Why T1 should be good
Yeah, i have no clue why they changed the tiering system in poe2, makes no sense to me.
They gave a reason for it, but it’s really the type of decision you make without knowing or seeing the downsides.
Reversing tiering creates the design space for easier and less confusing affix manipulation.
Currently, we have no such mechanics, add one or two mechanics, make some slight UI improvement and nobody would complain. Like a mechanic that goes beyond the best normal tier, perfect for a krangled themed league, +2 tier to one affix, and -2 tiers to another affix.
I believe, PoE1 tiering would make such things more confusing. How can you improve T1? Do you move the whole tiering table for a specific krangled affix? Do you introduce negative tiers, like T(-2)?
Those exist in more than one way already. They go outside the tiering entirely, like the highest tier essence mods that are better than t1 are just called ‘essence’ or ‘of the essence’ with no tier listed. Also, elevated mods. If they had intentions of a system that can manipulate tiers like that, they clearly wouldn’t be stopped by something like already being at t1
They have the power to downshift mods any time. Wanna make a new tier of cast speed? Old t1’s become t2’s, this isn’t rocket science.
Did you forget about elevated influence mods
A t1 becomes a T0 once improved, just like in TLI, it is not hard at all to understand.
And what happens to an improved t0 mod?
If you are improving t0 mods you are past the point that any of this is confusing no matter which way they do it.
You know the answer
Then can switch to anything that isn’t numbers? TA TB T-fancy symbol here- T-fancier symbol here-, or just something besides tiers? Like it’s a computer game.. they have lots of freedom.
They did this on rings in like 3.23 or 3.24 didn’t they? I don’t remember what patch it was but I just remember being able to roll more than 100 life on a ring where T1 wasn’t that high before. (I’m going through patch notes, I might be making this up I cannot find anything)
They just raised the thresholds on every tier. It was a very easy transition because T1 was still the highest tier, the numbers were just higher.
If you rolled a number on what used to be T1 but is now T2 or 3, you could still easily see “oh huh this isn’t the highest value anymore, I can do better”
Whereas if it was PoE2 and we spend all this time with T9 being the highest, then all of a sudden there’s a T10 or T11 dropped that you may forget about, you might say “okay cool we hit T9, we’re happy with that” but you’re actually two stages below the top and you don’t know it just by looking in the UI.
It’s probably easier on their end to add a T10 or T11 to increase the upper end but that just creates a player knowledge gap needing to know that the new tiers exist, which all the other design decisions on PoE2 have been around eliminating a ton of Player Power related strictly to knowledge.
They did not. What you mention is just them changing the numbers of different affixes. What I used as an easy example, is adding a completely new affix on top of the pool that you could get through special means without changing the baseline.
It’s probably easier on their end to add a T10 or T11 to increase the upper end but that just creates a player knowledge gap needing to know that the new tiers exist,
It’s fixable with slight UI changes, which they mentioned they plan to do in some dev talk
Tier -1 baby, ohhh yeah.
Tier -1 still makes more sense to me. It shows you that the affix is beyond the normal range and by how much.
Tier i^2 +1
This is a solution for non-existent problem. They literally changed all life mods in POE1 3.25 without any issues.
I am talking about affix manipulation, like adding new special affixes, branching etc. Not changing numerical values of each affix.
We already have T0 for elevated mods and special essence tier for essence mods in POE1.
What if they’d introduce several tiers of elevated mods?
It can be E1 E1 E3 (E1 is the highest) and so on. Or whatever naming they come up with.
But it can’t that T7 T8 T9 are suddenly elevated. It does not make any sense. And what is even worse: for another modifier elevated tiers might be T3 T4 T5. This is very confusing.
If this was their intention they should have given a set tier maximum.
This post is not wrong. Having lower max tiers for some affixes is confusing, makes understanding the advanced tooltip showing all affixes look like some affixes were lower rolls when really they are high rolled… and you may not memorize every affix max tier level when they are all different… unless it’s 1 of the obvious sought after affixes or for your specific build.
Ah yes make the game more confusing so 2 years from now the only people in the game who actually wouldn’t be confused by the tiering have to do a little less thinking.
This is classic ggg, I love them but some times….
How can you improve T1? Do you move the whole tiering table for a specific krangled affix?
Idk why people make this out to be so complicated.. just yes?! whats the problem with this? Lets say a new patch introduces higher tiers, so everything would simply move down one tier to make space for the “new t1s”. There is no issue with this because you would still instantly know if you hit a good item by seeing T1/t2 rolls.
Also, this would be equally confusing with the current system. What happens if we introduce a new tier now? Then the new “best” will be T9 instead of T8, there is no world where this would be easier to recognize for players than moving everything down and keeping T1 mods for the highest available rolls.
Idk why people make this out to be so complicated.. just yes?! whats the problem with this?
You quoted me, and replied as if I mean introducing a regular affix.
I am talking about additional affixes that are league specific and can be obtained through specific unique means.
So if we do as you say and move everything lower, then the baseline best affix would be t2 or t3, because these additional affixes are rare and serve as a reward for temporary league.
Now you’re making even more mess, you change the whole tiering, t3 is the regular best, and then you reverse the changes after the league ends?
How about T0, T00, T000? “Tier double zero, Tier triple zero” - also sounds cool to say imo.
The dude says it like combo games don’t already do A, S, SS, SSS, SSS+, people live for this shit
How can you improve T1?
You add a modifier. Thats not T1 anymore, thats T1 + * or T1 + **. Could be any symbol. Could even be a letter. Like an Elevated stat goes from a T1 to an E. Simple.
You get all the benefits of being able to expand tiers higher and none of the confusion around the current system which without having the tables pulled up on a monitor or have memorized them you have no idea of knowing what modifier is highest tier.
It’s intendent to create less confusion but only confuses players more, especially new ones that don’t have innate knowledge from previous game how many tiers and affixes there are.
Currently it’s not decipherable without a wiki/poedb on second screen
I think it’s changed because rare items and maps go up in tier => that’s good! but if affixes go down in tier => that’s good! that’s confusing, in a sense
I mean you could just switch from tier 1 to elevated or even T1-elevated-X so you could elevate a t2 mod and it would gain the same benefits eg
T1 is 100 and t2 is 80%, each elevation adds 20% so t1e1 and t2e2 could be the same value. Plus complexity isn’t a huge issue if you are taking about endgame top tier stuff.
But also yeah, just showing 13⁄13 would be fine. That and a damn in inventory item filter so it can colour grade tiers if I want.
If they don’t want to change it, just do like T2/T7 or something
The answer seems obvious to me - the tier x drop system. You get items with a minimum tier… which is nice in the base game, and could have new parts added in expansions
Yes. People keep making this arguement but this is a UI issue that is so easy to fix. Change it from tier 6 to tier 6⁄9. Then you would know that it is essentially a tier 4 mod. And we can call it tier -3 then where t0 is the best, and GGG can keep the tiering drop system.
There could be couple of reasons but something tells me they never intended players to know what’s the top tier.
Another thing with the reverse order is that you can make new tiers easily, but this is GGG, so highly unlikely.
they literally said it would be easier to add new tiers with the current system. which sounds absurd to me. i see what they mean, as they’d have to do more work with the previous system. but its still so confusing that there is no way that’s worth it.
At minimum they need to add the tiers as fractions of the max Tier 8⁄9 Tier 12⁄13 Tier 2⁄9 so you can easily see how close it is the the top tier.
that is actually the solution that I would prefer. It would keep the upsides of the current system and add the benefit of the other system as well.
Maybe they could even figure out how to display “mod tier” “max mod tier” and “max mod tier on this item (due to ilvl restrictions)” all together in a non convoluted way.
Yeah, they just need to decouple the displayed value from the internal value. So internally adding a new tier increments the value, and on the user side the value displayed is length-i. That said, it does result in potential confusion for devs, and maybe they just didn’t want to deal with that.
Alternatively there’s no tier numbers internally but that’s even worse lol
Johnathan https://youtu.be/WjxzTAcJqAM?t=1433
This was probably an oversight, but yeah they did choose this option for occasional convenience on the dev side, unfortunately it multiplies the tedium on the player side consistently whenever crafting, which is already a pretty tedious activity to begin with.
They’ll probably (hopefully) reverse it somewhere down the line, but in my opinion they are probably not doing enough QA to let these sort of things slip for that long.
It is also consistent with the other tiers. Maps get better with higher tiers. Also, tiered magics/rares wouldn’t work in reverse.
Maps in poe1 are low to high and affixes are high to low and it’s not confusing.
Tiered rares however are confusing as hell bcus they have nothing to do with affix tiers, it’s just “bigger number = better”
It is confusing for not veteran players. They just have to show the max tier for a specific mod.
And it doesn’t answer the problem with tiered rares.
in the current system tiered rares work very well. A “tier 3” item can only roll tier 3 mods and above (with the exception for mods which have only 2 tiers, then the highest tier can still roll)
Map tiers are the ONLY mechanic that is ranked in ascending order. The solution to that would be to simply decouple map/waystone levels from the word “tier.” There are a dozen other words they could use e.g. level, depth, category, rank.
Affix tiering in ascending order can work, like for example in Last Epoch, because every affix across all item slots have exactly 7 tiers, so when someone says T6 or T7, there’s universal understanding of the power level. In poe’s system, affixes have varying numbers of tiers with no particular pattern or logic AND the same affix’s total tiers change depending on the item slot e.g. in poe2, there are 11 tiers of flat mana, but only on weapons. On helmets, only 10 tiers are available, and on boots, only 9.
When you pick up an item, it’s nice to get a quick sense of the power level of the affixes without alt-tabbing to a third party website. In poe1, the descending ordering makes it simple to determine even if you don’t know anything about the affix. If you see tier 3 or 2, you know it’s top 3. If you see tier 5, it doesn’t matter if it’s 5⁄12 (decent) or 5⁄7 (bad) because you know there are 4 tiers above it. In poe2, you see tier 5 and have no clue of the power level because it could be 5⁄7 (good) or 5⁄12 (trash). That kind of defeats the purpose of tiering!
You can tell GGG doesn’t quite “get it” when one of their justifications is that it makes it easier to add additional tiers to an affix without confusing players. Nope! Players care about the relative rank of an affix; we have not memorized the actual values of each tier of each of the 100 affixes across 10 item types. What’s T1 flat life on body armour, boots, gloves, and helmets? I have no idea and it’s largely irrelevant! I just care about getting tier 1 or 2 life on my item. If they added another tier of flat life and shifted the previous tiers down by one, I might be initially confused but you know what helps? Seeing tier 1 next to the new value and knowing instantly that it’s the best one!
Tiered items has very little to do with the mod tiers. Some mods have only 1 tier and some have like 13 and it’s absolutely not clear which mods are culled out when the tier X item drops. All we know is that Tier X items is (on average) better than Tier X-1 item.
Their stated reason was because it would be easier to add higher tiers in the future.
That must be a concern for standard because I’m not sure it would cause that much friction between leagues.
Everything must change or else.
Maybe to help new players
So when you start a new char a level 1 item will have all T1 mods instead of starting with T3 T12 T8 and so on depending on mod range tiers its more clean and tidy
T1 as max is better only for late endgame crafting
absolutely hate it.
It really only gatekeeps new players and annoys veteran players.
It makes for a system that is more future proof.
Add two tiers of items to this graph and you run into problems. Problems which can be solved, but nothing that is properly elegant and definitely could generate problems in a game that strives to not modify items with patches.
I think the current poe2 system can be addressed with more in game information and UI and still be more future proof than Poe1. Now… If they want to add more transparent information in game is a different issue.
This system is easier to adjust and manipulate in the future than something where tier 1 is considered the best and it will be more visually evidence to the end user. “I just hit a tier 18 phys damage roll!” Compared to “I hit a t1 phys damage roll with I think higher than normal stats, let me check”
Vision
Wtf am I looking at
Not all affixes have the same number of tiers and since T1 is the worst, its really unintuitive which is the “best.” T3 could be the best or T13 could be the best. Who knows.
If the best were all T1, it would be easy to tell which is the best and harder to tell which is the worst - which is less important.
So for every modification on your gear it’s given a “tier” that determines the range of numbers the mod can have. You can see this by holding alt while hovering over items. For example, a magic bow drops with a lightning mod on it. If it’s tier one, it will be called “Humming Shortbow” and have 1 to (4-6) lightning damage on it. If it’s tier ten it will be called “Vapourising Shortbow” and have (1-10) - (125 - 180) lightning damage. (Parentheses show a range of numbers rolled at item drop.)
What people are saying in this thread is that tier one being the bottom is really annoying because, while lightning damage has ten tiers, attack speed only has five tiers, meaning that in order to see if a drop has maximized potential you have to look up a list of what mods have how many tiers any given mod has and if your new piece of equipment has good potential.
This is in contrast to POE1 where it was reversed: humming would be tier ten and vapourising would be tier one. It made it easy to know if a piece of gear was optimal, or if there was something better available.
Thank you for this. I had no clue wtf was being said until ur comment lol
It’s extremely niche information that really only matters in the very late game when you’re looking to perfect a build or find things to sell.
Not really lol just when you want to compare items when you gotta upgrade gear. It becomes useful as early as the last act / early mapping
Thanks for the explanation.. I swear they reversed it because poe2 is just dying to be the exact opposite of poe1 in every way… yet this change seems so bad.
if you read it from left to right, on the bad side T1 is the worst tier and as it goes to the right the rolls get better the tier number goes up but you are left with very inconsistent variations on which tier # is the highest. on the right side, T1 is the best tier meaning its consistent across all modifiers to be easily identified without significant knowledge on how many tiers a specific affix has.
https://imgur.com/a/ixbyouy left side messy, right side clean
Population pyramid of China
I find it very ironic when Mark or Jonathan on one of the interviews admitted even GGG devs are constantly confuse tiers between each other, because they forget T1 is not the best now. The idea to flip it, so in the future GGG can easily add new tiers if needed, sounds nice, but doesn’t work in practice. There’s so much confusion and inconvenience for no reason now, I need to constantly double check on poe2db to make sure the roll is actually good.
IMO, I much rather prefer to flip it back and once upon a time if they need to add a new tier, just shift all the old ones down by one. Maybe there is behind the scenes complications to do it this way, but luckily the game is in EA and now is the perfect time to solve problems like this.
Honestly, since it is an EA environment and we’ve heard them talk about it and acknowledge it, I think it’s one of those changes that’s on a list to be changed down the line. No one likes it really including the devs
They have added and changed values of tiers many many times in poe1 and there was literally no problem… Well to be fair in standard league you would see a value difference with legacy mods when you held alt like “101 (110-120)” and a divine orb would update it… i.e. absolutely no problem.
The idea to flip it, so in the future GGG can easily add new tiers if needed, sounds nice, but doesn’t work in practice
They could have easily added new tiers by adding a symbol to the tier. For instance T1*, T1*, etc Or even use letters, like an Elevated tier could go from T1 to E. Combine the two even E would be like a godly item or something.
It really just shows they didn’t think about it much and took the path of least resistance. There are Myriad ways to add new tiers including simply adding a new bottom tier number and shifting everything else down making any legacy items with T1 mods become T2 if necessary.
If they are adding a new tier, they can simply do this logic
const maxTierNumber = 5; #change this in the future if theres a new tier
for (let n = 0; n < maxTierNumber; n++) {
const lowest_tier = maxTierNumber - n; ... const highest tier = maxtierNumber - ( maxTierNumber -1)
}
I really don’t see the reasoning of them saying it is easier to add a new tier.
Your pseudo-code makes no sense on its own, and it makes even less sense in the context of the whole game. Item mods are spread throughout numerous systems (loot generation, existing items in databases, etc.) and “easier” doesn’t have to refer to a technical challenge, to begin with.
Because it objectively is? It’s objectively less of a change to add a new tier when you don’t have to change existing tiers.
So why it would work in POE1 but not POE2?
They never said it “would not work”.
I don’t understand your argument. Tier numbers is just a sorting convention. Changing the existing tiers of a mod is no technical challenge and it’s less confusing for everyone, even the developers. The point he is trying to make with the pseudocode is that it doesn’t make logical sense to keep the current tier system because even the technical side is easy to fix. That said, that pseudocode might not work depending on how the actual code looks like, for example if the tiers are tied to enums or whatever, but still automating an addition to a tier would probably be easy work for even a junior.
Yeah this was what was always confusing to me, it seems relatively simple to just have the displayed tier and the backend tier be flipped. The only point I could kind of see is that a given mod rank from patch to patch might have different values but I think that’s a pretty small tradeoff for the clarity.
One of the main reasons they made the change was for it to be more consistent with the rest of the game. The highest maps aren’t tier 1 either.
The obvious solution that’d be an improvement over PoE 1 and PoE 2 is to display Tier/Max so you see the tier you have and the highest that can be rolled.
I think it was more due to architectural reasons in PoE1 (unable to extend tiers, which is now possible in PoE2) and an effort to unify all “tiers” in game to have same meaning (higher better). They probably can easily display them reversed for end users but question is if it won’t make things worse.
All they have to do is add T3/10 for example.
I would be equally happy with this solution
Really surprised this hasn’t been brought up more. I get some of the reasoning for using ascending tiers, but this solution is both elegant and effective.
huh? it’s been brought up every single time this issue is mentioned… since day 1.
I truly believe that more would be needed to make it as informative as just “all t1” is at a glance. If you look at a POE1 item now you can instantly know that it’s perfect or how close it is to perfection. Seeing 10⁄10, 3⁄3, 7⁄7, 5⁄5, 12⁄12, 8⁄8 takes a bit more brainpower to parse as all perfect mods compared to it just being 6xT1.
I think they would need to make perfect tiers shown in another color, so that you can still look at an item and instantly see “all gold tiers” or something along those lines. But even then it’s just plain more complicated than the old system, from the player perspective.
Really wish they did this instead of just flipping. With a fraction, you know exactly what % efficiency you are from lowest to highest roll. This gives way more information than saying T1 = best.
Yeah, it would be a lot clearer how close to best your current tier is. I suppose GGG decided to do it easy for themselves to add more tiers easily, but made it harder for player experience.
I’m pretty sure they could just convert it on the fly for the tooltip while still using the new system internally. At least that’s what I’m doing with my overlay tool.
Agreed 100%.
T1 should be the best
I like the idea of T1 being low for a variety of reasons. But when you hold down alt and inspect the tiers, it should say T1/12 or whatever the max tier is. All we need is for the info to be made accessible in game somewhere.
And item level next to it so I know what’s going to whittle before hovering over it
Poe1:
Map Tier: Tier1 = lowest >> Tier 16-17 = highest
Crafting Tier: Tier 1 = high/best << Tier 9-10 = low/bad
Crafting Rank (BenchCraft): Rank1 = lowest >> Rank3 = highest
Poe2:
Map/Waystone Tier: (same as Poe1) Tier1 low >> Tier15-16 high
Crafting: Tier 1 lowest >> Tier 5-12 highest/best
Tiered rares: Untiered rares (0-1) worst >> Tier 5 rares best
Not knowing which is the best mod tier in PoE2 is annoying, so yes they need to find a solution. But let’s stop pretending the way it was in PoE1 was intuitive or good nomenclature.
If they make the switch to T1 being the best mods, they would also need to change the tiered rares system since that was supposed to cull mods corresponding to that tier (although I think they changed how that worked in 0.2.0g). And maybe stop using the same word Tier for different systems throughout the game..
Not intuitive but it’s practical and you only need to learn it once, its a non issue. Exactly the same with vendor recipe, its unintuitive in poe1 but once you know about it you good, in poe2 the reforging bench might be more intuitive at first but then it turns into a chore. I would pick practicality over intuitiveness every day
I don’t necessarily disagree with your take.
But some of the reason for PoE2 was to make a game that would be more accessible to players that might have tried & not stuck with PoE1. This is one example among many other opaque/unintuitive systems/designs/UI that can play a part in that.
who cares if its intuitive????!??!? it takes you 1 minute to remember forever that t1 is the best. period
The literal opposite is true early on. In PoE 1, you have to remember how many tiers each different mod has to know whether your roll is the lowest tier or e.g. the 4th lowest tier.
Who care about levelling gear, when we spent majority of time at end game chasing best affix in best base gear?
GGG does. Most of the PoE 2 changes were about the campaign/low-level experience, with endgame being an afterthought.
Yea the average playerbase that never get pass campaign, most hardcore player spent at most 20 hours at campaign, then next 100 hours at t15-t18.
If no one complains about the tiering system in POE1, why does it in POE2
You’re missing some words there.
Not everyone has that though. So few people actually have 100% efficient gear, it makes dramatically more sense for the vast majority of people to understand how close they are to 100% than for the small group of people to know theyre at the top. I want to know if my gear is at 70% or at 90%, so ideally we get a fraction like T10/11
Willing to bet that this change will be made before 1.0 goes live
I agree
T1 agreeing
Even something like T6/8 would give us more info. So, when you get a T3/3, you know that’s the best tier you can get.
one of the worst changes made to the game
But then you wouldn’t know just how bad the roll you got is.
/s
the best solution i’ve heard is to add what tier out of possible tiers it rolls would do for example max life would tier “Tier 3 of 12” etc.
If they want to keep it as is they should make it where you see the tier range per mod, like “T5 of 10”
This is better, higher tier should be stronger. Every affix should say Tier X/Max instead of just Tier X
I get why they did it.. It’s easier to add new tiers on top.. However I wish each tier would show 7⁄8 or 10⁄10 etc in the new system so we just had the best of both worlds (easy for them to add new tiers, easy for us to see if it’s max).
They should just add descriptions to say “… out of x”. Ex.: T2/7 for tier 2 out of 7, T3/13 for tier 3 out of 13, etc… So it would be easier to see the max tier for an affix/a waystone and they can add higher tiers without changing what lower tiers correspond to.
Adding an indicator (icon/font color/bold/etc) for the top tier of a mod will let you keep the current system and its benefits while letting people identify the top tier easily
This is a great start but the 2nd or 3rd highest tier is often still good or valuable, not just max.
All they need to do is go “T5 of 13” when you click into the affixes. Easy. Keep the current system which does make some sense while letting players determine item value at a glance. No spreadsheet needed lol.
yep. pressing alt or whatever just needs to show tier x of y and we are all gucci
Not one person on Earth who doesn’t work at GGG thinks this was a good decision.
Perfect example of “different just for the sake of being different” bullshit.
That’s literally the opposite tho lol. Almost every other game bigger = better. It is PoE1 that went and inversed it. I wouldn’t put it last Chris that it’s because MTG tiers are also inversed.
This has been discussed to death and it’s pretty much 100% to appeal to broader audience coming in from other games.
Everyone agrees with you. No idea why they won’t swap them
Because there are several good arguments for it being the current way and NOT everyone agrees with them
What are the several arguments? The only one I’ve heard is 2>1 so 2 should be better.
However usually tier 1 > tier 2 in most things.
Literally look at the many comments in the thread you are currently in. The only decent argument FOR T1 being highest is the ease of knowing if you have an item with the highest tier. That is easily resolved by showing the highest tier on the item with the current system, which is a much simpler fix and preserves the current benefits.
Not even true… Heck it’s not even true in POE1 where mod tiers go down but map tiers go up.
I’ve said this is other threads but the solution is pretty easy to just use t13 as the highest tier and remove all the lower tiers for mods that don’t have 13 tiers. So like spell levels on wands, there are 5 tiers, you’d only have tier 9 at +1 through tier 13 at +5. Tier 1-8 wouldn’t exist. Then you can still keep the “higher is better” structure and keep the “t13 is always the best” like how last epoch does it. It also allows you to easily add higher tier mods without ruining everything else
Ahhh this is how we plant harvests in poe2
Agree
I think what’s even more of a crime, unless I somehow missed it glossing 5 times over the options, is that I can’t even check what tier something is in the game. I need to have a website open for this… POE1 was fine in this respect. Why was this removed?
Leave it to the PoE community to create the most incomprehensible graphs and charts known to man.
Bigger number better is the most intuitive way. It just needs to be made clear next to each mod what the max tier is.
Explain this to me like I’m 6
Let’s hope they make it right at some point.
I hope they address this at some point.
They said they might, they just wanted to test this so there is a good chance this might get changed back.
honestly i dont even know what there is to test. like, its such an unnecessarily convoluted and overcomplicated approach that forces you to either constantly cross referrence your item on poe2db or literally learn every single mod tier. and good luck if they introduce new tiers (which was their main reason to do it like this, because “it would be easier”). then you can relearn everything all over again lol.
absolutely no clue how this approach made it to live.
Though not as elegant as the PoE 1 style inversion, the clearest solution IMO is to simply add (of #) to the end of each – (e.g. T5 (7) or T5 of 7. You could even have it be a toggleable setting.
I’m generally for the simplest solution, but the PoE style, while better, still leaves open the question of “is that good” to anybody who’s not already familiar with the system and/or at the very endgame where T1 or T2 is the only acceptable roll.
As with most things, I would like GGG to put more emphasis on having the ability to learn the game’s systems within the game itself. Having to go poe.db or craftofexile to learn the extent of the affix system is a design failure as far as I’m concerned.
The tiering system right now makes no sense, not changing it back is just being stubborn.
When I started playing POE 2 without much experience, I never knew if what I had is good or average. There is no way of knowing. 150 Mana on a Wand is good? Can’t be bad so average? Or is it max?
Real case was me having a wand with 4 to All Skills for a while, thinking it’s max tier; imagine my suprise when I saw that there is 5 To Element Skills! How could I know without lurking in the Trade site or by experience? The same happened with a lot of inconsequential items.
It’s just plain dumb honestly
I understand their POV. But it does make it confusing for players cause we don’t know how far out it can go for tiers. Is T7 last? T12? T20? How far does it go if you’re a new player and don’t know?
I agree on the tiers thing, but if they’re rolling with the new system, why not make it tier x out of tier max(x), that would solve the confusion problem here, like showing it as T7/T9
I believe it’s because they made items to drop tiered, i.e. if you got rare unidentified item (tier 5) you know that it’s affixes will be at least tier 5 and higher. Which means we could possibly be able to filter out such items based on their initial drop tier. I stopped playing right before dawn of the hunt and don’t know wether they have added new syntax lines or not though.
If one of the affix only has 3 tiers, does this mean it can only roll up to tier 3 for another affix that goes up to t12?
If you make an unidentified item reversely(tier 3) i can easily know i can roll at least the third best roll in every affix
edit: change item to affix
That’s simply another change that they are testing in POE2 and will eventually revert. I don’t mind them testing out new stuff, but at the end of the day, if its not broken dont fix it.
If they wanted to or cared to would simply give available tier ranges on every mod so that people would know if it was top tier or not! But that would take away the mystery of how good an item is! It’s just logical the way they have tiers now as gives them the ability to add them later on if they choose to instead of moving every stat down a tier! Tier 2 stays tier 2 and so on… to go back the other way would cause way to many issues that don’t need to be!
There are ways to make it simpler and more casuals and can net you more new players, but no. Let’s just keep the most fanatical players that have more time playing than the average people.
Or another solution would be to show possibly tiers on the right side of affix when inspecting an item. Like T6 (T1-T10)
N
NGL I thought I was in r/leagueoflegends for a sec.
Bro i immediately thought the same XD
Post is poorly explained but we know T1 being the best would make it easier to tell if a mod is close to its highest roll.
I think this is something only poe1 players think. Its contrary to my experience with all other games. Poe2 was clear to me in the same manner.
I know something is better by looking at the numbers. If I’m far ahead enough to only accept the best tier and nothing else, then I can easily look that up. But 96% of the time you dont need to know of the affix in front of you is the best possible version.
This makes no sense. How do you intuitively know if it’s the best? If you see 5, does it go to 7/9/10/13?
It not a poe1 thing. It’s like a ranking system. If it was universal tiers 1-10, then it makes no difference if it’s 1 or 10 as the best, as long as it’s consistent and easily identifiable as best, second best or trash. Leaving the best as # 1 means you can easily tell it cannot get better. Add as many ranks or tiers, #1 is #1.
There is a reason the are chants like “we’re number 1”. Or taking first place. Clarity, consistency and identity are critical in a game where you are identifying 100 items a day.
What I meant is I dont typically need to know if its the best. I need to know of its better. And it works well enough for that
But… Like… Clearly you can see that if it was reversed, you would still know if it’s good AND You would know if it’s best.
Do you see how clear and concise it is? 4 T1 affixes is way easier to spot than 13/10/11/5.
I do understand it. But I dpnt think the pros of knowing X is the best makes up the con of possible modifiers on tier being worse. Stuff like +2 to tier of phys damage. Would be alot sillier to deal with. Think of it in a similar manner to enchantments in minecraft.
They are not set t X levels. Naturally sure, but you can artificially make them higher, and they follow a logical formula to be of any level.
That versatility I think is more valuable than knowing what the heighest rollable tier is. Which again, I dont think is super useful information, I can think of very few cases where you’d need to know that
I have no idea what you mean. Tiers are fixed. There is no +1 level to tier, not on maps, or in crafting, or anywhere that I know of in either game. Obviously you start to get feel for the numbers in each tier, but there are lots of times this information is useful. Omen of whittling removes the lowest tier affix, and you might as a new player look at that and see a tier 5 affix and a tier 6 affix and assume the tier six is the better one. Unfortunately tier 5 is actually higher than tier six, even though everything in your system should indicate otherwise. Because higher is higher. Tier 1 means if they add a new higher tier, they can just make it tier 1 and the rest just slide down a spot.
Casey Casem made it work for 40 years.
I also think there’s better ways to signify item utility than inversing tiers to be honest. But I doubt GGG would go that route EVER. After all, getting 4T1s but no +X to levels still makes items worthless. Knowing you have the heighest roll of an affix is not as valuable if you dont have a good sense of the impact of said affixes. Is it good info? Yes. But not the most important info missing from the game right now imo.
The reason they reversed the tiering is to allow for more tiers to be added at a later date.
If T1 is the best there’s no where to really go from there.
Uh you can still add new tiers, the old tier 1 would just become a tier 2, etc etc.
Not that difficult tbh, but is more difficult to code than just a new highest.
They changed it to allow for tiered items, which I 100% LOVE. But that being said there should be an easy way to differentiate the best tier of affix’s. Maybe a gold “T10” when something is at its highest tier, maybe silver for second best or something
Yeah didn’t understand why they switched this from PoE1.
Why does the void look like squidward wearing a hat?
I believe that keeping T1 as the cap is bad for the game. Starting from T1 is extremely easy to understand and also allows for easy implementation of higher tiers in the future without constantly having to readjust the percentage increases for the skill tree, gems, unique items, etc. I could easily add ‘+2 to all tiers of items dropped by rare monsters,’ and then I’d know that, for example, a T14 physical base damage item could drop.
Finally pointing out some real issue on this sub
Some crafters feel boring to see 6 T1 or T0 mods in a ‘so called’ god tier items. They think it is more meaningful to have a bit of t12 and some t10s and t8s.
Lover gonna love. I never argue with lovers.
LE does it well by just leveling out affix tiers, realistically there’s no reason for 13 levels of life regen except to make rares and slams worse.
I too create problems for 99% of people, in order to make 0.1% of development slightly easier for only this one thing.
Well, I’m not a POE1 player, so I’m going to share my point of view here.
I quite understand the choice for ‘T1 being the lowest’, as ‘the higher the better’ is generally the prefered approach for anything regarding growing power. One example of this is using INCREASED ATTACK/CAST SPEED instead of REDUCED ATTACK/CAST TIME. Increasing being related to ‘better’ is much more reliable, so they opt to shift tiers to this way. Also probably due to waystone tiers too. So, I think maintaining this current system is not a bad thing.
BUT
We definitely NEED a way to track what the best tier is. Even more, we need a way to tell, in game, which level the tier is related to (e.g. T4 minion level is lv78+). So I believe a good approach is to delineate the current from the maximum. So instead of +2 minion level on sceptres being T2, it would be T2/4 or T2/T4 or something like that (as sceptres can roll up to +4 minion level). Meaning that it is tier 2 from a maximum of 4 tiers. And this same +2 minion level on helmets would be T2/T2 (maximum is +2) and T2/T3 on amulets (as the maximum on amulets is +3).
My suggestion also much more reliable, as this game follows a really stable tiering system. For example, rings can roll up to +13 to all attributes, while amulets can roll up to +24. But the +(11-13) tier is T4 on rings and THIS SAME +(11-13) TIER is also T4 on amulets, totally symetrical, which I like really much (well, the loss of symetry is not a problem, but I love symetry). If T1 was the best, then the +(11-13) would be T1 on rings but T6 on amulet, which is pretty strange IMO. So, if rings had this mod as T4/T4 and amulet as T4/T9, it would be a lot more clear for me while also providing the info of ‘distance to the best tier’.
Again, I am not a POE1 player, so I might have been biased from other games. Just wanted to share my opinion. What do you think?
I find this so silly and convoluted I never played poe1 why not just make it uniform, t1 being the best for all so at a quick glance if you see T1 you know it’s the highest in the bracket would also help with seeing what best at a glance
Said this day 1 of launch, still not fixed? Daft
If it just showed like t6/t9 so we know what it is at a glance that would be fine if they want to die on this hill.
Why T1 should be bad. (Use exact same argument)
I can’t tell easily which mod is the worst tier. Why did PoE 1 have this terrible design? If only T1 was always the worst, then I’d know when I have a trash mod so much easier.
Put this effort into designing an example which gives information in a better way, not the old way. Due to one omen, lowest level mod is important, and none of this helps there. As per my example, the PoE 1 system doesn’t tell you anything about if T5 is “good” because you’ll have to search for the max tier for every example.
They did it, because programmatically is easier to add a tier than switching all existing items where that tier is modified to readjust with the new tier. I perfectly understand that side, but from user perspective it sucks, at the very least we should know for each affix/tag which is the highest because you can have one affix where max is tier 2 and other max tier is 13
People here are suggesting tier x/x but why not have a filter for item modifiers?
I will forever upvote anything related to them reverting this change. It’s fairly minor in the grand scheme of things but it is incredibly dumb for it to have been changed in the first place. Revert it already it makes no sense.
The real solution is to let us choose which way we want too see it. Ascending (t7 might be the best roll) or descending (t1 would always be the top). It would all be relative to how many affixes exist (say 7), and if it is descending it would be 7 (max tier) - 7 (actual tier) + 1.
Thank you for your contribution, sir! Why GGG did it like this instead of how they did it in PoE1 is competely mind-boggling to me.
The reason they changed the tiering system is probably because of the tiered unidentified items, a T5 unidentified can roll the top tiers of some explicits but there’s still space for some randomness, for example a T5 unidentified boot would guarantee the highest tier of movement speed if it does roll it but there’s still a lot of health and resist tiers that it won’t garantee a BIS.
The problem is reversed in the poe1 system, if you make an item that drop T5 unidentified you won’t be getting such good items as the other system, and you can’t really get closer to T1 since that would always result in having the top tiers, we can’t really have guarantees in poe, it always needs a lot of randomness and chances of being a bad item.
I think T1 should be the worst, but every affex should be at the same max (like T10) even if that means skipping affexs (ie going from t4 to t10 with nothing In-between
If they don’t make the change by 1.0, we’re doomed. Is there any argument that can be made for the current system being better/favored?
P.S. Everyone knows Tyler1 is best no has even heard of Tyler13. T1 GOOD.
LMAO
It kinda helps with dropping tiered items but I didn’t know they all didn’t go up to 9
This was the first time when I was like why did they do it like that. And nobody really seems to have problem with it. It so hard for casual player to get idea of how the item is actually good.
Yeah! That what I talked about couple months ago. It’s nonsense. Previous system was much better. You know that everything t1 is top. And even when you reroll with omens or craft with rog - it all understandable.
Yeah I hate the current tiering system
Tier 1 should equal best. For other things where higher # is better, Maps for example, don’t use Tier as a label, maybe R15 or L15 Maps.
I made a post about this day 1 of PoE2, I got downvoted to oblivion. The system sucks ass and has no need to be reversed
Looking at this image gave me an idea… The way to fix it all while keeping benefits of both sides is to use Negative numbers instead.
Example using first line:
Make T0 the best and T-8 the worst, easy to identify when you get the best item as it was in PoE1 while maintaining the logic that higher number is better as we have here in PoE2
Problem solved, you’re welcome!
Now you can even easily cull tiers that are lower than a certain threshold, lets say a tier -3 item only has affixes higher than -3, super straightforward in all cases!
That’s literally the same thing with extra steps. THACO VS AC in dungeons and dragons.
OR do like LE and have the same number of tiers for every stat
What does this intend to do for information?
They’re saying that when T1 is good, you always know if a roll is good.
When T1 is bad, you never know how good a roll is, because you don’t know how many tiers there are.
Not only that but even you knew the best tiers, you cant tell immediately if an item’s good (wtf does t8 t9 t12 t100 t11 t3 mean xd ) , opposite to 4T1 2T2 affixes in poe 1 for example
Absolutely nothing, people think the tier is more important than the stats themselves which you can easily see number is bigger. They make hypothetical drooling 3-Head people that can’t look up stats if they actually care the min-max as an argument when no average player ever looks at the tiers.
