, he’s not doing it that easily. Miami’s entire defense was predicated on switch heavy schemes and Lebron was the quarterback of it for those 4 years. Replacing him with Jokic is going to hurt those defenses tremendously. Those heat teams also struggled with injuries to both Wade and Bosh in all those runs post 2011, Jokic is not getting past the Pacers or the Celtics without Bosh for almost the entirety of BOTH series in 2012. Let alone Wade being a complete shell of himself during the 2013 and 2014 playoff runs.
He doesn’t do it in 2018, 15 either after love gets injured imo. 2017 and 2016 he definitely could though.
Exactly. Not to mention that Miami didn’t have a true center, even with Bosh protecting the paint.
People forget that while the Nuggets dominated the Lakers, and Jokic was getting buckets, AD was treating Jokic like food too.
Kyrie barely played in the 2015 playoffs and wasn’t on the team in 18.
People just get on here and say dumb shit tbh
Okay now do Jokic with lebrons 2018 cavs team and 2007 cavs team.
First stint Cavs Lebron with Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray wins multiple titles.
That last sentence sounded personal lol
“If my mother had wheels” argument
Probably not many if he’s got the same teams around him. Nuggets weren’t beating the 2019 Raptors, 2021 Bucks or 2024 Celtics as constructed. Even those Miami teams were on fire through conference play and only petered out (or got injured) once they got to the Finals. Might have made it last year, although God was clearly on the side of the Pacers until game 7 of the Finals so who knows.
His relative lack of playoff success is a lot more to do with not consistently having a great team around him than either personal failings or which conference he played in.
I don’t see Jokic making the finals in 07, 15, or 18 with the rosters LeBron had. Also LeBron was an elite defender in his prime, Jokic never has been
At the end of the day, Jokic has to sit by helplessly as someone hits a game winner against him, because he’s so limited defensively. Jordan and LeBron both could make a difference on that end.
people have hit game winners on jordan and lebron and every other player in the history of the nba jokic has literally hit game winners on lebron in the playoffs lol
LeBron’s most important play of his entire career was a chase down block. Jokic ain’t doing that
I didn’t say anything against that. I just said that they are capable of making a difference. Jokic is simply not.
Yeah, he’s fantastic on offense against most matchups. But that’s only half the game.
Eastern teams were usually known for their defense and physicality. The West is a better conference cause they have more talented offensive teams
LeBron went west and made several WCFs and won a Finals way past his prime after his run in the East.
Okay but he’s not in the East
Since 2019 we’ve had 3 champions from the east and 3 from the west (one being Denver), league really isn’t so lopsided at the top.
Not as many, LeBron was elite defensively.
Cue Jerry West’s famous quote from way back that he was always even more impressed with MJ’s defense than his offense.
It’s honestly true, especially 1st threepeat bulls. You think going in, you’ll love MJ and Pip ripping teams up offensively.
But it’s their nightmare steal/turnover based defense that makes your eyes pop. No team at that time had any real answer for it. Guards/Wings were just so far below MJ and Scottie.
And even with this idea that NBA players are clearly better than 30 years ago, it kinda falls when you consider LeBron was 6th in MVP voting LAST YEAR. So I’m sure that guy was at least as good 15 years ago lol.
At 40 years old no less lol
The idea completely falls apart when you realize how many careers overlap. Kareem played against Wilt and MJ. MJ played against Kareem and Shaq. LeBron played against Kobe and Luka. None of these players magically fell off. It’s a silly argument from SVG
You could also just use the eye test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1oPuswsgCQ
the eye test is predicated on the viewer actually knowing what they are looking at…and knowing what to look for
If I had to take one guy in history right now, not just in today, (…)
I just cannot imagine going with anything but an S tier 2-way player, especially when the GOAT picture isn’t short on them. Even if you think Jokic overall is on their level, building the rest of the team is more difficult.
Did you listen to what he said?
Every generation wants to believe they’re watching the greatest of all time. People argued Kobe was better than Jordan, then people argued LeBron was better than Jordan. Now people will argue Jokic for a few years, and then Wemby or Luka.
When someone is better than Jordan, and actually is the new greatest of all time, there will not be a debate. It’ll be like Wemby averaging 30-15-10 with 5 blocks, and 6 straight championships.
Jokic is incredible, and like LeBron, he’s the best player of his era.
He’s not even in the Duncan level.
I view Joker kinda like Steph. They’re outliers. By the end of his career, he’ll be one of those players that might not fit the stereotypical “top 5” players (most of them 2 way players); but was so fucking broken offensively it doesn’t even matter.
Even with this Magic Johnson is considered by many to be a top 5 player ever so I feel like saying someone who’s as good offensively as Steph or Jokic is top 5 ever shouldn’t be crazy
It’s why I no longer observe top 5 as a metric and only refer to an inner pantheon and courtyard of greats
Bill Simmons pyramid works wonders for this.
Should be a tier list ranking not at Top 10
Hell ya. Sounds dope.
This is the way.
I’m with you but I do think Bron, Jordan, Kareem, and Russell are a notch above anyone else in the inner circle group
Yeh agree he’s a good precedent for elite defense not being required. Magic’s postseason resume is one of the greatest though, which definitely sets him apart from Jokic. Less of a gap in that department from Steph, depends on one’s attitude towards the KD years. You can argue it’s tougher today to build dynasties and the 80s Lakers were also stacked, but 5 rings in 9 finals appearances is insane
Fwiw Jokics on/off defensive metrics are insane. Hes constantly directing his teammates and calling out opposing plays. His individual defense might not be good but the stats showed him consistently having a dramatic positive impact even if traditional stats do not.
Would you consider him a defensive anchor?
Magic’s postseason resume is one of the greatest though, which definitely sets him apart from Jokic
He only had what, four HOF teammates, or was it five?
In a league with fewer teams, in the era of dynasties, while there’s been 7 different winners in 7 years.
You might as well compare Nascar and F1 drivers.
Yeah honestly, if you’re as good offensively as Magic, Bird, Steph, or Jokic, you deserve consideration even as a one way player. I mean, we already grandfather in Bill Russell who was effectively a one way player the other way.
I’m not sure why you are looping in Bird, he was an above average defender. Not exactly elite but he wasn’t a cone.
bird was elite for a couple of years. he was 3 times all defensive and finished third in defensive player of the league voting. his steals per 100 possessions were on par with shai. before his back gave out he was a great defender.
Bill Russell averaged around the same offensively as KG. He wasn’t exactly useless on offense.
Russell was averaging a full 4 assists per game though for the final 8 years of his career in which he was routinely top 13 in the league in APG so he wasn’t like Ben Wallace or something
Magic’s defensive shortcomings are way overblown.
He wasn’t as good of a 2-way player as Bird, Jordan, or Isiah, but he had active hands which led to lots of steals, was a big body that could disrupt smaller guards, and his defensive rating was never worse than league average (both Steph and Jokic have at least 1 season below league average).
People act like he was a bad defender which is really only true compared to the other greats of his era, not in general.
You see, I think there is factually an issue with how people view Jokic defensively.
What they see is the few times a game where he gets beat by a fast perimeter player or a super-slilled big man and say, “Well, he’s a bad defender!”
What they don’t see is all of the stuff he does exceptionally well within the Nuggets system. The steals, rebounding, positioning, communication, turnover suppression, limiting fast breaks, the size and strength, ect.
Why am I confident in saying that is because teams don’t actually score that much when Jokic is on the floor. “Well, that’s because his teammates are so good!”, you might think to yourself… But that’s not the case either.
Teams score like crazy on the Nuggets when Jokic is on the bench. Teams score below league average when Jokic is on the floor.
Every year.
Every. Single. Year.
Just look at his Defensive Rating compared to the team’s D Rating and the League Average. It’s every god damn year since his rookie season, he has the lowest Defensive Rating on the team amongst regular players (Although Mason Plumlee ties him two years). So how is Nikola Jokic a bad defender when, for an entire decade now, teams actually score noticeably worse than average when he’s on the floor? What do good defenders do? Stop the opponent from scoring. What do the numbers say about Jokic?
This isn’t a statistical abberation. This isn’t him piggybacking on superior defensive teammates. He supresses the opponents scoring when he is on the floor and he has done it every single year he’s played. It’s an undeniable statistical fact. You might not like how it looks, but you can’t change what has already happened eithet.
Calling out opponents plays and being a floor general defensively is hard to quantify. Being elite at being in the right place at the right time is an atypical way to describe good defense. But those things bring great value defensively and Jokic is next level at them.
Thank you, criticizing his defense is based on feelings more than anything. There’s no statistical evidence he’s a bad defender.
There are no good defense statistics. So this is a pretty empty statement
People have eyes, what do you mean? lol
There is statistical evidence that hes an abysmal rim defender but the problem is people equate that to the entirety of his defense since he’s a center. In every other facet of defense he’s pretty good
He’s not a bad defender maybe but he’s probably the worst defender relative to position out of any top 20 all time player
Among active players Jokic is currently ranked at 4 of the top 6 defensive seasons in BPM. Higher than any Draymond Green season. If this season was to end right now, according to BPM he would have the single greatest defensive season ever. Does that seem real? Because it shouldn’t. I believe he fits into that Steph defensive category. He’s not bad! But cmon, he isn’t some stalwart. We gotta be real about that.
BPM is not a good defensive stat. You need something with on/off possession analysis, like this
https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_30y.html
That table has Jokic as a 96 percentile defender, defender to Lebron, Kawhi, and CP 3.
It sure does lol
Jokic’s teams are consistently better on defense when he plays. That’s what the math says. Interpret that in whatever context you’d like
I agree with this assessment
what does that even mean, if you’re dominant you’re dominant doesn’t matter how you do it
steph mj lebron duncan joker - pick any 5 to beat that shit
Yeah, Luka’s never winning an MVP with MVP voters like this doing tricks on Jokic lmao
He did call Luka the best offensive player in the history of the league in the same podcast
how the fuck do you have Jokic as the best player in NBA history but not the best offensive player in NBA history?? some serious prisoner of the moment stuff going on here
Lowe pointed that out. Probably just some typical overly enthusiastic podcast takes
He clarified if you actually listened. Luka is his best because of his ability to create a play. Jokic is the best overall because he’s a center that also rebounds at an insane rate too. He also mentioned that Jokic is out there making every correct decision to win the game. But he can’t create his own shot or play out of nothing the way Luka can. If anything, it’s a reasonable take.
Thanks for the context
He doesn’t care because nobody important will call him out on it. It’s a podcast episode, he’s gonna do 10000 more and 10000 more takes are gonna fly.
Honestly I had a hard time following what he was saying and I listened to the whole thing
He also in the same interview said that Luka is the best offensive player he’s ever seen so maybe he just has white euro bias lol
Van Gundy is clearly a Redditor. Whatever happened in the last month is the best or worst thing that ever happened.
If he has that bias he’s definitely a redditor that’s this subs motto.
Like 99% of this sub
Now I see why SVG has never had a stable coaching job after the Magic with asinine takes like this.
He actually had 4 seasons as head coach/president of basketball operations in Detroit and 1 year with the Pelicans, so it’s not like he couldn’t get a job after Orlando. You can question his takes, but acting like he never had stability isn’t accurate.
And his wife’s passing in 2023 could be a major reason he’s stepped away from coaching.
imagine he had this PR when he was averaging a 35 point triple double and dragged his team to a 5th seed even tho at some point it looked like they’d be a play in team
Luka just isnt as good as Jokic
it’s honestly wild. dude has the best pr in league history
He’s never winning the MVP because there’s people performing better ever year, yes even 2023(finished third btw not 2nd), reality Lakers have to be 1 seed with decent lead to win MVP with his current stats vs the stats of Jokic and SGA
defense will always matter
Mfs will say this when it comes to Jokic, and then turn around and have Magic Johnson top 5 ever
Magic can be in someone’s top 5 and still not be on the same level as MJ or Lebron
SVG just said Jokic is better than MJ and LeBron
Thank you, this shit is not complicated at all but people treat it like rocket science lmao
And then say Steph isn’t top 10 all time solely because of his defense (but Magic will be 4th on their list, of course)
I mean imo anyone not putting Steph in top 10 for any reason is high on incredible shit
Nah, very easy to justify not having him top-10.
-guy who’s high on incredible shit
More like high on bunk. Let me tell you, go get stoned on some high quality stuff and watch Curry highlights. You’ll be instantly convinced he’s a top 5 player.
Thanks for my plans for tonight. What a great way to start Thanksgiving.
this is asinine lmao
it’s justifiable to have him in your top 10
it’s justifiable to have him outside your top 10
now if you’re putting him at like, 40 or something then there’s a very obvious problem but i would at least hear someone out even if they go down to like, 15-20. it’s not deranged to have him below 10 depending on what your personal metrics are
I mean if a guy wins 5 times and pretty much lived in the finals…I’d disregard his liabilities too. I don’t see Jokic archiving what Magic did 🤷♂️
magic was literally playing with someone that’s usually ranked higher than him all time lol
In a conference that was comparable to the mid-2010’s East
Love me some Jokic, and he’s definitely one of the best players the league has ever seen– but this is glazing, lol.
There’s a whole section of fans trying to push Jokic’s glazing to the next level, It’s not that uncommon to see dudes in this sub arguing he’s the GOAT, this whole “GOAT offensive player” is just that but with them attempting to sound a bit more reasonable
I still remember last season when fans were trying to hype up Jokic by saying that Westbrook playing better Nuggets was an indication that Jokic is a better teammate than LeBron
In the context of the clip it’s a little less extreme than the title lol
The full quote is more extreme
Nah he’s just saying that athletes tend to get better over time so you should expect a basketball player from 2025 to play at a higher level than one from 1995.
I’m not sure I 100% agree that 2025 Jokic is better than 2013 LeBron in an absolute sense but it’s less crazy than the idea that Jokic is better than 2013 LeBron relative to the standard of basketball being played
Bruh I’d take Shaq and Kareem if I needed a C in a imaginary draft to start my team
Add Hakeem to that list
Depends on the year though, don’t it?
Based on what
Jokic is not even more accomplished than Hakeem let alone top 3 centers like Kareem and Shaq. All of whom were defensive monsters.
Delusional stat watchers I tell you
3x MVP and a ring isn’t way behind 1 MVP 2 rings and 2 DPOY
2x FMVP, 2 championships, 1 MVP, 2x DPOY, 5x all defensive first team is definitely more acocmplished.
Going back to back is a big deal as well.
Fr he also lost the next year after he won. To a 22 year old Anthony Edward’s led wolves team. Not to mention a game 7 meltdown from his team that no one talks about.
Not to mention Hakeem won that after turning 31. Jokic is 30
Hakeem was a much much better defender than Jokic that it’s a joke. Look at how valuable Gobert is and he is nowhere near Hakeem as a defender. Hakeem also played in an era with way better bigs overall than the modern game. This game is for guards and wings, that’s why Embiid and Jokic thrive so much. Cause they can abuse their size and strength advantage every game with little to no resistance.
Wilt all day.
I like Jokic but this is the most clickbait thing Stan Van Gundy has said in his whole entire existence.
bait used to be believable
Blew a 20 Pt lead in a game 7 and got outplayed by SGA and gave up on his team in the following year yet he still keeps this ungodly PR
I just don’t get it
Hasn’t beaten a 50+ win team yet but LeBron’s entire career is on the line every other season
It’s insane no one ever brings that up
He’s only the best player of all time, what do you want him to do, carry?
The jokic dickeating has taught me what it must have felt like to be a LeBron/curry/kobe/duncan hater in previous times man. Like I understand he’s great but he gets dickeaten unlike anyone I’ve ever seen. You would think he is completely devoid of any flaws whatsoever for how people talk about him
Somebody deadass said if you put Jokic in place of shai theyd go 82-0 and 16-0 in the playoffs and at that point I realized arguing with them dudes is pointless.
It’s just his opinion but what a crazy thing to say, better than MJ and LeBron who were just as good offensively but also both were all time defenders and he is gonna say Jokic is better?
Stuff like this is why i eat up any and all Jokic slander and i hate myself for it lol. All time player that people are just genuinely insane about sometimes
100%. have no issue with him but his fans have made me root against him in every game
the media Joker love fest has gotta be driving Lebron crazy from the years of media fire he’s endured - Joker received zero criticism for that shit show of a Nuggets season in 23-24 and that embarrassing collapse against Minny. Actually Joker gets minimum criticism and expectation to win for a star that people hold to this level, it’s a rarity… One title… One… with all star level talent around him for nearly a decade straight, And this guys getting put above Jordan and Lebron?… stop it already
You can’t be my GOAT if you don’t really play D.
I see where he’s coming from. I’ve never seen anyone like Jokic before.
Basketball evolves and rules change. Accounting for comparison to their peers instead of players from different eras. Wilt was a center who led the league in assists one year, was insanely efficient, had a great touch, great mid range game and still was a top tier defender. So while not exactly the same, wilt did very similar things 60 years ago.
Has he tried winning more rings?
Team sport
If he is so great he can at least carry his team to the WCFs
The guy has been to one Finals in his career. The glazing has gotten to the point of heresy. Dial it back.
Why do so many people act like winning isn’t a team achievement. If Jokic joined the Thunder on an MLE, he’d go to the finals all the time. As the best player. That doesn’t make him the goat, just on a stacked team.
Lebron made 8 finals in a row, and before you come back with “competition”. Imagine if Lebron in his prime lost to 22 year old Ant Edward and Rudy Gobert in the 2nd round. Bill Simmons couldn’t go a day without talking about it
Hakeem, Shaq, and Kareem over Jokic easily still. And that’s just the centers
In the same interview he said Luka was the best offensive player he’s ever seen in the NBA. Deduction tells us that Van Gundy thinks Jokic is a dominant enough defender to make him better overall than Luka. What?!
I mean Jokic is definitely more impactful on defense than Luka
you could listen to the podcast where Zach Lowe asked him this exact question and he gives an answer?
You can’t be the best player ever and not be a 2 way player but if you said Jokic is like a top 5 player ever it’s not that crazy
he’s a top 5 offensive player of all time easily
100%. I have the top 4 offensive players as as MJ, Bron, Steph and Jokic in any order. You can argue for many others like Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Nash etc.
But imo they have more shortcomings on the offensive side of things than the other 4 do, whether it’s not impacting the rest of their teammates production as much, or not being a high volume high efficiency scorer consistently, or playing in a weak era, or having a short lived prime/peak.
White players always get glazed to the ends of the earth for being great at one half of the game and atrocious at the other lmao
Joker and Luka are the biggest examples today
Name 2 other examples lol
Cause the same can be said for kyrie, Trae etc
LOL who is putting Kyrie or Trae in the GOAT conversation? Please I want to know.
White people have been praying and dreaming for a guy like Jokic. If he can’t be the best on paper, or by accolades, they’re damn sure gonna speak it into “existence”.
Jokic, Luka and Flagg lol.
Jokic getting the Eminem is the greatest rapper ever boost for sure
I always imagined how glazed lebron or MJ would be if they were white, turns out you don’t even have to go that far lol. It “just so happens” that the most glazed player with 1 ring and no rings (Jokic and and Luka) respectively are both white. Definition of DEI boosts.
If his offense is all time great, he would have won more rings and carried his team. In playoff, he could score 45 pts in one game and next game is 15. I know he has many crazy stat games but he is not consistent to win 4 games out of 7 game series. I am not saying he can’t have a bad game but you can’t have many bad games in a series. The swing of his best game and the worst game is quite of large.
Exactly this! We saw it against OKC. He had like 3 bad games in a row. I don’t think I have seen any real superstar not step up and be dominant the next game after a really bad game.
We dick eating fr
I agree in some sense with what they’re trying to say. Athletes are getting better. Technical and strategic improvements have progressed a lot. That’s what we are seeing in track and swimming. Player development, nutrition, conditioning are much better. There’s a larger pool of people to sample from as well- so statistically, talent would also be higher.
What they left out is that we have connections to these previous generations through the long careers of players.
Lebrons first prime was during kobes. Kobe played with Jordan. Jordan played with magic, magic played with Kareem and so own.
We can literally look how these athletes stack up era over era. We aren’t going to see Marchand race Phelps in the 400 IM though.
Yeah what I don’t agree with here is “if you dropped Michael Jordan in today.” Like, OK but how are we “dropping” him? If it’s a time machine so he has no chances to learn the modern NBA then yeah he might suck, but that’s like an ice cold take. If MJ is born in 2000 and grows up learning the game as it is today then he probably is great still.
That’s the entire point of adjusting for era. Interpreting it like we time warp 90s MJ with all his same skills into 2025 is just a pointless discussion that goes no where.
If you took MJ as-is from the 90s into today’s game, he’d be a worse player playing today than the 90s. If MJ was born in the 80s like Bron, he’d most likely be an even better version of 90s MJ.
The point of adjusting for era is because most players of the past, even the best, just have no chance if you “dropped them in”.
For discussions of greatness, this is important. No reasonable person thinks Mac McClung is a “greater” basketball player than Bill Russell, even if he’s probably far more skilled.
But if the question is “which player plays basketball at the highest level”, even though it’s always going to be a modern guy, you don’t need to adjust as it defeats the spirit of the question - even if it’s a pointless thought exercise.
Like in hockey, it’s generally accepted that Wayne Gretzkey is the greatest and Connor McDavid is the best. There isn’t much of a debate around it, aside from a few fringe arguments for Lemieux and Orr for greatest and Crosby for best.
I don’t think it detracts from greatness to admit that the game moves past the pillars of our sport. We stand on the shoulders of giants, and imo we can respect their legacies and greatness without pretendjng that they could keep up - even if it really, really feels weird to say.
Also, people say modern day players would dominate the past, but how are we dropping them? Do they lose the knowledge of modern nutrition? There’s injuries that people come back from now that were damn near impossible to come back from in the past or at least would cripple your play. So if they have an injury history can I say that their career would have got cut short because they wouldn’t have modern medicine?
Has the track and field evolved that much? Maurice Green ran a 9.79 in the 1999 Olympics and this was the time for gold this last year in Paris.
Maurice was juiced to the gills bro. Regardless, the point is that the overall average has been raised, while outliers still pop up from time to time. Like a Usein Bolt, Ohtani, Phelps etc.
If the stories about Wilt are true I’d take him over any generation if all training and methods were equal.
Humans as a species haven’t evolved physically different in the last hundred years and Jokic is not the peak of athleticism lmao. You can make the argument he’s the most skillful ever at his size but in a vacuum you can call Spudd Webb or an AI that too going pound for pound.
Combine everything together MJ hit the peak for Skill, Athleticism, and Achievements to widely be considered the goat.
Which stories? Some are exaggerations but wilt was the most dominant player of all time, there is video and statistical evidence of that. He unfortunately was battling prime loaded Celtics with the greatest defender of all time (at the center position no less) with a weaker supporting cast. When he finally had healthy teammates as good or better, he won with the exception of one year that they fumbled on.
Physical tools surrounding speed, strength, and vertical. All those abilities would be multiplied today.
Example said to have a 50 inch vertical and to bench press of 500 lbs.
Arnold who met him post his prime called him the most naturally powerful man he’s ever witnessed.
Stan van gundi’s son sounds like an r nba dumbass lol
For saying that players have gotten better over time?
I was looking for a comment like this so I can point out that the best argument you have is “lol what does his son know?”
All instead of providing anything valuable to dispute the logic.
Its just recency bias. Definitely the best in the world and has the argument for the best offensive player ever (I say Steph still cause of off ball) but best ever is a bit much. Playoffs matter and Jokic still pales in comparison to MJ, Lebron, Steph, Magic, Bird….
T&F athletes have not improved that much when you account for technology. They’re not close to the 100/200m records which are from the 80s/00s. They’re getting close to the male mile record from 1999 but they have a huge advantage with the wavelights, super spikes, bouncier tracks, fitness watches, lactic acid monitoring, computer form analysis etc so should be smashing old records.
It’s estimated that Bolt’s 9.58 would be a 9.42 just adding modern equipment (not advances in training/nutrition), and the best time anyone has done since Bolt is only 9.75. They still have blood from Bolt on file that they can re-test so it cant just be that anti-doping got better.
I’ve seen authoritative voices say that Jesse Owens with modern technology would run a 9.7, and his long jump record as it was would have won a bronze in some of the recent Olympics.
And I say all this as someone who thinks modern NBA players are not getting enough credit on all time lists compared to the older ones. T&F athletes dont look any different on the track than athletes from the 80s cos it’s an extremely simple sport, while NBA players are visibly soooo much more skilled than the used to be so it’s silly to compare.
Thank you! The league is much deeper because it’s now drawing from a world pool. But to claim that evolution means that the 20 best players all played in the last 20 years is ridiculous.
MJ would be so dominant with the current rules.
Umm defense exists too
this is why I be hating on jokic despite how insanely good he is
He doesn’t play defense. You can’t be the best playing one side of the ball. This isn’t football
Everyday Stan Van Gundy’s judgment clouds him.
Most offensively-gifted 5, maybe even player, of all time? Sure, debate away. But he’s not the best all-around because of his defense. When he retires, he’s probably going to be considered top-10, but I have to give the edge to guys like Mike and Lebron, not only for their efficiency and how they dominated on offense, but both were + defenders (obviously)
What are we even doing right now?
Joker is an all timer.
He also has 6 years of All Star level play offensively all while being meh on defense.
He has 1 title.
The guy is incredible, but I wouldn’t even have him over KD or Dirk all time yet.
Recency bias is just insane right now.
Stan Van Gundy looks so much healthier holy cow.
I WANT 2018 LEBRON
Jokic and Steph are all-time great offensive payers. If only offence matters, they are both top 5 players without an argument.
If you include defence….they fall lower but are still great. Especially defence at the centre position.
Truly ridiculous how a man who has won 1 ring gets treated like a GOAT.
AD has a better resume than Jokic
AD has proven his talent on the international stage too.
I guess that kind of talent evaluation helps to explain his overall lack of success as a coach!
At some point people need to reconcile Jokic’s supposed GOAT-level impact with the relative lack of playoff success. One ring off of the objectively easiest path in NBA history, and just one series win against a 50+ win opponent.
Not saying he should be expected to solo-win a title every year, but a prime MJ/Lebron/anyone actually at that level would simply not lose a game 7 at home to a team whose best player is Anthony Edwards for example.
These shows are trying to hard to engagement bait lmao
Not even the best today
damn this thread sucks
I can see why he wasn’t very good as a GM lol
Humans dont evolve that quickly. What you are saying is that the quality of the play is a function of economics, science, and technology. That’s why you normalize stats across eras to compare. You’re able to approximate what they’d looks like under similar circumstances.
Are the people better or are the material conditions better? Having said that, I think Joker is making a strong argument for being the best ever - relative to his era which is what matters.
I disagree. A top five players is never gonna be someone who is so unathletic and such a liability on defense. He’s got great court vision and a hell of a touch for the ball. That is not gonna put him in the same conversation as Michael Jordan or LeBron James or Kareem.
I get that players are generally more skilled now. But the freedom of movement today just allows for offensive efficiency that’s insane. If SGA has his numbers at this efficiency, imagine MJ with that same (or better) whistle combined with his insane skill set.
Most people don’t just say Pippen would cook everyone today! They say in today’s game with today’s sport science, training, coaching they would be better aswell.
Not buying the evolution argument. How cares if swimming times have fallen? 40-year dash was added to NFL combine in 1999. Only 3 players in the last 25+ years have beaten the best time that year. Are we sure that the very best athletes have improved that much?
Jordan could be described as a more skilled, bigger Westbrook or a more athletic SGA with better defensive instincts than either. Hell yes, you could drop him in the league today and he would be as dominant. The spacing today would make him even more unstoppable.
I kinda get it.
Ignoring accolades and “greatness”, if every player in their prime time-traveled here for a fantasy draft, then Jokic at minimum goes higher than most of the all-time greats. I’m not saying he would easily go number one, but he would be considered for it over most of the guys in the GOAT discussion.
The conclusion that he’s the best ever definitely feels weird, as if it should easily be someone else, especially when most of the other names that are going to come up are more proven two-way players. Yet I’m having a hard time coming up with anybody outside of Steph or LeBron who I think has a peak that ridiculously high (not speaking relatively to peers, obviously).
Looking at it like a coach, he’s probably right. It just feels weird to sit down and really conceptualise how much better players are getting.
There are probably 10 guys in my lifetime I’d take over Jokic. This is getting ridiculous.
Can we wait till the dude makes a second finals lol
The stuff he does is unreal for sure, and I am fan, still that old man Wilt takes it for me. Over the years I’ve just realized how crazy that dude is and have the respect of monster goats like Bill Russel, MJ and many other for a reason. Titles, wins, long careers sure matter and it’s different aspect and topic when you rank “goats”. For Jokic, not counting titles and how it’s gonna look when he retires, and the fact that he is dominating for 5 straight years in such an obvious way - nobody is even close to what he does overall (as individual basketball player), I’d put him 2nd for now (I know, a lot of ifs, realistically probably within top 15 or 20 if I don’t ignore the usual goats). Just because on paper and on theory it’s impossible to have such a perfect basketball player, but here we are to the closest.
Wtf
Did he fall and hit his head before this interview?
I mean LeBron is still active as an all NBA player in year 22 and was absolutely better than Jokic in his prime